AE Land and AI Issues [OUTDATED]

[JeffroK]

Doc,

I think the Div should be the upgrade of the Princess Irene Bde which fought in NW Europe.

The Aussies didnt always disarm the japanese, often they used them to keep the peace.

But, your point of needing a garrison is on the spot, the game can manage this in China so why not in other locations.

Going both ways, any japanese invasion of Burma/India/Australia etc would see the need for garrisions, maybe only a Bn or Rgt. As you point out the DEI were about to explode (and the Brit/Indians sent more than the Aussies) and maybe Thailand/FIC/Taiwan/Okinawa/Home Is should demand Allied garrison.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: JeffK
But, your point of needing a garrison is on the spot, the game can manage this in China so why not in other locations.

Going both ways, any japanese invasion of Burma/India/Australia etc would see the need for garrisions, maybe only a Bn or Rgt. As you point out the DEI were about to explode (and the Brit/Indians sent more than the Aussies) and maybe Thailand/FIC/Taiwan/Okinawa/Home Is should demand Allied garrison.

There are garrison requirements in a lot of locations in AE, including for the Allies in DEI, India and Japan, and for the Japanese in most allied areas. In China, for example, both the Allies and the Japanese have garrison requirements.

The garrison requirements for a base are proportional to the population of the area at the time.

Andrew

[dennishe]

There are garrison requirements in a lot of locations in AE, including for the Allies in DEI, India and Japan, and for the Japanese in most allied areas. In China, for example, both the Allies and the Japanese have garrison requirements.

The garrison requirements for a base are proportional to the population of the area at the time.

 
what are the penalties? I thought the penalties in WITP were rather weak. Especially in places that do not have any resources/oil/large airfields...

[Andy Mac]

To be clear the KNIL Division arrives in the UK in late 45 I think its October 45 i.e post the war ending and will arrive at the time it actually arrived where it relieved 5th Para which was garrisoning Java.
 
 

[Jo van der Pluym]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

To be clear the KNIL Division arrives in the UK in late 45 I think its October 45 i.e post the war ending and will arrive at the time it actually arrived where it relieved 5th Para which was garrisoning Java.

In reality it was the "Tiger" brigade. This exist out Dutch Volunteers. Als on that time was the Dutch Marine Brigade Trained in the US.

In 1946 formed the Netherlands from these units, some Light Infantry Battalions (Dutch Volunteers and KNIL Troops the 'A' and 'B' Divisions.

In December 1946 arrives the first elements of the Division 7 December (then 'C' Division) And later in the Cold War is this the 1st Infantry Divison in the early years and later the 1st Mechanised Division.

But if Japan had not captulated in september 1945, then this Division was all around December 1945 in the Pacific. The Training of the division was halted because the end of World War II, and is restarted in June 1946.

[Andy Mac]

Hmmmm ok I have the Marieners Bde as a seperate Bde in the US so maybe the full Div even arriving on scene 1/46 is to much - I will have another look at my data

[Dutch_slith]

The only units capable of fighting the Japanese, were the Mariniers Brigade, one maybe two KNIL Battalions and of course the 'December 7' Division (available from 1947 onwards). All other units were made up from freed pows and untrained volunteers.

The core of the Mariniers Brigade was made up by marines stripped of the remaining warships of the RNN, and from marine units defending Suriname. The others came - after the german surrender - from pre-war marine units in the Netherlands or were volunteers. This brigade (actually a reinforced regiment) was trained to fight the japs alongside the US Marine Corps. -> USMC TO/E

There was a KNIL Battalion in Australia (actually a half battalion). This unit was made up by KNIL soldiers, who escaped from Java. This unit took part in Operation Oboe (2nd company at Tarakan, 1st at Balikpapan). -> Australian TO/E

The 'December 7' Division was formed/trained in Great Britain. This wasn't a KNIL Divison but a KL (Royal Army) one. -> British TO/E

Overview dutch forces 1945/1946:

1st KNIL Battalion (2 companies) formed 44-11-15.
the other 2 companies were added on 45-08-30 (at Tarakan).
later attached to V-brigade

2nd KNIL Battalion (3 companies) formed on 44-11-15
2 companies at Balikpapan, 1 company at camp Darley/Australia
later attached to U-brigade

Mariniers Brigade formed in 1943, left the United States on 45-09-15.
3 infantry battalions, some engineers (NOT combat engineers). They took tanks, armored cars, AT guns and such with them, but these units weren't operational. An artillery unit was formed later on Java, using 25pdrs from the British/KNIL. All other equipment was US made.

The KL-volunteers (shipped head over heels from europe to asia) and KNIL battalions (pows) were formed after the japanese surrender. These units were not trained to fight the japs, but to maintain peace and order in the NEI (read: to support the british forces on java!). They were organized in brigades in the beginning of 1946.

T-brigade on 46-01-15 at Port Dickson/Malaya (= Tijger Brigade)
U-brigade on 46-01-22 at Soengei Patani/Malaya
V-brigade on 46-01-25 at Ipoh/Malaya
W-brigade on 46-02-15 at Chaah/Malaya
X-brigade on 46-02-23 at Chaah/Malaya

On march/april 1946 they were shipped to Java. A-divisie was made up by Mariniers Brigade and X-brigade at Soerabaja. B-divisie was made up by U-, V- and W-brigade at Batavia. T-brigade was shipped to Semarang.

Medio 1946 a Y-brigade was formed on Bali and shipped to Palembang/Sumatra on 46-10-25. End of october 1946
Z-brigade was formed at Medan. This brigade was made up of 1-1 RI and KNIL Inf IV.

The 'December 7' Division left Great Britain in October 1946 for Java, this division was known as C-divisie (deployed in western Java).

Only 1st KNIL Battalion, maybe 2nd KNIL Battalion and the Mariniers Brigade should be included in AE. All other units were simply not trained to fight the japs or couldn't be trained until at least 1947 (like December 7 Division).

possible Upgrade of KNIL forces in Java 1941/42
There was a so-called 'Brigade plan' to reorganize KNIL forces in Java in 1941/42. All necessary material was ordered and paid in advance. But it didn't reach Java before the japanese attacked. The 5 infantry regiments (1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th and Groep Zuid) should be reformed into brigades. Each brigade had a cavalry (recce) squadron with an attached tank-platoon, a tank battalion with 2 squadrons of light tanks and 1 squadron with medium tanks, 90 tanks in total, obviously 45 of these were reserve, 2 battalions of infantry, one motorized infantry company, one AA/AT battalion with 27-37mm AT guns and 27-20mm AA guns, one motorized artillery battalion, one pioneer company. This should be possible in AE, IF enough units could escape from Java OR if the jap invasion is postponed.
_____________

One last remark regarding the KNIL forces in 1941/42. About 30% of the KNIL forces were made up of europeans (that is europeans and 'indian dutchmen' = half dutch/half indonesian), 2/3rds were natives. MLKNIL and artillery had a higher proportion, infantry and cavalry a lesser. The units on the outer islands (anywhere outside of Java/Madoera) were only used to fight in formations as large as a squad. Troops on Java were so-called 'veldbataljons' = Field Battalions, capable fighting in company/battalion formation. Each Battalion had one european company. Some units did fight well (within the bounds of possibility) when ably lead, some didn't. Sometimes regulars fled in face of the enemy like 10-2 RI, sometimes 2nd-line units completely made up of natives did do all the fighting (like the reservekorps at Menado). But in general the native soldiers deserted when the cause was lost.

One could say KNIL lost the fight because they lacked adequate material like tanks and guns, because of very bad logistics, decreasing morale (jap air superiority) and their inadequate (pre-war) doctrine.

On the political situation (in short)
The Dutch East Indies wasn't on the eve of a revolution in 1941, but like in india they were 'nationalist' movements. Rioting/Looting occured when police/KNIL forces left, nothing unusual during a war. In 1945 however things had considerably changed (Bersiap).

[Jo van der Pluym]

Other Dutch Forces in the Pacific where from medio 1942 NSO, on 1 aug 42) named Korps Insulinde. Raised from a part of the Princess Irene Brigade that was underway to the NEI, but because the surrender was stranded on Ceylon, and KNIL troops. it was about a small company size, But may 1945 reinforced with 154 men (part No 2 Dutch Troop). disbanded may 1946. In June reraised as DST Depot Special Troops (commando's)
In begin 1948 merged with the 1st Para Company in the KST (Corps Special Troops) A Battalion formation (HQ, Support, 2x Commando and 1 Para Companies)

In the same year is in Autralia raised NEFIS (Dutch SOE) of about platoon strenght.

[Andy Mac]

Thank Jo I dont want to go nuts with this stuff because its relatively marginal

I had the Mariniers Bde arriveing at half strength 1/45 in the US and I had one other Bde arriving 1/46 at Kuala Lumper also at low strength (it was originally a weak 1st KNIL Div but based on feedback I reduced it to a Bde only)

Because places like Java have garrison requirements for the allies I need some formations for rear area policing.

Re the Dutch on Java from memory there are no amalgam options for them I thought about doing the Bde structure but on balance decided against it - it would be to easy to abuse if implemented.

The Dutch get a broad selection of forces including various mechanised cavalry units in Java when I get home tonight I can post you a taster perhaps the Java garrison would be of interest [:D][:D]

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym

Other Dutch Forces in the Pacific where from medio 1942 NSO, on 1 aug 42) named Korps Insulinde. Raised from a part of the Princess Irene Brigade that was underway to the NEI, but because the surrender was stranded on Ceylon, and KNIL troops. it was about a small company size, But may 1945 reinforced with 154 men (part No 2 Dutch Troop). disbanded may 1946. In June reraised as DST Depot Special Troops (commando's)
In begin 1948 merged with the 1st Para Company in the KST (Corps Special Troops) A Battalion formation (HQ, Support, 2x Commando and 1 Para Companies)

In the same year is in Autralia raised NEFIS (Dutch SOE) of about platoon strenght.

Hi,

out of couriosity: Do you know anything about the '1st NEI Fusilier Company' which was part of Merauke-Force in 1944? Had it been part of the original (1941) Dutch garrison of Merauke or was it a unit raised later in Australia?

Thanks!

K

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym

Other Dutch Forces in the Pacific where from medio 1942 NSO, on 1 aug 42) named Korps Insulinde. Raised from a part of the Princess Irene Brigade that was underway to the NEI, but because the surrender was stranded on Ceylon, and KNIL troops. it was about a small company size, But may 1945 reinforced with 154 men (part No 2 Dutch Troop). disbanded may 1946. In June reraised as DST Depot Special Troops (commando's)
In begin 1948 merged with the 1st Para Company in the KST (Corps Special Troops) A Battalion formation (HQ, Support, 2x Commando and 1 Para Companies)

In the same year is in Autralia raised NEFIS (Dutch SOE) of about platoon strenght.

Hi,

out of couriosity: Do you know anything about the '1st NEI Fusilier Company' which was part of Merauke-Force in 1944? Had it been part of the original (1941) Dutch garrison of Merauke or was it a unit raised later in Australia?

Thanks!

K

I have a book with some hard data on them. Have to dig a bit...

(edit)

OK, from two sources:
Australia's Forgotten Army, Volume 2, Graham MacKenzie-Smith, ISBN 0 646 24404 3
Torres Strait Force, Reg A. Ball, ISBN 0-646-20749-0

1st NEI Fusilier Company is listed at Merauke as of end of November, 1941. It is the only unit listed at Merauke at that time.
It continues to be listed at Merauke through out the war, with HQ changes to SWPA in April 1942, then attached to HQ 62nd Australian Infantry Battalion in January 1943 (when 62nd Bn moved to Merauke).

Strength is given as 160 men as of early 1943 (a situation report from 62nd Bn), along with the note that it is really a heavy weapons company.

I have a vague recollection of a reference to a reinforcement arriving sometime in early 1942 - either directly from ABDA or from Dutch troops that escaped to Australia. Just can't find the source! Apparently it included some light AA for defense of the airfield but I do not if that was original or a reinforcement.

All I got.

(edit again)

Found a few references to Merauke in Australia in the War 1939-1945, the Japanese Thrust, Lionel Wigmore (no ISBN). These are mostly for personnel escaping through the area after the fall of Ambon. It does however mention another Dutch Infantry Company at Dobo, that aided the escapers.
One group of escaping troops included a Dutch Officer and 72 Native Troops. Kind of vague but it appears that these did move to Australia with a group of about 20 Australian troops, arriving at Kurumba.

I'll see if I can find any more info...

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I have a book with some hard data on them. Have to dig a bit...

(edit)

OK, from two sources:
Australia's Forgotten Army, Volume 2, Graham MacKenzie-Smith, ISBN 0 646 24404 3
Torres Strait Force, Reg A. Ball, ISBN 0-646-20749-0

1st NEI Fusilier Company is listed at Merauke as of end of November, 1941. It is the only unit listed at Merauke at that time.
It continues to be listed at Merauke through out the war, with HQ changes to SWPA in April 1942, then attached to HQ 62nd Australian Infantry Battalion in January 1943 (when 62nd Bn moved to Merauke).

Strength is given as 160 men as of early 1943 (a situation report from 62nd Bn), along with the note that it is really a heavy weapons company.

I have a vague recollection of a reference to a reinforcement arriving sometime in early 1942 - either directly from ABDA or from Dutch troops that escaped to Australia. Just can't find the source! Apparently it included some light AA for defense of the airfield but I do not if that was original or a reinforcement.

All I got.

(edit again)

Found a few references to Merauke in Australia in the War 1939-1945, the Japanese Thrust, Lionel Wigmore (no ISBN). These are mostly for personnel escaping through the area after the fall of Ambon. It does however mention another Dutch Infantry Company at Dobo, that aided the escapers.
One group of escaping troops included a Dutch Officer and 72 Native Troops. Kind of vague but it appears that these did move to Australia with a group of about 20 Australian troops, arriving at Kurumba.

I'll see if I can find any more info...

KNIL companies (post 1942) were numbered. The 1st KNIL Battalion had two companies, 1st and 2nd. Maybe the Merauke company is the 1st company of 1st KNIL Battalion....

There was a dutch unit at Babo (not Dobo), called 'Detachement Babo'. Strength was about 200 men. It was sent (end of Januari '42) to Babo to protect the airfield (under construction) and the oil fields at that place. Detachement Babo was evacuated to Australia, after demolishing the airfield/oil installations.

Source: De Japanse Aanval op Nederlands-Indie by J.J. Nortier

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I had the Mariniers Bde arriveing at half strength 1/45 in the US and I had one other Bde arriving 1/46 at Kuala Lumper also at low strength (it was originally a weak 1st KNIL Div but based on feedback I reduced it to a Bde only)

TO/E of KNIL Brigade 1945/46
3-4 Infantry Battalions
1-2 Field Artillery Battalions
1 squadron of light tanks or 1 squadron of armored cars (or both)
1 field company engineers

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Re the Dutch on Java from memory there are no amalgam options for them I thought about doing the Bde structure but on balance decided against it - it would be to easy to abuse if implemented.

I think you're right. In the end the dutch units should die in Java. It was impossible to maintain any forces of a substantial size after the fall of Java.

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

The Dutch get a broad selection of forces including various mechanised cavalry units in Java when I get home tonight I can post you a taster perhaps the Java garrison would be of interest [:D][:D]

The cavalry squadrons made it into the game? Great!

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans

KNIL companies (post 1942) were numbered. The 1st KNIL Battalion had two companies, 1st and 2nd. Maybe the Merauke company is the 1st company of 1st KNIL Battalion....

...

Could be but I'd guess not. The unit at Merauke was designated as Fusilier, not infantry. And it appears the the 1st Fusilier Company remained at Merauke for the entire war.

I vaguely recall a book (or web site) that described some action around Merauke. As I recall, some Japanese troops in a barge (or barges) were fired on by an outpost at a river mouth west of Merauke, sometime in 1943. Fearing an attack was immenite the Australian/Dutch/US Troops at Merauke deployed for defense of the town and airfield and the source included troop dispositions. Back in Steel Panthers days I made a scenario based on the dispositions.

I'll rummage around and see if I can find that source...

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Could be but I'd guess not. The unit at Merauke was designated as Fusilier, not infantry. And it appears the the 1st Fusilier Company remained at Merauke for the entire war.

In 1941 KNIL infantry companies were designated 'fuseliercompagnie', later on they were called 'tirailleur- or infantriecompagnie'.

Source: De Japanse Aanval op Java by J.J. Nortier, P. Kuijt and P.M.H. Groen

The Dutch were anxious to take part in any invasion into the NEI. To save face so they could maintain a dutch colonial empire. Therefore I think it is most probable that every 'combat-ready' unit was used to fight the japanese, rather than having 1/3 of all KNIL-strength sitting at Merauke....

This is just a guess...

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

There are garrison requirements in a lot of locations in AE, including for the Allies in DEI, India and Japan, and for the Japanese in most allied areas. In China, for example, both the Allies and the Japanese have garrison requirements.

The garrison requirements for a base are proportional to the population of the area at the time.

Andrew

Wait, did I miss something [&:] This is the first I have heard of this.

This is great news indeed and once again proves how much better AE will model reality than stock WitP.

Some humble questions if any of the AE team members gets a chance:

1. This may be obvious, but I assume garrison requirements are exposed in the editor? Will the main AE campaign have different values for each location for both Axis and Allies?

2. What are the penalties in AE for not meeting this requirement? I have never played the full campaign as the Japanease, so I only know what the manual says about not meeting the requirement. And we all know how accurate the original manual still is [:D] Is it still just base/resource damage, or do we see rebel units showing up similar to what happened when the Chinese entered Vietnam in vanilla WitP?

3. Is it still going to be a assault value requirement, or a personel requirement or both? (ie. Needed Garrison: 120 AV, or Needed Garrison: 12000 troops or Needed Garrison: 120 AV and 12000 troops)

4. Can we get some typical values for some points of interest? Such as Rangoon, Bombay or Manila?

Thanks in advance, as always.

Chad

[Andy Mac]

OK as promised

Dutch Garrison of Java

1st, 2nd,4th,6th and Barisen Regts
Tjilitjap Indpt Garrison Bn on the West Coast
1 x Regt Cavalrie
1 x Ard Bn
1 x Indpt Ard Sqn

3 Coastal Gun Bns
2 AA bns

Plus various base forces and support units about 39,000 men

[Andy Mac]

1. This may be obvious, but I assume garrison requirements are exposed in the editor? Will the main AE campaign have different values for each location for both Axis and Allies?

YES

2. What are the penalties in AE for not meeting this requirement? I have never played the full campaign as the Japanease, so I only know what the manual says about not meeting the requirement. And we all know how accurate the original manual still is [:D] Is it still just base/resource damage, or do we see rebel units showing up similar to what happened when the Chinese entered Vietnam in vanilla WitP?

NO REBEL UNITS JUST ECONOMIC DAMAGE AND SUPPLY INTERDICTION

3. Is it still going to be a assault value requirement, or a personel requirement or both? (ie. Needed Garrison: 120 AV, or Needed Garrison: 12000 troops or Needed Garrison: 120 AV and 12000 troops)

AV

4. Can we get some typical values for some points of interest? Such as Rangoon, Bombay or Manila?

Rangoon Garrison 150 AV (allied)/ 50 AV (Japan)
Bombay Garrison 100 AV (allied) / 225 AV (Japan)
Manila Garriosn 0 AV (allied)/200 AV (Japan)

[Don Bowen]

From Torres Strait Force, Reg. A. Ball, ISBN 0-646-20749-0

(condensed)

Strength as of Jan 12, 1943:
(a) Company Group, 62nd Australian Infantry Battalion: “C” Company, 2 detachments of 3-inch mortars, 3 Light Combat Tanks (Marmon Harringtons), attached transport, signal, medical detachments.
(b) Battery “D”, 104th US AA Battalion (Separate)
(c) One Company N.E.I. comprising
· One MMG Platoon
· One LMG Platoon
· One Anti Tank Platoon
· One 60mm Platoon with 3 mortars
(d) R.A.A.F. Radio Installation Personnel
(e) Port Detachment “A”, US
(f) No. 26 Portable Hospital, US

There was also a Dutch civilian police unit that was assigned defensive responsibilities.

Following additional information is given concerning 1st N.E.I. Fusilier Company:

So many crew served weapons that there was no actual infantry strength (sounds a lot like the US Marine Defense Battalions).

Defense Plan lists detail assignments (only Dutch troops listed):

No. 1 Locality:
Three 37mm A/T guns
One 60mm Mortar detachment
One 30 Lewis L.M.G. section
N.E.I Police, less patrol details

No. 2 Locality:
One 37mm A/T section
One section with 2 .30 Brownings
One 60mm section
One .30 Lewis LMG section

No. 3 Locality:
One section with 2 .30 Brownings
“two” 60mm mortar detachment (note below)
One .30 Madson LMG section
One .50 Cal MG Section

Wendow:
N.E.I. police details will maintain a patrol at Wendow to operate North of Merauke River.

Note: The summary lists three N.E.I. 60mm Mortars. One section each is specified for No. 1 and No. 2 locality, plus “two” section in No. 3 locality. Either this is one actual section - #2 section – or the summary and detail are out of sync.


Of interest are the three Marmon Harrington light tanks. These were from Dutch orders that were not delivered prior to the fall of Java. A total of 54 CTLS model were enroute Java aboard five merchant ships when Java was lost (USAT Mapia, Dutch Bantam, Tabian, and Weltevreden). They diverted to Australia, and later shipments increased the total to 149. These were all the 2-man, 3-MG version. They were assigned to the US and Australian Army and were used for training and reconnaissance. Three Australian units went to Merauke and others were stationed at Thursday Island and Jacky Jacky (on the tip of the York Peninsula). When all of 62nd Bn arrived at Merauke, the 3 light tanks there were attached to 62nd Battalion’s Carrier Platoon.


I have also verified that 1st N.E.I. Fusilier Company is listed at Merauke for the entire length of the force assignment data: from November, 1941 thru June, 1945 inclusive. The list stops at June, 1945.

[Yamato hugger]

All this energy over a couple hundred guys that sat out the war on New Guinea? This is a tree. That is a forest.