NOMAD VS BIGBABA..or "who gets the best place at the beach of rabaul?"

[xj900uk]

One of the main problems of the Val was it's light bombload - it usually carried 1 x 250 kg bomb or 4 x 60 kg ones (unlike the SBD who could carry a 1000 lb load OK).
250 kg AP bombs actually did a good deal of success, particularly to wooden-decked CVs's thoughout the war (there is clear evidence that heavier ones sometimes passed clear through the CVE's without exploding!) but 60 kg bombs let's face it were just not heavy enough even for a small CVE

[borner]

I wonder how many dents or scratches in the pain it takes to equal 1 sys damage point  [:D]

[xj900uk]

On the other hand, 2 x small 60kg bombs on the Lexington at the Battle of the Coral Sea started small fires which got out of hand with quite spectacular results (although you could also argue that two torpedo hits + some near misses caused enough seams on fuel tanks to rupture which lead to the build up of lethal avgas fumes, eventually being ignited by the two small fires)

[HansBolter]

I've often seen people brush off the significance of of 500lb bomb hits on BBs since they don't penetrate the deck armor, but they certainly do destroy their fair share of secondary and AA gun mounts and have the potential to start plenty of fires that can add up to considerable system damage even if they never threaten to sink the mother.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

On the other hand, 2 x small 60kg bombs on the Lexington at the Battle of the Coral Sea started small fires which got out of hand with quite spectacular results (although you could also argue that two torpedo hits + some near misses caused enough seams on fuel tanks to rupture which lead to the build up of lethal avgas fumes, eventually being ignited by the two small fires)

Not say that this is definitive but I doubt the 60kgs had much to do w/ the Lex's sinking.

http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/mc/museum/War_Damage/16.pdf

[xj900uk]

Thanks for the link. It is definite that 2 x 60 kg bombs from the Vals hit the Lexington, but whether they had much to do with the fires getting out of hand is subject to debate. Definitely the leakages in the avgas fuel tanks were caused by either the whip from the near misses or else the two torpedo hits
I did read somewhere (can't remember where,a few years ago) that the blame was attached not to the fires but more the fumes building up inside the ship. Damage control were aware of this and decided to try and vent the ship by blowing some of the fumes out via air-extractors. However one of the dynamo/motors they started up was sparking, possibly due to shock-wave damage caused by earlier hits or near-misses and it was this that ignited some of the avgas vapour

You can draw some comparison with the Lexington's fires getting out of hand and the fire/sinking of the Princeton at the Battle of Leyte Gulf, where it was hit by one determined D4Y Judy probably with a 250 kg AP bomb. That created a fire which proved impossible to put out until it touched off the CVL's torpedo store with devestating results

[bigbaba]

its realy amazeing how even japanese crack pilots suck in mid-43. in our "great CV battle turn", 20 bettys and 13 nells with 70+ XP crews  (well escorted by A6M3 fighters) managed to break through the US CAP and attack the allied CV-fleet with the essex and the victorious. in 1942 they would for sure hit both CVs and even sink them, but in 1943, they had only one torpedo hit on a CVE.

[xj900uk]

The experienced IJN pilots rarely had a good crack at the US CV's even in 1942.

At the Coral Sea it was Shokkaku and Zuikkaku (sorry if I've spelt them incorrectly) which were the newest and most inexperienced of the airgroups. If I recall they hit the Lexington with 2 x 60 kg AP bombs + 2 torpedos (some reports say only 1) althuogh worth noting that two torpedos went completely under the Lady Lex because they were runnign at the wrong depth which I think is the fault of the armourers who set the depth settings wrong and not the pilots. Yorktown hit by 1 x 250 kg bomb which sliced down as far as the boiler rooms before going off, doing a lot of damage.

Midway - only the Hiryu got a strike off against the carriers, and you have to remember this comprised of planes and pilots who had already flown and fought once that day and so were already tired, many of whom were taking out damaged planes. I seem to recall the leader of the strike (Fuchiada?) had holed fuel tanks in his Kate from earlier flak damage over Midway, he knew he wouldn't be coming back but still went regardless. As it was out of 18 Vals 3 scored hits, (16.67% success rate) and from the ten Kates that flew 2 hit home (20% success). Hiryu though was one of the four elite carrier units, if the smallest.

Battle of the Solomons, September '42. Interesting the IJN threw in about four large and small carriers against the USN's three in order to try and reverse the damage done at Midway. Some say the Rjujo acted as a sacrificial goat in order to attract the US strikes with the bigger carriers coming up behind (others despute this). As it was out of the initial strike out of 21 Vals from S&K again 3 hit home (33.33%) success) which caused the Big-E to have a steering failure just as the 2nd strike of 27 planes appeared on the radar screen, then cruised around for 90 minutes apparently unable to find the target even though she was burning like a beacon! The other strike apparently missed totally which is a bit of a fluke and no doubt caused Yamamoto to gnash his teeth as it seems the IJN did everything right except find the target.

Battle of Santa Cruz was October '42 and about the last time the 'cream' of the IJN pilots flew against the USN. This time the IJN had four carriers (not 5 as sometimes reported, the Hiyo missed the battle because of machinery defects), the S&Z pair again + I think Zuiho and Junyo. The US were badly outgunned here and although reports are not complete or disagree as to how many IJN planes flew or made contact, it seems that the Enterprise was hit hard again by Vals early on - another three direct hits whilst the rest of the strikes coming in from all four committed carriers concentrated on the Hornet. From the very first strike of about 40 planes almost certianly from the S&Z (unsure of the composition, probably the usual mix of Zeros, Vals and Kates) the first Val hit it hard aft but then either crashed or deliberately rammed the ship and carriered down the flight-deck, exploding as it went. Almost immediately two Kates hit it with torpedos starboard then there were another three hits from Vals topsides which more or less finished the Hornet as a fighting unit, as they'd hit the funnel and blown out the boiler fires, jammed the elevators and destroyed the deck park. Then for a coup de grace the final Kate came in and rather than bothering with a torpedo just rammed the Hornet in the side causing a massive explosion and tremendous internal damage - unsure if the pilot was dead, wounded, had a malfunction with the release mechanism or was just intoxicated with the glory of the occasion. Taking all things into account, out of 40 planes to attack the the Hornet there were at least 6 hits excluding the ram - 15% success
Further strikes from the smaller carriers Zuiho and Junyo caused further damage (accoutns vary) although the pilots were less experienced, causing the Enterprise to flee the scene (seen as cowardice but actually an act of great moral courage, to loose 1 carrier was bad enough, to loose two might have meant the end of Guadacanal and the SW theatre) and for the Hornet to be scuttled... easier said than done given the appalling nature of the USN torpedos... 16 fish later and over 450 rounds of ammunition and the Hornet was still stubbornly afloat and a blazing beacon for the approaching IJN cruisers.

In the 1942 Carrier battles, for those that like statistics it seems that although the gunners & CAP got a lot, something like 40% of the strike planes would get through to attack the carriers and those that did had something like a 40% success rate (many Jap planes were brought down after they made their attacks).
At the Marianas Turkey Shoot in 1944, the picture was somewhat different. Out of approx 370 planes that attacked the US, c.270 were brought down and for all their efforts they only succeeded in 1 direct hit, and that was on a BB and not a CV (although a couple of CV's were near-missed by dive bombers).
However, no matter how one-sided the air-battle seems, it should be noted that out of the 370 Japanese planes approximately 40%, some 150, managed to fight their way through to the inner core and made attacks on the capital ships, CV's and BB's but scored only 1 direct hit. That is an appallingly poor ratio/score and shows the inadequate training of the IJN pilots at this time.
However, 40% penetration rate is similar to what they were getting in 1942, and if any of the pilots had been of the calibre of the 1942 elite ones, then the battle may have had a quite different outcome... worth thinkinig about!!!

[bigbaba]

thanks for the feedback. we are not in 1944 in the marianas turkey shoot..we are in 1943 where my zeros clean up the floor with the USN CAP (122 wildcats shot down in A2A combat) so my 33 bombers could start their attacks without seeing a single wildcat near them. the same samurais who would sink every US CV in 1942 with this strike force, acted like greenhorns right of flight school, who can not even fly straight ahead.[:)]

[anarchyintheuk]

It doesn't hurt that Hellcats arrive in UV in 7/43 instead of 2/43 or 3/43 when they started production and entered service respectively.

The better flak may be affecting your attack aircraft. You may want to threaten them as well. [:D]

[xj900uk]

Plane 4 Plane the Zero was better than the Wildcat in a straight turning fight. Perhaps your pilots are emplying the wrong tactics? Go for more 'slash and run' like the P40's tried to do - read Chennaults notes and thoughts which were available long before Pearl Harbour

Regarding your torpedo planes, what was their ability/experience? If you had a large number of green pilots that may explain the appallingly low hit rate

[bigbaba]

the avg. XP for all nell/betty units was above 70. and the endless wildcat vs zero fight was very one sided here..the IJN pilots shoot down the enemy in a 3:1 ratio and made alot of USN pilots wifes widows.[:D] it was not the problem to get the torpedo bombersthrough the CAP. the problem was that they dont hit anything in 1943.

[bigbaba]

06/17/43

quiet turn..except some heavy allied air attacks on lunga and GG. the flak at GG managed to shoot down 3 allied bombers. the VP difference is at 4000.

[Nomad]

Invasions are incoming - note more than one this time. [:D]

[Ike99]

At the Coral Sea it was Shokkaku and Zuikkaku (sorry if I've spelt them incorrectly) which were the newest and most inexperienced of the airgroups.

[:)]

[xj900uk]

it was not the problem to get the torpedo bombersthrough the CAP. the problem was that they dont hit anything in 1943

I believe that experience & quality has a lot to do with it. Inexperienced pilots would drop their fish as soon as their target came within range. An experienced pilot would get as close as possible and leave the dropping until the last minute.
Also weather and condition of the seas has got a lot to do with it - millpond and the fish should run straight and true, but if it's choppy or there's a heavy sea running, the fish could go off course when it hits the water, malfunction, or do anything

[bigbaba]

06/28/43

the last 2 days, carrier elements of the mighty IJN sunk at least 4 AP and 2 APD and damageing 2 more APD at the coast of Goodenough Island..the results are...goodenough[;)] for this last months of war.

the big attack came from rabaul. in a perfectly coordinated attack from airfields around rabaul, the IJAAF and the IJN managed to send 167 fighters and 184 bombers to attack the allied level 3 AF at Woodlark Island. for the lose of 21 planes the japanese managed to destroy 19 allied planes and put 120 hits on the runway.

and last but not least, SS I-158 managed to put 2 torpedos to the US CA Salt Lake City near Russell Islands causing heavy damage.

@xj900uk:

about aerial torpedo attacks, you may find this movie about the attack of the fleet air arm againt the bismarck intresting:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=WYpiz77JwhQ

[Nomad]

You must see a different replay than I do. You hit the same two AKs two days in a row and neither of them have sunk yet, but they probably will. You attacked AKs and APDs delivering supplies to Goodenough Island, which will be a level two in a few days and able to support SBDs. Woodlark is back up and running today, the USN has some amazing engineering vechiles.

As I indicated in my email, the Allies cannot defend every base in range completly so there will be times the Japanese can make a few hits. But the steamroller is moving forward.

[bigbaba]

i think i just forgot the names of some damaged AK and counted them double.

06/29/43 saw the allied revange attack on japanese shipping around rabaul. the allied came with several attack waves from Woodlark, sunk 1 AP and damaged 10 more at rabaul. my CAP was a bit too weak although its a level 9 AF with several air HQ on it.

we have for sure destroyed 19 allied planes (16 lightnings) and our CAP lost 12 planes (most of the pilots survived) and some should be crashed on the way back home.

here is the air battle over rabaul:

Air attack on TF, near Rabaul at 21,28

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 20
A6M3 Zero x 11
A6M5-B Zeke x 9
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 24

Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 25
B-17E Fortress x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-38G Lightning x 2 destroyed
P-38G Lightning x 4 damaged

1LT D.Maeda of 1st Sentai is credited with kill number 3

Japanese Ships
AP Kamoi Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Rabaul at 21,28

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 20
A6M3 Zero x 10
A6M5-B Zeke x 9
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 13

Allied aircraft
Boomerang x 10
P-38G Lightning x 4
B-17E Fortress x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M5-B Zeke x 1 destroyed
A6M5-B Zeke x 1 damaged
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Boomerang x 2 destroyed
Boomerang x 1 damaged
P-38G Lightning x 1 damaged
B-17E Fortress x 3 damaged

CPT B.Degawa of 1st Sentai is credited with kill number 2

LTJG I.Nomura of F2/2nd Daitai is KILLED

Japanese Ships
AP Teia Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Hakka Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Sanko Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Kumagawa Maru
AP Keisho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Yubae Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Rabaul at 21,28

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 20
A6M3 Zero x 9
A6M5-B Zeke x 8

Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 7
B-17E Fortress x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed


Japanese Ships
AP Yamakuni Maru
AP Keisho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Rabaul at 21,28

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 20
A6M3 Zero x 16
A6M5-B Zeke x 9
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 20

Allied aircraft
Boomerang x 9
P-38G Lightning x 24
B-17E Fortress x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 1 damaged
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Boomerang x 2 destroyed
Boomerang x 1 damaged
P-38G Lightning x 2 destroyed
P-38G Lightning x 3 damaged
B-17E Fortress x 1 damaged

1LT R. Alder of 41st FS is credited with kill number 4

Japanese Ships
AP Shinano Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Keisho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Sanko Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Kumagawa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Rabaul at 21,28

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 19
A6M3 Zero x 15
A6M5-B Zeke x 9

Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 22
B-25J Mitchell x 11
B-17E Fortress x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M5-B Zeke x 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38G Lightning x 3 destroyed

LTJG M.Ogawa of F2/Tainan Daitai is credited with kill number 2

Japanese Ships
AP Sanko Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Keisho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Kumagawa Maru, on fire
AP Florida Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Nichibi Maru, on fire

[bigbaba]

amazeing, how deadly this 4E with their laser guided bombs are..even at 12k feet. today, they managed to hit a CV (hard) and a CVL (medium damage) at Kavieng and few AP at rabaul. they seem to have a hitrate nearly as good as dive bombers in this game.

our CAP was totaly inefficient and shot down only 8 allied planes.