Major Naval Problem

[larrywrose]

We just found out in my game that if you loan a fleet to an ally that is not at war with someone that those fleets are immune to interception and attack. In other words if Great Britain and Spain are at peace, France can loan his Fleets to Spain during the Reinforcement Phase, and Spain can run the blockades without a fight. Also Great Britain can not even attack the French fleets during his naval phase. I assume this is a bug. One of the ways I can see this being abused for example is if Spain were to declare on England with the English Fleet out of position to clear the channel, Great Britain could loan the Channel Fleet to say Prussia to keep France from crossing the channel.

If this has been addressed before I apologize for missing it.

Thanks
Larry W. Rose

[eske]

This is a major problem.
 
I think this should be compared with fleets transporting an other nations land units. It can be attacked by fleets at war with either the owner of the fleet or the owner of the land units. But take note that the transporting fleets can only attack other fleets at war with the owner of the fleets!
 
In other words I suggest this rule: Loaned fleets can be blocked or attacked by nations war with either the owner or the nation controlling the fleets. But they can only block or attack fleets at war with both the owner of the fleets and the nation controlling them.
 
Plz tell if this leaves or creates any funny business or loop holes...
 
/eske

[larrywrose]

Lets make things more interesting. I was going to try the following.

1)Spain Surrenders to Great Britain

2)Durning the next turn France loans Spain the French Fleets and several French Corps.

3)Spain drops off the French corps from the French Fleets into Great Britain. Spain has 3 months of access.

I was going to look to see if that could be pulled off. Instead I found the following.

Because the French navy was in Holland when I tried this, and I forgot to grant access to Spain, the French navy was moved to Spain. Part of it disapeard. I decided to move the French Navy back to France to try it again. As you can see from the file I uploaded Spain has just surrendered to Great Britain. The English fleets will attempt to intercept the Spanish controlled French fleets. I figure that is good. However I reloaded the turn, and then Stacked the Spanish Navy with the French Navy. The English Navy again intercepts and fights both navies. I believe it should ignore the Spanish navy.

Oh, I am using 1.03.14

Thanks
Larry W. Rose

[DCWhitworth]

This has been reported as bug 298 in Mantis, albeit this was for land units, but the principle is exactly the same. Doesn't look as if it has been addressed yet.

On the other hand this is something that should be termed an 'exploitable bug' I think. Yes it could cause issues but in the vast majority of cases you would have to knowingly exploit the loophole which is pretty much cheating in my book.

[eske]

ORIGINAL: larrywrose

Lets make things more interesting. I was going to try the following.

1)Spain Surrenders to Great Britain

2)Durning the next turn France loans Spain the French Fleets and several French Corps.

3)Spain drops off the French corps from the French Fleets into Great Britain. Spain has 3 months of access.

I was going to look to see if that could be pulled off. Instead I found the following.

Because the French navy was in Holland when I tried this, and I forgot to grant access to Spain, the French navy was moved to Spain. Part of it disapeard. I decided to move the French Navy back to France to try it again. As you can see from the file I uploaded Spain has just surrendered to Great Britain. The English fleets will attempt to intercept the Spanish controlled French fleets. I figure that is good. However I reloaded the turn, and then Stacked the Spanish Navy with the French Navy. The English Navy again intercepts and fights both navies. I believe it should ignore the Spanish navy.

Oh, I am using 1.03.14

Thanks
Larry W. Rose

Interesting scenario.

Question to your final comment: Shouldn't the English Navy intercept all flleets carrying french corps, including the spanish?

In any case for my suggested rule above to work properly, an addition would be needed to handle this special case:
Any fleet transporting units may be intercepted, blocked or attacked by fleets at war with the owner of the transported land units OR the nation currently controlling them.

I haven't tested which parts of "my rules" already is or is not followed by the game. So please continue testing... [:)]

/eske

[MarshallEllis]

Wow???!!!
I will have to look at this one.
The Spanish should not be able to drop the French in but this will require some thinking on how to police this???
 

[bresh]

I notiched another "Naval" bug.
Playing Turkey in a pbm-game, Spain lend me Naples fleet, and i have access to Spain as Turkey, but the "Spanish-Freestate"-Naples, cant enter Spanish ports while lend to Turkey ???".
It can enter its own Naples-Freestate ports.


Regards
Bresh

[bresh]

Since im not on mantis, any idea if the free-state- navy bug been reported.

I notiched another "Naval" bug.
Playing Turkey in a pbm-game, Spain lend me Naples fleet, and i have access to Spain as Turkey, but the "Spanish-Freestate"-Naples, cant enter Spanish ports while lend to Turkey ???".
It can enter its own Naples-Freestate ports.

Regards
Bresh

[MarshallEllis]

Cannot see it??? Do you have a save?
 

[bresh]

Only have the savegame from some phases later not the actual.
 
I know in a earlier naval phase the fleets could enter Turkish controlled ports when lend, but not sure when we upgraded between 1.02 1.03 and 1.04, though the lend Spanish-owned-fleets jumped out of the port, even with access to Turkish.
 
My best guess is this incident happend with 1.03.
 
Regards
Bresh

[MarshallEllis]

Check it out in 1.05 which should be in BETA shortly...