RN Old AND New Cruiser eratta

[Monter_Trismegistos]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Not sure how we will rationalize the building of RN cruisers in the absense of the London Treaty?

You said that Edimburgh class will be 8 inchers heavy cruisers. So I proposed that you rename Edinburgh and Belfast to Surrey and Northumberland.

PS. I like British style of naming class of ships in same pattern. What I don't like is US system with naming 15 SSBNs after states and sixteenth one USS Henry M. Jackson. Or naming 49 Los Angeles type SSNs after cities and one USS Hyman G. Rickover?

[el cid again]

Isn't Cornwall a county? [Never mind it was a Kingdom until a.d. 917. They didn't even make it a principality like Wales.] Which brings up Wales - is a Principality a county? [If the Enlish were British and had not outlawed teaching Gaelic, they could read my name to mean "from the village of Ethan" in Cornwall]


There is a full entry in Conways for Cornwall - so we will use that in EBO.
We use the names only in EEO - for the improved Swiftsures (ie Edinburgh).

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Isn't Cornwall a county? [Never mind it was a Kingdom until a.d. 917. They didn't even make it a principality like Wales.] Which brings up Wales - is a Principality a county? [If the Enlish were British and had not outlawed teaching Gaelic, they could read my name to mean "from the village of Ethan" in Cornwall]


There is a full entry in Conways for Cornwall - so we will use that in EBO.
We use the names only in EEO - for the improved Swiftsures (ie Edinburgh).

Principalities and counties are different things. Like England and Scotland, Wales is split into different counties (Flintshire, Powys etc). I don't think that the RN would have named any of it's warships after Welsh or Scottish councils during the 1930's as there wasn't any previous example of it.

If the two Edinburghs are in RHS as 8" cruisers I would suggest renaming them using cathedral names in the vein of York and Exeter unless they are replaced by the final two Norfolk class. As far as I am aware the three cancelled York class cruisers did not have names assigned so it's subjective as to what the names would have been. Upgunning the Edinburghs would also 'fit' with the York class as both ships were significantly different to each other.

Without the London Treaty there's a good case that Northumberland and Surrey would not have been cancelled. IIRC their cancellation was as much due to the impending London treaty as to economic reasons.


EDIT & OT: One of my grandmother's familes was from Cornwall, maybe why she made good pasties [:D] It used to have it's own language as well.

[el cid again]

I make pasites too - although each family has a different "secret" ingredient. Cornish Gaelic nominally went extinct in 1848 - but it is now revived - but very rare. Mostly we sing in Welsh or even Irish Gaelic. Gaelic also made it to North America in prehistoric times: when David Thompson (who spoke Welsh Gaelic) reached the upper Flathead River in Montana - he was able to understand the "Flathead Indians" by using Gaelic. Exactly how that might have happened is not known?

It is possible Welsh counties might be off limits - Welsh and Corninsh people were regarded as "sub human' and "unworthy of education" until after the century turned. See either the play or the movie The Corn is Green for how and why that changed. [Seems some boy with only two years of education stood for examination at Oxford - and came in ahead of most of the students from England] On the other hand, there is the Prince of Wales. While that is a person - and the heir to the throne - Wales did make it into the name of the ship. Some honorable regiments were raised in Ireland and Wales - and of course Scotland - as well - so maybe it was not entirely unmilitary to use such names. I met a Welsh professor at the University of Hong Kong - in an English household - and we dismayed most of the guests recalling items from history (and not so far back current events) suggesting less than complete acceptance of various Keltic people - in spite of nominally being "part" of the "United Kingdom." In some ways, United depends on one's point of view. We were good enough to be cannon fodder - surely.

[el cid again]

Surrey: RN Surrey Historical final County design build because no London Treaty in EBO.
Surrey: RN Northumberland Historical final County design build because no London Treaty in EBO.
Edinburgh: RN Surrey Edinburgh rearmed with 8 inch guns due to lack of treaty restriction in EEO.
Edinburgh: RN Northumberland Belfast rearmed with 8 inch guns, same reason in EBO.
Later County: RNZN Donogol EBO renamed RNZN Leander
Later County: RN Essex EBO renamed RN Neptune Never served in PTO.
Later County: RN Lancaster EBO renamed RN Orion Never served in PTO.
Later County: RNAN Monmouth EBO renamed RNZN Achilles
Later County: RN Hampshire EBO renamed RN Ajax Never served in PTO.
Later County: RAN Sydney EBO replacement for RAN Sydney Never served in PTO.
Later County: RAN Perth EBO replacement for RAN Perth
Later County: RAN Hobart EBO replacement for RAN Hobart
Later County: RN Lincoln EBO replacement for Southampton
Later County: RN Chester EBO replacement for Newcastle
Later County: RN Hereford EBO replacement for Birmingham
Later County: RN Lichfield EBO replacement for Glasgow
Later County: RN Rochester EBO replacement for Sheffield Never served in PTO.
Later County: RN Durham EBO replacement for Liverpool Never served in PTO.
Later County: RN St Albans EBO replacement for Manchester Never served in PTO.
Later County: RN Ely EBO replacement for Gloucester Never served in PTO.

Ships replacing a given ship have the same history as the replaced ship - so if the ship never made PTO IRL - it also does not in the game.
Only in EBO are two "extra" ships built - these being the original Surreys - laid down in their original form (details from Conways) = better protected and slower County class cruisers. The "Later County" class cruisers are the Southamptons with 8 inch batteries - which IRL were 6 inch gun versions of of the Surreys as they evolved because of treaty limits on more 8 inch gun armed ships. The Later Counties replace the Leander (but not Arethusa) and the "modified Leander's" or Perth class for Australia, as well as the Southamptons themselves. But the "improved Southamptons" or Edinburghs are retained as 6 inch gun designs in EBO - and all the early Fiji's are also built in Edinburgh form. But in EEO there are only two Edinburgh hulls - and these are armed as 8 inch gun CAs - taking the names of the Surrey class from the cancelled final Counties. Uganda and Swiftsure designs are retained as such - more or less because these are better balanced ships in AAA terms - and might have attracted support during the war years. There are 3 Ugandas and 2 Swiftsures - except in EBO when Superb (renamed Tiger) also appears. [If you want confusing British cruiser naming - look at the Minetaur/Swiftsure/Tiger or whatever you wanna call it class.]

[el cid again]

HMS Phoebe has the wrong armament - principally the main battery is 8 x 5.25 inch vice 10 x 5.25 inch -
and I just figured out her history - she joined the Eastern Fleet in time for May 1944 operations - sooner than in stock or anything since.

HMS Euralyus arrived far sooner - we must change the class date - and with the wrong AA armament - but is a 10 gun ship like the class is designed to be. She should arrive at Aden about 1 Jan 1944 (she was in Trincomalee on 16 January). She gets fine radar - Early Waring, Short Range Air Search - and surface warning - but had too many quad 2 pounders and the wrong light AAA.

HMS Argunaut arrives in time to be operationg with carriers in Nov 1943 - almost a year sooner - and that forces us once again to puch the class date back. But her main armament is wrong - so we need a new class definition anyway - she looks like HMS Phoebe with 8 big guns - but these are 5.25s vice 4.5s - and like Phoebe the Q turret has a quad 2 pounder in its place. Curiously - in British parlance - Q turret should be amidships and this one should be C turret - but the AA cruisers uniformly call it Q for some peculiar reason.

Black Prince appears too soon - she was in operations when the game has her appear. She entered the Indian Ocean about 7 Nov 1944. Royalist is similar - should be about 1 March 1945.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I make pasites too - although each family has a different "secret" ingredient. Cornish Gaelic nominally went extinct in 1848 - but it is now revived - but very rare. Mostly we sing in Welsh or even Irish Gaelic. Gaelic also made it to North America in prehistoric times: when David Thompson (who spoke Welsh Gaelic) reached the upper Flathead River in Montana - he was able to understand the "Flathead Indians" by using Gaelic. Exactly how that might have happened is not known?

It is possible Welsh counties might be off limits - Welsh and Corninsh people were regarded as "sub human' and "unworthy of education" until after the century turned. See either the play or the movie The Corn is Green for how and why that changed. [Seems some boy with only two years of education stood for examination at Oxford - and came in ahead of most of the students from England] On the other hand, there is the Prince of Wales. While that is a person - and the heir to the throne - Wales did make it into the name of the ship. Some honorable regiments were raised in Ireland and Wales - and of course Scotland - as well - so maybe it was not entirely unmilitary to use such names. I met a Welsh professor at the University of Hong Kong - in an English household - and we dismayed most of the guests recalling items from history (and not so far back current events) suggesting less than complete acceptance of various Keltic people - in spite of nominally being "part" of the "United Kingdom." In some ways, United depends on one's point of view. We were good enough to be cannon fodder - surely.

Tradition is a major part of how and why RN ships are named. The Prince of Wales is the oldest male heir to the throne, and therefore the next monarch. Look at the KGV battleships, the first was named after the reigning monarch and the next was named Prince of Wales with the rest named after after various admirals.
The fact that there weren't any ships named after Welsh counties is mostly because there hadn't been any named so before. WW2 saw a lot of 'first time' names for ships as the previous ones were all used.

[DuckofTindalos]

I would submit that tradition and history dictate most navies' naming practices...

[m10bob]

Naming of Japanese and American ships:

http://www.ww2pacific.com/typename.html#jap

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I would submit that tradition and history dictate most navies' naming practices...

Bah! Tradition? Some of these other navies have only been around for three hundred years! You call that enough time to build a tradition? [:-][:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

Well, no...[:D] Can I at least include the RDN in the club?[:D]

[el cid again]

Completing just Commonwealth cruisers - I note that they alone field more cruisers to PTO than Japan does - even counting horrible old armored cruisers as cruisers. We need to add RNN and Soviet and possibly French to this listing - and of course there is the USN. Japan was really outnumbered in warships - although not in theater at the start of the war.

[DuckofTindalos]

Correct. It really is amazing that anybody in Japan's highest circles of political power thought they could win. I read somewhere how an IJA officer talked of the victory disease they'd contracted in China. Apparently their defeat at the hands of the Soviets in 1938 wasn't enough to cure them...

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

HMS Phoebe has the wrong armament - principally the main battery is 8 x 5.25 inch vice 10 x 5.25 inch -
and I just figured out her history - she joined the Eastern Fleet in time for May 1944 operations - sooner than in stock or anything since.

HMS Euralyus arrived far sooner - we must change the class date - and with the wrong AA armament - but is a 10 gun ship like the class is designed to be. She should arrive at Aden about 1 Jan 1944 (she was in Trincomalee on 16 January). She gets fine radar - Early Waring, Short Range Air Search - and surface warning - but had too many quad 2 pounders and the wrong light AAA.

HMS Argunaut arrives in time to be operationg with carriers in Nov 1943 - almost a year sooner - and that forces us once again to puch the class date back. But her main armament is wrong - so we need a new class definition anyway - she looks like HMS Phoebe with 8 big guns - but these are 5.25s vice 4.5s - and like Phoebe the Q turret has a quad 2 pounder in its place. Curiously - in British parlance - Q turret should be amidships and this one should be C turret - but the AA cruisers uniformly call it Q for some peculiar reason.

Black Prince appears too soon - she was in operations when the game has her appear. She entered the Indian Ocean about 7 Nov 1944. Royalist is similar - should be about 1 March 1945.

According to M.J. Whitley:

Your Phoebe timing is correct. She had at the time 3x4 40mm Bofors and 16 20mm (6x2, 4x1).

Euryalus arrived in 16 January 1945, not 1944. She had a refit from October 1943 to July 1944, during which Q turret was replaced by a quad 2pdr. Light AA armament after the refit was: 3x4- 2pdr, six twin 20mm, five single 20mm. Radars: 279b, 277, 293.

Argonaut, again, was sent to the East Indies in November 1944, covering raids against Sumatra in December. The ship was under repair in Philadelphia until November 1943, during which Q turret was exchanged for a quad 2pdr, then took part in D-Day off Gold Beach and Operation Dragoon in the Med. Light AA armament at the time was 3 quad 2pdr, six twin 20mm, five single 20mm.

Your Black Prince and Royalist timings appear correct.

Dido class armament is a mess - several ships entered service with other than the design armament - there were obviously manufacturing problems with the 5.25in turrets. Several ships had only four instead of five turrets - Bonaventure had a 4in gun in X position, Phoebe and Dido had a 4in gun in Q position initially. Scylla and Charybdis, of course, were completed with four twin 4.5 in shielded mounts. Many ships later lost Q turret for additional light AA guns. The standard late-war armament seems to have been 4x2 5.25 in turrets, 3x4 2pdr or 40mm Bofors, 6x2 and 5x1 20mm.

Edited for typo.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Correct. It really is amazing that anybody in Japan's highest circles of political power thought they could win. I read somewhere how an IJA officer talked of the victory disease they'd contracted in China. Apparently their defeat at the hands of the Soviets in 1938 wasn't enough to cure them...

They probably figured (correctly) that we (the UK) were distracted with higher priorities elsewhere.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Correct. It really is amazing that anybody in Japan's highest circles of political power thought they could win. I read somewhere how an IJA officer talked of the victory disease they'd contracted in China. Apparently their defeat at the hands of the Soviets in 1938 wasn't enough to cure them...

Two stories:

Cdr Takishi Hara wrote in Japanese Destryer Captain that when he heard of the decision to go to war - he believed it was "almost impossible" for Japan to win. At that time he estimated destroyers must sink 8 destroyer for every one lost to "break even."

The author of a history of Japan - who had condiserable Japanese help - got it because of personal connections with a US Navy Captain who was a lifelong friend of an IJN Navy captain. [I thin the story is in the introduction to Japan's Imperial Conspiracy] The two captains had been stationed together several time over decades - and knew each other's families. On the first day of the war the IJN officer told his daughter "We will surely lose. I will surely die. After the war is over, my friend will come and find you." In 1945 the USN officer - who had no communication for the duration from his friend - went searching for the Japanese girl. He found her in a rice paddy - having not seen her since she was a little girl. He introduced himself "I am captain ..." She replied "I know - my father told me you would come."

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: mikemike

ORIGINAL: el cid again

HMS Phoebe has the wrong armament - principally the main battery is 8 x 5.25 inch vice 10 x 5.25 inch -
and I just figured out her history - she joined the Eastern Fleet in time for May 1944 operations - sooner than in stock or anything since.

HMS Euralyus arrived far sooner - we must change the class date - and with the wrong AA armament - but is a 10 gun ship like the class is designed to be. She should arrive at Aden about 1 Jan 1944 (she was in Trincomalee on 16 January). She gets fine radar - Early Waring, Short Range Air Search - and surface warning - but had too many quad 2 pounders and the wrong light AAA.

HMS Argunaut arrives in time to be operationg with carriers in Nov 1943 - almost a year sooner - and that forces us once again to puch the class date back. But her main armament is wrong - so we need a new class definition anyway - she looks like HMS Phoebe with 8 big guns - but these are 5.25s vice 4.5s - and like Phoebe the Q turret has a quad 2 pounder in its place. Curiously - in British parlance - Q turret should be amidships and this one should be C turret - but the AA cruisers uniformly call it Q for some peculiar reason.

Black Prince appears too soon - she was in operations when the game has her appear. She entered the Indian Ocean about 7 Nov 1944. Royalist is similar - should be about 1 March 1945.

According to M.J. Whitley:

Your Phoebe timing is correct. She had at the time 3x4 40mm Bofors and 16 20mm (6x2, 4x1).

Euryalus arrived in 16 January 1945, not 1944. She had a refit from October 1943 to July 1944, during which Q turret was replaced by a quad 2pdr. Light AA armament after the refit was: 3x4- 2pdr, six twin 20mm, five single 20mm. Radars: 279b, 277, 293.

Argonaut, again, was sent to the East Indies in November 1944, covering raids against Sumatra in December. The ship was under repair in Philadelphia until November 1943, during which Q turret was exchanged for a quad 2pdr, then took part in D-Day off Gold Beach and Operation Dragoon in the Med. Light AA armament at the time was 3 quad 2pdr, six twin 20mm, five single 20mm.

Your Black Prince and Royalist timings appear correct.

Dido class armament is a mess - several ships entered service with other than the design armament - there were obviously manufacturing problems with the 5.25in turrets. Several ships had only four instead of five turrets - Bonaventure had a 4in gun in X position, Phoebe and Dido had a 4in gun in Q position initially. Scylla and Charybdis, of course, were completed with four twin 4.5 in shielded mounts. Many ships later lost Q turret for additional light AA guns. The standard late-war armament seems to have been 4x2 5.25 in turrets, 3x4 2pdr or 40mm Bofors, 6x2 and 5x1 20mm.

Edited for typo.

Our arrival times in RHS are time calculated to INCLUDE transit from the map edge point of appearence. If they appeared at Panama or Aden or Capetown this is fairly easy - but we back date to New Orleans in Level 7 - so you can go down the South Atlantic to the Indian Ocean or via Panama to the Eastern Pacific - and the Japanese player cannot know either when or where the ship will arrive. That said - it is good to have as many points of location and date as possible - and there are even cases where contradictory data is out there - so it is nice to see a constellation around one or the other date. For example - rereading materials closely I conclude one must have a typo for Argunaut - and it should indeed be 1944 - as the operations described seem to be those of 1944.

Dido is indeed so messy we almost treat each ship as a separate class (there are two in one sub class I think). Even if built with 5 turrets - many of them lost one later on. And you are correct - the problem was related to slow delivery of the 5.25 inch turrets. These were remarable things - and several navies - before, during and since WWII - tried to do the same thing with 5 and 6 inch - with very mixed results. The first such effort - triples on a French BB - failed. The later efforts (USN and RN) took so long they missed the war - and were too expensive. Only the Dutch kind of sort of succeeded - and they took the cheap route of not using power ramming in the pre war form - resulting in adequate elevation and training - but a slower ROF - so a marginal result. The 5.25 was a brilliant compromise - just big enough to be high performance - but not too big to make into a practical twin turret you might afford - and develop before the war. Yet it was never easy to do this task - and the superb guns served a long time after the war. Today only Italy and Sweden make guns in this class - both 127mm - and only in singles. USN has given up - in spite of the DP liniage of the 5 inch 54 (and the version I served with achieved 42 rounds per minute) - reliability was horrible (just over 50 per cent) - and cost was very high (those guns actually firing shells weighing more than WWII era 6 inch). Anyway - the Didos are cool ships - so we have treated them individually instead of as a real class. Japan seems to have devised a 5 inch that was superior late in the war - and did an Army 149mm and a modified Navy 152mm (and even a modified Navy 203mm) - all in single turrets - with as much trouble as everyone else had. [Two 203mm single AAA turrets were found covered by brush in a park in Singapore not long ago - the first time it was known they were attempted] Pre war RN 8 inch and RNN 6 inch were limited success heavy DP guns - partly because this should not be attempted by twins to be able to traverse fast enough. The Swedes and Italians have it right - as do the French with a superb 100 mm (copied by China) - do them single. The 5.25 inch twin is probably the biggest really successful DP turret design ever done. The Worcester 6 inch work - as do post war RN 6 inch twins - but they really cost too much.

RN and CW navies appear not to have had the attention devoted to cruisers that IJN, USN and RNN (and in RHS also Soviet Navy) got. Almost every error was not CHS - but tracable all the way to stock - so that is the problem: stock had too little time devoted to data research/entry - and a case like this - treating all Dido as the same - was very unfortunate.

[Dili]

British didn't rated 5.25" much. 100mm French Gun is probably dead. New French Frigates/Destroyers will have the ubiquous 76mm Oto-Melara (Italian). Western Guns are probably reduced to Italian 127mm(with Vulcano long range projectiles) and 76mm from OTO plus Swedish Bofors 57mm, US 127 mm also still gets some sells.

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

For example - rereading materials closely I conclude one must have a typo for Argunaut - and it should indeed be 1944 - as the operations described seem to be those of 1944.

The same appears to have happened to the Euryalus data - off by exactly one year.

Today only Italy and Sweden make guns in this class - both 127mm - and only in singles. USN has given up - in spite of the DP liniage of the 5 inch 54 (and the version I served with achieved 42 rounds per minute) - reliability was horrible (just over 50 per cent) - and cost was very high (those guns actually firing shells weighing more than WWII era 6 inch).

There is one modern DP gun you omitted: the Russian AK-130 twin. Apparently, the Russians are keeping the faith; they have always put great store in their artillery. In both World Wars the German military had enormous respect for Russian/Soviet artillery - both the guns and their handling - both Army and Navy. If you read about naval skirmishes in the Baltic in WWI there are lots of remarks like "the Russians displayed their usual excellent gunnery".

[Dili]

Odly they had to get Italian Yards and Naval Weapon makers cooperation in 30's. Fascists and Communists trading while both were fight in Spanish Civil War... Taskhent DD, Kirov patrol ships for NKVD, Kirov Cruisers and the not finished Soviet Heavy Battleship.