Hedgehogs

[Helpless]

After playing couple of very exiting games, I'd like to share my thoughts regarding implementation of German ability to build hedgehog defense. May be I have missed something.. [&:]

According to manual:
Hedgehog can be thought of as step beyond entrenchments... A hedgehog has the same type of bonuses as entrenchment, with the important exception that no tactical bonuses can be gained against a hedgehogged unit...
Hedgehogs do exert less of a penalty to enemy movement in the surrounding hexes. This is to reflect the fact that
a hedgehogged unit has organized itself for all round defense rather than linearly, and thus is less capable
of restricting movement.

Wikipedia gives such definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog_defence):

In warfare, the hedgehog defense is a military tactic for defending against a mobile armored attack, or blitzkrieg. The defenders deploy in depth in heavily fortified positions suitable for all-around defense. The attackers can penetrate between these "hedgehogs", but each position continues to fight on when surrounded. This keeps large numbers of attacking troops tied up, attacking the well-defended strongpoints, while allowing the defenders to successfully counterattack against the units that bypass these strongpoints with their own armored reserves by cutting them off from their supporting elements.

Some other sources present hedgehogs rather as "military improvisations" then a usual front tactics -
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/m ... v/ch02.htm. And which is interesting, this tactic was also employed during German offensives in 1941.


The key words here are "all round", "surrounded". But then in game even AI builds the whole front made of hedgehogs, i.e. with no penalty to defender, since there is nothing which can be surrounded or bypassed. Also in 90% I have bad die rolls with Soviet Artillery against hedgehogged units, thus making them a "death star" against front assault.

To summarize, I think that current hedgehog implementation as an improved entrenchment with very little penalties to defender can lead to a gamey tactics, which has no historical evidence.

There might be several solutions:

1. Reduce defensive effect of hedgehog
For example in HTTR/COTA if defender is choosing the "all round" formation it is making it's "front" weaker comparing to the usual line formation. I know there is no "front" definition for the stack. But making it equally defending from all sides (eliminating tactical shift bonus) the stack is dispersing it's defensive capabilities.

2. Remove entrenchment requirement to build a hedgehog
So far, in all historical examples hedgehogs seen more as mobile (usually tank/motorized) tactics than static entrenchments

3. Restrict the terrain where hedgehog could be build
In manual it is said that scenario designer can choose to prohibit hedgehogs in certain terrain. But in stock Kharkov games Germans can have them in clear and open, when historically more often terrains such as swampy forests been used for this.

4. Extend hedgehog ability to German motorized and panzer units and allow to build hedgehogs on Allied territory. This would allow using hedgehog for motorized/panzer units during there offensives moves as it was historically

[emcgman]

Your ideas aren't necessarily bad, but how much re-working of the AI do you want to go through, changing basic game mechanics, when they can be spending the same amount of time creating new scenarios.

The hedgehog effect in this particular scenario is meant to offset the Soviet manpower and artillery power.

Because of the scale of the game, certain concepts like hedgehog are abstracted to an extent.

I know what you're saying, though. Maybe some future game can contain enough intrinsic detail of actual units, but would require a lot more processing power. Kind of like a future version of Operational Art of War, where individual squads are modeled within the framework of a battalion or brigade sized unit.

[Helpless]

Your ideas aren't necessarily bad, but how much re-working of the AI do you want to go through, changing basic game mechanics, when they can be spending the same amount of time creating new scenarios.

Hmm, well.. I know nothing is free I agree this is not a game breaker by any means and AtD2 with "hedgehogs" is much much better then. .. nothing

The hedgehog effect in this particular scenario is meant to offset the Soviet manpower and artillery power.

Because of the scale of the game, certain concepts like hedgehog are abstracted to an extent.

That's right. Amount of abstraction in SSG games is quite high, but the "historical feel" is quite accurate. Although achieving historical results utilizing non-historical concepts is not very "elegant" and quite often can lead to a gamey tactics.

In someway hedgehogs remind me "Zero bonus" in WITP, where instead of tweaking a game model we are trying to introduce artificial static factors which are good only when used properly, i.e. not very often in PBEM

Once again, I'm not really complaining, but rather expressing my thoughts on this particular aspect.

[e_barkmann]

my take on these observations - none of the German units start the game Hedgehogged, and there is no real continuous Axis front line to start with, ie there's no continuous line of units hex by hex.

So what you are observing is something that's happened during the game. The Soviet player should strive to prevent the German units from Hedgehogging - suggest using the heavy artillery units and airstrikes against entrenched units (as these may become Hedgehogged on the next turn if they stay in the same hex). Get a step loss or two then force a retreat with a close combat or two (and follow up with more artillery once retreated...). The affected unit will then need at least 2 turns to become Hedgehogged again at that point. Concentrate on several units in the line like this, to force a gap - and all of a sudden the German has a real problem. For the units still left untouched, does he Hedgehog them and risk losing them behind the lines?

Also note that Hedgehogging is only available to standard Infantry regiments and only on selected terrain, so it's not a panacea for all defensive situations for the German.

The rambling now endeth

cheers

[Helpless]

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

my take on these observations - none of the German units start the game Hedgehogged, and there is no real continuous Axis front line to start with, ie there's no continuous line of units hex by hex.

So what you are observing is something that's happened during the game. The Soviet player should strive to prevent the German units from Hedgehogging - suggest using the heavy artillery units and airstrikes against entrenched units (as these may become Hedgehogged on the next turn if they stay in the same hex). Get a step loss or two then force a retreat with a close combat or two (and follow up with more artillery once retreated...). The affected unit will then need at least 2 turns to become Hedgehogged again at that point. Concentrate on several units in the line like this, to force a gap - and all of a sudden the German has a real problem. For the units still left untouched, does he Hedgehog them and risk losing them behind the lines?

Also note that Hedgehogging is only available to standard Infantry regiments and only on selected terrain, so it's not a panacea for all defensive situations for the German.

The rambling now endeth

cheers

Chris, you got right points - I'm not an expert player [:)] ..and as I stated before that it's not a game breaker. You always can find they way to Kharkov, and the best one against AI is from south, imho.

My point however, is that historically Germans have stopped Soviet offensive east of Kharkov not because of hedgehogs (as all-round defense tactics), but because in general they were much better organized and prepared. But in my several games against AI I found that it is still possible to harass Soviet offensive spearhead with panzer units while building a hedgehogged fronline with infantry on eastern outskirts of Kharkov. While the historical outcome is correct, the way we get it is not.

In general, I coming to conclusion that in game Soviet infantry/tank units are overrated and artillery is underrated. May be I have a bad luck, but there is almost 0 hits against hedghogged units and not much against entrenched [&:] [:D]

Anyway, thanks for answering

cheers

[e_barkmann]

In general, I coming to conclusion that in game Soviet infantry/tank units are overrated and artillery is underrated. May be I have a bad luck, but there is almost 0 hits against hedghogged units and not much against entrenched

well, I'll have to disagree here Helpless [:)]

Have a look at the Soviet Heavy artillery pieces - there are 8 of these units in the game and they really pack a big punch early in the game.

A heavy artillery unit can take out a Hedgehogged step on a roll of 2 or higher on a single die, for the first 4 turns of the game in the Kharkov area.  That should give you excellent odds to firstly knock out a step, then attack it with a combined arms close combat or two, force a retreat, then hit the retreating unit with a round or two of normal artillery (and since the retreating unit would no longer be hedgehogged/entrenched, the normal artillery will attack with one dice instead of two, making much better odds) and open up a hole in the line to exploit.

I understand that there were a number of hedgehogs to the east of Kharkov that significantly slowed the Soviets enough for the Germans to react with their Panzer deivisions and infact there was at least one hedgehog that resisted successfully throughout the battle, so I'd conclude that the Hedgehogs were at least a contributing factor to the Soviets not being able to invest Kharkov during the battle. 

And perhaps because of that, I agree with you entirely on your statement that the best way to Kharkov is from the south.

cheers Chris

[SS Hauptsturmfuhrer]

Ya if you give the Germans a chance to hedgehog the whole front, you are gonna be stopped bigstyle.  It happened in one game I'm playing and the Soviets are stuck and attacking the hedgehog wall is like poking at them with a leafy twig. 

Regarding the above posts, it seems you can't arty an enemy unit after it has been attacked by ground units.  Maybe the poster means on the next turn when it is trying to recover steps.  The problem there is the German player will surely move hurt units back to Kharkov and swap in fresh units to fill the gaps using a tidy rotation system.

[e_barkmann]

Regarding the above posts, it seems you can't arty an enemy unit after it has been attacked by ground units

True, but only if still in the same hex as the close combat attacks. That's why forcing a retreat is such a good idea...and make sure you have some spare artillery to pound the unit as it runs for cover.

so, in order:

1. fire the heavy artillery units
2. move ground forces in for one or more close combat attacks
3. Hopefully get a retreat result and then use normal artillery/airstrikes to cause additional casualties

cheers

[sabre1]

Remind me not to play you Chris.  You are one vicious you know what. [:D]

[SS Hauptsturmfuhrer]

To learn what it would be like if the Germans could not hedgehog, check out my AAR of my first battle.  I only hedgehogged like 2 units or so and the rest did a brave and apparently quite futile preemptive attack against the Russians on my first turn.   Some of my units dug in in the small forest, and while they were being overrun, the rest ran for cover in Kharkov city.  With the Germans being unable to hedgehog in the city, the Russians ground their way through the defending units at their own pace.  Note my one hedgehog which was bypassed. 

I just did my turns in 2 games, both turn 10 and in both I'm Russia.  One gentlemen did a solid hedgehog wall defense east of Kharkov which I'm swatting away at without much affect while the other gentlemen unhedged his units to do some very wild maneuvreing including an attempted encirclement of my whole assault force so we are all mixed up throughout the area and trading lots of fire.  Oddly enough, both games are the exact opposite in the Krasnograd and southern regions.  Like the hedgehog guy is going nuts flinging units all over the place with heavy losses on both sides, while the wild hedgeless guy is conducting very careful and efficient butchery of my vodka buddies in the south.  In both cases, it seems likely that the Stavka will not be including this battle in its official history.

[Helpless]

I'm not arguing that in current game well balanced with "hedgehog" as they implemented, mainly due to overpowered Red Army. But this is the case when two ahistorical features can give a historical outcome. [:)].. then, I would better call hedgehogs as entrenchment lvl 2.

Chris, thanks for the hint. Probably I'm too conservative while advancing to Kharkov from the east. Because usually when I meet strong hedgehogged line all Soviet Arty bonuses are gone [:D]

SS H, nice AAR [:)]

[e_barkmann]

Hi guys

I have done a screen capture and added some of my ramblings to a video regarding reduction of hedgehogs and heavy artillery etc, which you can view here:

http://merchant.on.net/hedgehogged/Hedg ... orial.html

It goes on for about 20 mins and will chew up around 78MB of data, so probably only worth looking at if you have a reasonably fast bb connection and are prepared to burn some serious data download

cheers

[oldspec4]

Some very good info in the video...any more videos out there for other aspects of the game?

[SS Hauptsturmfuhrer]

Chris, great video.  I like the carefully planned attacks and the way you teach how to check the die roll and step loss chances.  The game screen turned red during the last 5 minutes or so of the video.  My internet connection died during viewing so I'm not sure if the red effect is in the video or from my lousy internet connection.   Gotta say though, your monitor's background sure is peaceful and sweet for a master of warfare.

It might be good to sticky this video in the tactics & strategy forum so it'll be there for the long term.

[sol_invictus]

Nice tutorial on Hedgehog reduction Chris. Can't wait for the fat man to deliver my copy on Christmas so I can start delving into the mysteries of Kharkov.

[Helpless]

Chris, I'm also getting red screen - starting ~13:00 min and till the end. [:(] .. but till then it was very good course [:)] I'm happy that my hedgehog brainstorming at least resulted in such excellent tutorial [&o]

Btw, it still takes time to download it, but it also could be busy connection in the evening here..

[Helpless]

I solved the red screen problem by watching video with IE instead of FF. Must be some FF plugin issue..[&:]

[mariovalleemtl]

WOW ! Great work Chris ! [&o] One Légion d'Honneur for you.
 
Every gamer should see your tutorial.
 
mario

[e_barkmann]

thankyou for the kind words gentlemen.

I think the red screen issue for some is due to the file containing too many colours and file size being too large, so I will have to think on ways to fix that.

cheers

[Fred98]

Chris, great video!

What software do you use?

Suggest a limit of 15 mins.

Joe