Family guy so offensive compared to Nazi and SS insignia ??

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
[It's seems like a bar fight or something.One guy punches another guy and soon the whole bar is fighting.

Thank God I have an American aircraft as my avatar.[X(]

You can't always make that assumption-watch your back.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: noxious

So if you're going to censor BoredStiff, you should start by getting rid of all the nazi sympathizers around these parts.

I don't consider myself a nazee-symp, but I'm not exactly a fan of the Stalinist/Maoist/Pol Pot family of commies, either, the guys who murdered so many millions of of their own in the process of consolidating their hold on the peoples-balls. But, my thoughts regarding those folks are sort of irrelevant, don't you think?

Matrix has their own purpose for keeping these forum open, ends that I've alluded to in other posts. What some folks fail to recognize is that those ends will likely go unrealized if the publisher allows the ongoing, uncensored exposition of folks views regarding matters that are completely, one-hundred-percent extraneous to wargaming.

No, IMHO, what Matrix desires is a forum environment which is at once both collegial and congenial. To be successful, to promote their products, they really can't have one, on-site, without the other. Suffice it to say, the former is always more easily achieved than the latter. This group of folks is difficult enough to manage, sans potato-masher, and has shown the propensity to descend into chaos when suitably aroused, a state of affairs that doesn't really benefit anyone.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[SlickWilhelm]

Once upon a time, I used to enjoy the flamefests that would occur on a daily basis on alt.games.warbirds and the Aces High O'club, but now that I'm in my early 40's, all I want to do is keep the discussion civil and perhaps argue against a person's opinion, not his person. It was refreshing to find Matrix Games and these forums, where we seem to mostly stay on topic and keep things civil. Personally, I'm sad to see bored stiff let his anger get the better of him and get banned. I hope he cools down and sends Erik an email, and they bury the hatchet.

[SS Hauptsturmfuhrer]

To avoid misunderstandings, my point of view is that the madman Hitler and his nazi inspired Germanization policy in occupied territory was a prime cause of Germany's defeat in the war.  At the risk of opening up a bad tasting can of political worms, I'll limit this to saying that my interest in the Waffen SS is focussed on the brave and quite amazing efforts of foreign recruited people who were motivated to fight the spread of Bolshevism, and I hold great respect for the latewar German members who fought hard to protect their homeland while the regular Wehrmacht army dropped their weapons and ran.

Here are some books I recommend for people who are interested in learning more about these brave warriors.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2_ns-h ... lt#PPP1,M1

http://www.amazon.com/Tragedy-Faithful- ... 0921991614

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

To avoid misunderstandings, my point of view is that the madman Hitler and his nazi inspired Germanization policy in occupied territory was a prime cause of Germany's defeat in the war.  At the risk of opening up a bad tasting can of political worms, I'll limit this to saying that my interest in the Waffen SS is focussed on the brave and quite amazing efforts of foreign recruited people who were motivated to fight the spread of Bolshevism, and I hold great respect for the latewar German members who fought hard to protect their homeland while the regular Wehrmacht army dropped their weapons and ran.

Here are some books I recommend for people who are interested in learning more about these brave warriors.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2_ns-h ... lt#PPP1,M1

http://www.amazon.com/Tragedy-Faithful- ... 0921991614

IMHO, there's really only one USA holiday that warrants the government shutting down, and that's Memorial Day. It was instituted to honor the memory of the soldiers that died in the American Civil War. This willingness of folks to honor one-another's fallen soldiers seems central to a lasting peace. Juxtapose that, then, with the tripe that you hear from a neo-nazi or read on the pages of the Daily Kos, and you realize that a new, different willingness is emerging, one aimed at the redefining the world along extremist lines, and a commitment to forcing those views on others, by whatever means necessary.

I may be the only one that attends these boards that feels this way, but, for some reason it's far easier for me to honor the memory of the soldiers that Hauptsturmfuhrer makes reference to, than to speak without emotion or prejudice in regard to the mass criminality embodied in the regime that they fought for. For that matter, I relate to the Red Army in the exact same way, no difference, whatsoever. I having nothing nice to say about communists, old or new. Perhaps that's why Matrix wants to steer us away from politics, as nothing good is likely to come of it.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: noxious

And I have no problems with Germans, but I have a problem with double standards, and letting things go because it's wargaming : we all know the SS were fucking thugs, and some of the lowest scum of the Earth. Not soldiers (just ask the people who really served in the German army what they thought of the SS, but you all know this already )

You mean the people who had an interest in blaming SS for all the German warcrimes?
Sorry, but all the German armies of WWII period were criminal in nature - Wehrmacht was involved in war crimes against Poland, including invading it, capturing people for concentration camps, mass murder of civilians, mass murder of prisoners of war, bombing of open cities, etc.
Blaming SS for everything is just a convenient excuse for them.

Also, SS wasn't a homogeneous organization - it had elite soldiers, concentration camp guards, scientists, idealists, opportunists, anti-communists, criminals, all sort of people.
And many elite Waffen SS units are present in games. I may hate their racist ideals but I admire some of them (for example Michael Wittmann) as warriors.

BTW.
My nickname glorifies genocide on planetary scale, slavery, betrayal, etc.[:D].

[Lützow]

May I throw the first stone ?

[TulliusDetritus]

"At the risk of opening up a bad tasting can of political worms, I'll limit this to saying that my interest in the Waffen SS is focussed on the brave and quite amazing efforts of foreign recruited people who were motivated to fight the spread of Bolshevism" - ** Whatever

That's how neo-nazis DO speak. You're a neo-nazi (and yes, your ideology IS irrelevant here since we try to avoid politics). Anyone wanted the proof perhaps? [;)]

You're totally right on this one, Noxious. What's next? An ADOLF HITLER nick... and then BIN LADEN... "and oh, let's play, that's why we're here, a family site, you know" [:D]

P.S.: I just hope a) you're not British, because b) your name might be on that funny list... [:D]

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

That's how neo-nazis DO speak. You're a neo-nazi (and yes, your ideology IS irrelevant here since we try to avoid politics). Anyone wanted the proof perhaps? [;)]

Why would neo-nazis speak like that? I thought that neo-nazis liked SS for racism?

[Phatguy]

POE, The ticker is fine......But a few more reads here and a dodging a few of the land mines being sown might lead me to a relapse and the tender mercies of some mean junkyard nurses...lol

[TulliusDetritus]

Perturabo, I can see you haven't visited some nazi sites [;)]

Ok, a little analysis for you:

"the Waffen SS is focussed on the brave and quite amazing efforts of foreign recruited people who were motivated to fight the spread of Bolshevism"

Don't you notice that he is NOT mentioning at all the context [WW2 that is]? Were you an ET and were you reading what he wrote you might correctly think, conclude "oh, I see, they were the victims, someone else invaded them and they fought back..." [:D] In other words, the Soviet Union counter-attack ("why are they resisting in the first place, these untermenschen") is evil. They can't understand this resistance, and when they meet the Soviet NEMESIS they yell "assassin".

That's classic neo-nazi stuff, in case you didn't know. Not very sophisticated, but hey, these people are not that original [:D]

** Whatever will deny it. But he is supposed to do that as well [:D]

And that's all I will say. NOT interested in abusing nazi clowns. At least not here. FORBIDDEN, you know.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Perturabo, I can see you haven't visited some nazi sites [;)]

Ok, a little analysis for you:

"the Waffen SS is focussed on the brave and quite amazing efforts of foreign recruited people who were motivated to fight the spread of Bolshevism"

Don't you notice that he is NOT mentioning at all the context [WW2 that is]? Were you an ET and were you reading what he wrote you might correctly think, conclude "oh, I see, they were the victims, someone else invaded them and they fought back..." [:D] In other words, the Soviet Union counter-attack ("why are they resisting in the first place, these untermenschen") is evil. They can't understand this resistance, and when they meet the Soviet NEMESIS they yell "assassin".

That's classic neo-nazi stuff, in case you didn't know. Not very sophisticated, but hey, these people are not that original [:D]

** Whatever will deny it. But he is supposed to do that as well [:D]

And that's all I will say. NOT interested in abusing nazi clowns. At least not here. FORBIDDEN, you know.

This may be why Matrix doesn't want us posting about politics on THEIR forum.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

BTW: Posting to threads like this is terrific. I don't have to think nearly as hard as when I post about playing wargames. It won't be long until I hit 1000 posts, whereupon, I shall retire from the hobby altogether, and live out my days probing the hidden mysteries of M$ Spider Solitaire.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Perturabo, I can see you haven't visited some nazi sites [;)]

Ok, a little analysis for you:

"the Waffen SS is focussed on the brave and quite amazing efforts of foreign recruited people who were motivated to fight the spread of Bolshevism"

Don't you notice that he is NOT mentioning at all the context [WW2 that is]? Were you an ET and were you reading what he wrote you might correctly think, conclude "oh, I see, they were the victims, someone else invaded them and they fought back..." [:D] In other words, the Soviet Union counter-attack ("why are they resisting in the first place, these untermenschen") is evil. They can't understand this resistance, and when they meet the Soviet NEMESIS they yell "assassin".

Err...
He talked about foreign recruited people fighting Soviet Union, not about whole Waffen SS.
Soviet Union was an aggressor during WWII - it attacked Poland on 17.09.1939 and attacked Finland on 30.11.1939.
Also, Soviet Union had plans for conquering whole Europe in order to spread their version of socialism. The first attempt was in 1920 and was stopped by Poland.
In 1940 Soviets murdered about 22000 of Polish officers, intellectuals, policemen, etc. in the Katyń crime.

[Gem35]

[KG Erwin]

Some of you guys amaze me, but somehow I think you intentionally try to push the limits. This is an APOLITICAL GAMING SITE. I think that "immersion" into a GAME is fine, but this sort of sniping and badgering goes nowhere and will get this thread locked.

Yeah, I know the pattern -- a few drive-bys troll the forum, offer a few smartass remarks, and the thread gets closed.

[06 Maestro]

To have a military game site/history site that bans the SS emblem would be like having an organization which studies religion/games religion, but bans the Crucifix, or the Star of David. For a free people, such suggestions should be as repulsive as those are stupid. I neither need, nor desire that type of censorship in my life. What they do in Germany, or Saudi Arabia is their business, but don't try to cram their dogma's down my throat.

Politics is politics, history is history. The line may blur sometimes, but we should all know when we are going too far in stretching this forum's rules.

I would agree that in the case of Germany that it was a good move to ban any Nazi emblems after the war. It was an important aspect to de-nazification. For game sites to recognize these laws in the 21st century would be nothing less than thought control.

[Azazel_GIMpoid]

hello? wtf are you gits goin on about?

long time player, short talker here.

hey Larkin, Hetz, Corrin, Rose, Storm..........shout out to ya!
remember me?

[KG Erwin]

"Hey, I happen to like my avatar, as it represents the REAL Dodgers, which of course was the team that resided in Brooklyn. The present West Coast team are imposters."

The above remark is just one example of the weirdness that pervades online forums. I see it on many types of discussion forums, from wargames to sports to music.

[sabre1]

I fenced in college, hence my avatar.  I humbly apologize for causing anyone pain due to my interest in this antiquated weapon of a bygone era.  I am seeking therapy due to the light that has been shed upon my politically uncorrect fascination with said weapon.
 
"BTW: Posting to threads like this is terrific. I don't have to think nearly as hard as when I post about playing wargames. It won't be long until I hit 1000 posts, whereupon, I shall retire from the hobby altogether, and live out my days probing the hidden mysteries of M$ Spider Solitaire. "
 
POE: That was hilarious.
 
Ok, back to playing games and lurk mode...
 

 

[Erik Rutins]

Copying my reply here and locking this thread. Noxious, feel free to e-mail me at erikr@matrixgames.com if you have genuine concerns about other posters breaking the forum rules.

Let me add in here as a personal anecdote that two of my Uncles (now deceased) were _drafted_ into the Waffen SS as young men in occupied Latvia in the latter part of WWII. They were not Nazis and were quite disillusioned about any promised "liberation" of Latvia. But first of all they had no choice once they were conscripted and they (and all of Latvia) were caught between a rock and a hard place as the Soviet Union (which had already annexed Latvia once in 1940 and committed quite a few atrocities in the process) was on the way back for another round too. So they left their families and they fought for one evil to keep what seemed to them at the time a greater evil away from their country. It definitely shortened both their lives in physical and spiritual ways and also nearly got them sent back to the Soviet Union (where they would have been sent to Siberia or executed) in the post-war period when the initial perception was that anyone who'd been in the SS was a fanatical Nazi volunteer despite the foreign units and the use of conscription to fill out some of those. It was a minor miracle that both of them survived the war and managed to be reunited with the rest of the family (at least those that had escaped Latvia as refugees) afterwards.

I would not personally have a handle of "SS Hauptsturmfuhrer" but I understand why some wargamers, who are not Nazi sympathizers, do admire some elements of the Waffen SS from a strictly military standpoint. I don't personally admire them, but I do recognize that they were in many respects an elite military formation in their time and that they are in the realm of acceptable discussion for a military history or wargaming forum.

-----

Hi guys, first of all if the moderation is imperfect (and it is) I absolutely take the blame for that. I'm human and moreover I'm a very busy human. Moderating this forum is probably the very last on my list of responsibilities, though I try to read it often to get input and feedback from our customers. The end result is that coverage and moderation is indeed spotty.

To those of you who read every thread and post, it may seem that sometimes obvious problems are overlooked and others inexplicably addressed quickly. I've read from time to time folks thinking that we have some deliberate agenda in ignoring one transgression and locking down another. I assure you that's simply the normal functioning of a very busy and human moderator. I'm sure I also have some biases, but I try hard to simply enforce the rules to keep this place friendly for gamers of all ages who wish to exchange views on gaming (and pretty much everything other than politics or religion) in a civil way.

As a wargamer, I enjoy having a community at our site that shares my interests and I don't enjoy locking threads or banning people, but I felt that BoredStiff took a thread that while a bit controversial had a chance at an interesting discussion and turned it to politics, quite deliberately. He did not let up on that either.

Regarding Nazi/SS stuff Noxious mentioned, though I'm not sure what exactly he's specifically referencing in this case, of course we don't support Nazis or the SS. However, you can't really discuss WWII without including them and wargamers have long had an interest in the Waffen-SS (the military arm rather than those who ran the concentration camps) as an elite military formation that achieved some significant victories against the odds during WWII. From what I've seen, any kind of admiration among posters on these forums for the SS has been strictly in the context of analysis of military accomplishments, which wargamers are wont to do with any army and any conflict.

Might there be neo-Nazis among the thousands of people with a login to these forums? Sure, but as long as they don't start creating threads about their politics, and keep their discussion to wargaming, how would we know? If they cross into politics, they'll get warned, locked, etc. like anyone else. Unlike a forum on say Tennis, there can be a real reason and context to discussion of WWII German military formations, outside of politics.

Regards,

- Erik