Communique from AGEOD on World War One Status

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: DBeves
I dont think they should be getting plaudits - as they are on their forum - for implementing what should be a basic consumer right. the fact other companies dont do the same doesnt alter that fact....

Basic consumer rights is a phraze as hollow as the inside of a balloon and almost totally meaningless in the game software world - and everyone knows it. So when a company actually, in an almost unprecedented way goes totally against the grain and actually does the right thing some people still find that not worthy of at least a nod and a "well done" ???

<boggle>

Well, there ain't no pleasin' some people.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Gresbeck]

1) AGEOD is french. European & U.S.A laws are pretty diffferent.
European Customers are less protected than amercicans.
In Europe, "Refund option" really sounds different than in U.S.A.

O.K. Angelo, in principle I could agree with you, but let's not depict European and Italian Law as if we lived in the age of stone. I'm a lawyer and you can trust me. We have a European directive about protection of consumers, and there is no doubt that even under our old European Law every customer has the right to give the product back and to have his money refunded, when it's proved the product doesn't perform its function. I trust Calvinus and Ageod. I think in the future we'll have an excellent game, but there is no doubt that AGEOD has promised nothing more than respecting the law.

[tevans6220]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: DBeves
I dont think they should be getting plaudits - as they are on their forum - for implementing what should be a basic consumer right. the fact other companies dont do the same doesnt alter that fact....

Basic consumer rights is a phraze as hollow as the inside of a balloon and almost totally meaningless in the game software world - and everyone knows it. So when a company actually, in an almost unprecedented way goes totally against the grain and actually does the right thing some people still find that not worthy of at least a nod and a "well done" ???

<boggle>

Well, there ain't no pleasin' some people.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

Geez Eddy I guess it's okay for me to rob you and keep your money as long as I say I'm sorry. Bottom line is they screwed the pooch by releasing an unfinished product and for many a non-working product. Apologies, assurances and offers of refunds doesn't change that fact. Praising them for their communique seems a little odd to me. It's like praising failure or mediocrity. It's like saying "Oh thank you for screwing up. Way to go." Ageod are a bunch of good guys and I have no doubt that they'll make it right. That still doesn't change what happened. As a consumer I expect nothing less than apologies, assurances and offers of refund for a faulty product. As you said it's totally meaningless in the game software world but they better wake up. The gaming industry needs me a whole lot more than I need them.

[DBeves]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: DBeves
I dont think they should be getting plaudits - as they are on their forum - for implementing what should be a basic consumer right. the fact other companies dont do the same doesnt alter that fact....

Basic consumer rights is a phraze as hollow as the inside of a balloon and almost totally meaningless in the game software world - and everyone knows it. So when a company actually, in an almost unprecedented way goes totally against the grain and actually does the right thing some people still find that not worthy of at least a nod and a "well done" ???

<boggle>

Well, there ain't no pleasin' some people.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

I'm sorry - but I pay my money for a game that AGEOD knowingly knew didnt work and I have to thank them for offering me a refund ? I hear where you are coming from but to thank them for it is to accept the morality of not giving me one ... which I dont... I tend to look at the world in terms of what it should be and not what it is ...

[Stwa]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Oh please, of course it was marketing. AGEOD made a conscious decision, for the sake of their sales, to release this game on 11/11. Don't think it was anything else. It wouldn't have been a problem if they'd released a finished product, but they didn't.

And I'm pretty sure that consumer protection in Europe is a lot better than in the US.

Maybe, but me thinks the release date was a MONEY decision, not a marketing decision. Hence, the "pre-release" of about 30 days duration. (maybe shorter). There's really no marketing magic behind the 11/11 date. Heck, my kids were out of school that day so getting on line and buying something was not really in the cards. Know what I mean. [;)]

Plus they probably already had the box sets waiting for the CD's.

[:)]

[Prospero]

Apology accepted!

There is a lot of work to do for you guys, but after reading the communique, I am sure you'll work on enhancing the game.

I have already bought and played WWI. The map is beautiful (but I don't understand why the map is turned by 45° counterclockwise) and the game concepts show a very large potential for a very good game. Since it's crashing alot I wasn't able to play more than two or three turns in a row. Also, the game often misinterprets my movements and does different things than I want it to do. Moving an army is pain, as well as changing army compositions. I would appreciate a "left mouse click -> activation" and "right mouse click -> action" type of interface, so I don't end up moving armies to locations I don't want them.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

Basic consumer rights is a phraze as hollow as the inside of a balloon and almost totally meaningless in the game software world...

Actually, Eddy going on the warranty included with AGEOD's ACW, AGEOD does not include the standard software clause that protects the company from faulty code.

That is unique!

Therefore, if any customer who bought this game from AGEOD, Matrix, Amazon etc., wants a refund due to bugs, they can claim under warranty on this one within 3 months. After that, local law kicks in.

I don't have the WW1 warranty wording but someone here might want to confirm this.

What's the bet AGEOD changes this disclaimer forthwith if so [;)]

[Adam Parker]

I'll delete this one and replace it with something positive:

We at least still have the GMT boardgame "Paths of Glory"... they've just expanded that one into the Middle Eastern/Turkish theatre.

Happy gaming [:)]

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
Actually, Eddy going on the warranty included with AGEOD's ACW, AGEOD does not include the standard software clause that protects the company from faulty code.

Actually that standard clause is totally bogus and is totally trumped by European Union consumer laws anyway. The thing is that nobody takes a games developer to court, with all the costs/time involved in doing so, if the most you can get in damages is the price of the game itself.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Stwa]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
Actually, Eddy going on the warranty included with AGEOD's ACW, AGEOD does not include the standard software clause that protects the company from faulty code.

Actually that standard clause is totally bogus and is totally trumped by European Union consumer laws anyway. The thing is that nobody takes a games developer to court, with all the costs/time involved in doing so, if the most you can get in damages is the price of the game itself.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

That's right, it would be like trying to sue Pizza hut for a couple of lousy pizzas. But, if you could prove substantial psychological damages (shouldn't be too tough), then maybe you could drain a little cash out of em. [:D]

[JudgeDredd]

Well, in the words of Adam, I must be one with no brain, no commonsense and the inability to think for myself, being as I disagree with Tevans6220...mmm...[&o]
&nbsp;
However, the point I was making wasn't kissing their arse. It was in DIRECT response to something that doesn't happen in the software industry...period.
&nbsp;
You may think it does, but there are laws that counter laws that counter laws and the end of it is, the guy down the bottom, for whatever reason, doesn't get jack. This is particularly the case in the world of software. Just look at your legel right (in Europe at least) to be allowed to make a physical copy of your purchased software for your own use, completely trumped by copyright law!!!
&nbsp;
Anyway, it was more to do with the fact that they have made a public apology and offered a refund. So you think they released it early. Who is to say the Beta testers did not report all ok??? AGEOD may have been aware of some "minor" issues prior to release as is almost always the case with new games, but seldom are games "knowingly" released with game breaking bugs.
&nbsp;
My instinct tells me they were unaware of the main show stopping bugs, for whatever reason.
&nbsp;
Regardless of what I think. AGEOD is a company that generally makes/publishes quality software and takes care of their software after release. I expect this will be no exception.
&nbsp;
But that is all my opinion, and of course you are entitled yours. I'd just rather people wouldn't brand "one group" of people with a brush simply because "the other group" fits their requirements...Adam.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Stwa

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
Actually, Eddy going on the warranty included with AGEOD's ACW, AGEOD does not include the standard software clause that protects the company from faulty code.

Actually that standard clause is totally bogus and is totally trumped by European Union consumer laws anyway. The thing is that nobody takes a games developer to court, with all the costs/time involved in doing so, if the most you can get in damages is the price of the game itself.

That's right, it would be like trying to sue Pizza hut for a couple of lousy pizzas. But, if you could prove substantial psychological damages (shouldn't be too tough), then maybe you could drain a little cash out of em. [:D]

I don't know about other countries but "moral damages" awarded by courts over here are usually for the substantial amount of 1 euro - no kidding - as to other kinds of damage : you'll have to prove a) actual damage and b) a causal link between that damage and the product. In the case of Pizza hut their lawyer would probably claim you were insane *before* you went and got a pizza there ... and win the case [;)]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
... As you said it's totally meaningless in the game software world but they better wake up. The gaming industry needs me a whole lot more than I need them.

Exactly why I and others recognised what they did....they went against the norm and came clean. Fine...bash away because it's what you expect, but you don't get that in the software world...and tbh, if people carry on acting this way, it probably won't happen again. What would be the point of issuing an official apology and promise of patches or refund if your going to get the same god damned headache you'd have gotten without doing such.

And as Eddie said...it just doesn't happen in the world of software. I agree with you it should, but it doesn't.

[Adam Parker]

Aw wasn't directed at you Judge [:)]

Good riposte above though in that first line [:D]

Hell - and in all this we get side-tracked from remembering that this should just be a game, that should be allowing us to pit our comfy chair-bound strategic minds, across an event memorialized this week of such epic magnitude in human carnage, that this whole game-quality debate becomes ludicrously sureal.

So shamedly unncecessary. That's what the apology should be for.

Lest We Forget.

[JudgeDredd]

No I know Adam. [:'(]
&nbsp;
I just thought it was worthy of recognising the Communique for what it was...aomething that just doesn't happen in the world of Software.
&nbsp;
I do agree that it should happen...but it doesn't and I thought it was worth appluading him for "stating the expected" if not the obvious.
&nbsp;

[tevans6220]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
... As you said it's totally meaningless in the game software world but they better wake up. The gaming industry needs me a whole lot more than I need them.

Exactly why I and others recognised what they did....they went against the norm and came clean. Fine...bash away because it's what you expect, but you don't get that in the software world...and tbh, if people carry on acting this way, it probably won't happen again. What would be the point of issuing an official apology and promise of patches or refund if your going to get the same god damned headache you'd have gotten without doing such.

And as Eddie said...it just doesn't happen in the world of software. I agree with you it should, but it doesn't.

Who's bashing? All I'm saying is you don't praise failure or mediocrity. Going against the norm and coming clean doesn't change what happened. They released a game that wasn't ready for release. Ageod is a good bunch of guys but they don't walk on water and in this case they screwed the pooch. While their communique and offer of refund might seem classy to you, I see it as nothing but C.Y.A. They want to protect their reputation for future sales. Nothing wrong with that but I refuse to praise them for it. I don't really see where they did anything that went above and beyond. They screwed up and no amount of apologies, assurances or offers of refunds can change that. Do you know why the gaming industry is the way that it is? It's because people accept it. When you accept garbage, garbage is all you're going to get.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
What would be the point of issuing an official apology and promise of patches or refund if your going to get the same god damned headache you'd have gotten without doing such.

Exactly.

Everyone promises patches - promises are cheap - but no-one in living memory ever offered a refund and publicly apologized for a fubar'ed release.

Protect their good name ? No doubt that's part of the equation made, but if it's that obvious and easy : why aren't other developers/publishers doing it as well ? Most will go into a "state of denial" where people complaining about the game are either ridiculed or ignored until they go away.

If now nobody stands up and basically says that although the release was a fubar, publicly admitting a screw-up is a class act, than what's the point of doing it if it only attracts *more* flak coming your way instead of less ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
All I'm saying is you don't praise failure or mediocrity.

The distinction we seem to make and you don't is that we don't praise the failure, but the act of publicly admitting it was a failure. Major difference.

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
I don't really see where they did anything that went above and beyond.

So in that case I don't doubt that you can give us plenty of examples of developers with fubar'ed releases who did the same.

Waiting for that huge list ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
... As you said it's totally meaningless in the game software world but they better wake up. The gaming industry needs me a whole lot more than I need them.

Exactly why I and others recognised what they did....they went against the norm and came clean. Fine...bash away because it's what you expect, but you don't get that in the software world...and tbh, if people carry on acting this way, it probably won't happen again. What would be the point of issuing an official apology and promise of patches or refund if your going to get the same god damned headache you'd have gotten without doing such.

And as Eddie said...it just doesn't happen in the world of software. I agree with you it should, but it doesn't.

Who's bashing? All I'm saying is you don't praise failure or mediocrity. Going against the norm and coming clean doesn't change what happened. They released a game that wasn't ready for release. Ageod is a good bunch of guys but they don't walk on water and in this case they screwed the pooch. While their communique and offer of refund might seem classy to you, I see it as nothing but C.Y.A. They want to protect their reputation for future sales. Nothing wrong with that but I refuse to praise them for it. I don't really see where they did anything that went above and beyond. They screwed up and no amount of apologies, assurances or offers of refunds can change that. Do you know why the gaming industry is the way that it is? It's because people accept it. When you accept garbage, garbage is all you're going to get.

Ok...bashing was the wrong choice of word

You've made your opinion clear and that's fine. I was just trying to explain why I said what I said.

And I don't accept garbage. [;)]

[Erik Rutins]

Guys, I'd like to clarify one thing here. As far as I know, AGEOD did not know about the vast majority of these issues before release. For whatever reason, they didn't come up in pre-release testing. While they did try hard to make the November 11th Release, I'm confident they would have waited longer if they had known.

With that said, I know they are working hard to fix these as quickly as possible post-release. Computers and programming being what they are, I think it's equally important to have good post-release support as good pre-release testing.