Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
Hi Alexandra.Originally posted by Alexandra
...I'd point you to a book: Strange Victory - Hitler's Conquest of France by Ernest May.
Yes, it's a good website for those interested in french militaria but I'm actually more seeking things like topographical maps and AAR with as much details as possible regarding the facing forces. In fact the language that's causing me trouble isn't french but rather english for I AM french!Originally posted by David boutwell
"...I assume that you've already found the France 1940 website? Although it in French, I believe, there is a lot of good stuff there."!
I was asking for english websites because I'd like to see the US/UK point of view on this part of the war. Moreover, one of the best resources I've found so far are coming from some english speaking sources. As an example, It seems easier to find topographical maps of europe overseas than it is right here! 
Strange, isn't it?! But I'm just beginning my search and still hope the best is coming from where it's not expected. Regarding the book you're talking about, I'd say by the author's name (think I already heard of him) that it's a french one? I don't know "RZM imports.com", is it the correct url?I agree with your point of view about these "pre-war campaigns" (or wrongly called so). For my own I think that's definitly ones of the most interesting episodes of the ww2. Things could have collapsed for the Reich so many times during the lap of time between the Sudètes annexion and the fall of France, so many mistakes and tricks of destiny, it's simply fascinating. In gaming terms, I also prefer all the "old fashionned military stuff" from the end of the preceeding millenium and the 30's. I think it's often more challenging to battle with PzI in 1936 than it is with Tigers II in 45. I also like scale models and there too, I think the 20/30's armored cars are "sexier" than latest stuff
"...all of early war Western Europe, and Poland, have been neglected by the members of this community. I suspect that it is because of the lack of a lot of big tanks or large tank battles (...) If you need help on a France 1940 project, let me know."
About what is usualy called "large battles", I think "smaller ones" can often be a lot more fun too! I don't like SP battles that let me wonder if I'm playing at an operational level or a tactical game! SPs are by nature purely tactical games (despite SP3 being an attemp to widen the scope but still plays like a squad leader game) and I don't think it's a good idea to try to model Koursk or Stalingrad in one single 38 turns clash (by the way, why are the long campaign battles almost always lasting more than thirty turns... ??? sometimes boring... !)! I've often left the game with a sentiment of content after having played a 15 turns battle, desperatly trying to seize a single hex with my couple of squads supported by a 50mm mortar. That's not always so rewarding to me after a 2000m gunfight between a plentiful of super heavy tanks. But that's my opinion and I understand many would rather take their pleasure with the big toys, and alot of 'em! Well, I'm unlucky then!Originally posted by David boutwell
"...If you were looking for topographic maps of the US, you'd be in luck..."
As you say!! Thanx for the response; I'll keep searching online and if I can't find what I'm looking for, I'll order a couple of the Blue Series (I already have some but concerning my own locality (between Chartres and Le Mans, not very useful for this period of the war... )."...Since you are looking for topo maps of France, that is another story..."
I know Hill 282 is around Stonne but where is that Hill 112?"...I have a copy of the map of the area around Hill 112..."
Yes, it's exactly what I'm searching for but... for free... ! I'll show my plastic card only if I really can't find something at no cost."...Also, www.IGN.fr has these maps. I suspect that that is the kind of thing you want for topo map resources..."
That's right, I already downloaded it last year and I think it's the best website for someone interested in french military stuff (not only ww2). The sum of informations (and photos) gathered here is really amazing. The overall presentation is not very attractive but the interest is elsewhere. A great place to look at. The ones I could recommend (there are so many... ) are:"...A good site for pre-1940 French armor is http://www.info-micro.com/engins/sommaire.htm..."
I see. Anyway, for me that doesn't sound as good, I definitly prefer small engagements."...I was referring to "large tank battles"..."
I feel more stressed and content in dealing with a couple of Pz VI shouldered by some inf grunts and fighting 1 for 4. I also like larger battles (not as much though) but I think it's not very easy to portray and most of them are not as well made by the scens designers. It seems easier to find small satisfying scens than big confrontations. I share your thoughts about the eastern front. Anyway, it's a great feature in SPs series to allow a wide range of battle types; everyone can have what he wants most.I think you're right but a minority still exists anyway... and count me in!"...it seems that a majority of SPWAW activity is focused on the East (I'd love to be proven wrong here)..."
But not those involving US or GB troops... ! I think we must be unbiased, the majority of SP grognards and wargame players are coming from the US/GB and they tend to focuse on US/GB units engagements. That's absolutly fair though and I don't blame them. It's just sometimes boring to only find Overlord or Torch scens (I caricature but not that much"...a lot of potentially neat western theater scenarios are neglected..."
) on the western front. Of course the NA front and the liberation of Citadelle Europe where high peaks in this war but it hasn't been the whole! And for me, purely as a gamer, I don't find much pleasure in fighting in the desert for (as an example) the look of it rendered by SP is by far the worst landscape of the game! On the other hand, it's funnier (imho) to hide troops and prepare ambushes in the wooden lands than in the dunes! For gaming I think european theater is best (not as wild and difficult as jungle but more concealement oriented than desert). I also think there's more to vary the style of battles in portraying finnish, italian (have you ever seen a battle in Ethiopia 35... ?!), spannish battles or the campaign of Poland or France.That's why I think scripted campaign are by far the best! The top would be to have a long ww2 scripted campaign... !!!"...the AI chooses lots of German tanks, most of which are not Pz IV's!..."
I bet you LOVE Talonsoft Campaign Series and HPS ones?!"...I love to have about four seperate battalion-sized engagements going on across the map at once..."
(so do I!).I too like... ASL and it's small skirmishes"...But that is a personal preference influenced by my tendency to play the board games..."
Well, I think you've just joined in!"...I'd be willing to help out in any way that I can..."
You know what I'm looking for: maps, detailed OoBs for some key battles (for now: La Haye; Dordrecht (or one of the key bridges recaptured); Neufchateau; Sedan; Stonne; La Horgne; Chagny; Le Ham; Le Catelet). Not that much 
I will also need help in designing new icons and beta testing scens! Until then I only have a couple of maps (almost) done but not as acurate as I'd like (I made a map of Stonne but just for show, for I don't have any topo map as reference; anyway I think it should be fun to play with it). I also made some hundreds of picts and tried some tweaks on OoBs but nothing serious though. That's all but I'm not in a hurry and things just go on the way I can carry them on. )Originally posted by David boutwell
"...Maybe the French government equivalent of this organization has them online, as well..."
"...because I don't speak French..."
"...Try using a search on Google in French..."
"...if you really want to do things right, sometimes you just have to shell out some cash. I'm about to spend several hundred dollars to pick up several more books on Arhem in July and September. Series Blue maps are much cheaper!
). You may be right but I prefer to save money to buy new games or books rather than a full map only using a small part of it to see how that particular hill actually looks like! Of course, the "Series Bleues" are cheap (that's very relative for it cost about 12$ though) but if I must buy 10 maps to recreate an acurate 20 battles campaign, that's not that cheap still... ! Moreover, I may not be as rich as you seem to be... lucky you "Hill 112 is southwest of Caen..."
"Playing SPWAW is an educational tool for me, more than anything else."
"I think even American and British scenarios are neglected as well. There are incredibly very few scenarios focused even on the D-Day battles!"
But the US/GB scens represent more than a half of the subjects of battles in WaW and Ger/URSS 80% of what's left! As if WW2 began on 7th december 1941 and ended on 8th of may 1945... ! Moreover, WaW game engine allows to create scens ranging in dates from 1930 to 1949... !!! It's a battles sim, not only a limited WW2 sim!"I don't really like Talonsoft's Battleground Series..."
"The scale is too large. I prefer the scale of SPWAW. Just lots of units over a big battlefield."
"I don't think there's much I can do for you until you acquire the topo maps you need."
"I have over 500 LBM's of French stuff. If you send me what you have, I'll send you what I've got."
"And I'll bet you I've got stuff that you've probably not seen before!!"
Send me your list and I'll tell you what's left me puzzled Originally posted by Bing
"I could not agree with David more: Sometimes I truly wonder if WAW designers understand who won the war (...) the 82nd and 101st were the equal of anything out there (...) they were good. Very good."
)."...Take a look at the miserable performance of the Wehmacht when they attempted to "invade" Austria. The breakdown rate for vehciles was so bad the generals refused to discuss it."
"Anyone who thinks the ONLY reason we won was superior "resources" (whatever that is) has a slanted view of history . We won battles on our own because we were good in the field..."
NONE of the soldiers who fought, in any era of human history were "good" and none were "bad". What is that idea!! They were there, good or bad the reasons, they fought and died, or won, that's all. Fighting in a war is never an honor and heroes never existed. It's only a concept that brings consolation to those who survive and raise moral of those who continue to fight. Some men where brave, some coward, some were lucky, some were fools, others were not. That's all. Concerning the ressources of the allies, that IS actually what made the difference between winning or losing the war! German soldiers were as tough as any others and I don't think it's possible to say that the nazies would have lost the war if they could have rely on supplies as large as the allies did. But you're right that wasn't the ONLY reason. Thankfuly, Hitler was a madman... !"...I do think we could pay more attention to Western Euope and the Americans."
I see. But I was right... for I'm unemployed!Originally posted by David boutwell
"I'm not rich. I'm a school teacher."
It's funny for I used to work in a school too before I lost my job.No, I said that "lightly" (in fact I didn't intend to say it that way"You say that lightly, as if to imply that Hill 112 was just an insignificant location."
) because I plan to only portray may/june 1940 battles, for now. Maybe I'll use that location later.Well, you know, to be fairly honest, that's exactly what I think! For me every battle ever fought is only a grain of salt in something that's simply beyond us. That's not that trivial, it's my "realistic" way to see human behavior."So, to trivialize this location is like trivializing a map of the terrain over which the Battle of Austerlitz was faught!"
On a 1/25 000 scale I regret to say that I think that a map done with EF2 CAN BE realistic compared with some made with SP on a 1/5000 scale! If you try to create a small village of say 500x200m, it's simply impossible to do it. In fact it SHOULD be possible on such a scale but the tiles are unapropriate. For example, it's impossible to create a road that separates two rows of houses because such a representation would be 150m large on the SP scale! With the Campaign series you can create villages that small (in fact, even smaller) on one hex and depsite the fact it's visualy schematic and tiny (and generic, you're right), it sticks perfectly to the scale. But you're right, neither of these editors is perfect and CSs editors have flaws like the one you showed. I simply think CSs ones better stick to reality of a map and are by far easy to use. Moreover they tend to be less buggy! If you create a 0m level terrain in SP, put a tree, a road or a river on it, then cover the whole with a 20m clear terrain, your "clear" hex still uses the previous stuff as you can see whith hovering the cursor on it! For the battle of Calais, you're right and the scale shows it's limits here but it's really the same thing if you want to model a battle on a larger scale with SP! For example, I tried to create a battle for Stonne. I found it impossible to do something realistic on a 100x120 map! The villages are simply impossible to model with WaW editor! And I don't speak of the hedges that really are a pain in the ... to use for modeling how they are used in a real french countryside. Where I'm living, almost every minor and average road is borded by an hedge. Many farms also have a pool. You CANNOT model such details in SP but that SHOULD be possible on such a low scale! On the over hand, even if the house tiles are more generic, as you said, it IS actually possible to make something closer to reality with CSs editors (regardless of the actual scale used in the game)! I know it beacause I made a map of my hometown, including my isolated house... with it's pool"...show me a map in the battleground series that actually looks like an actual map of the location it is meant to portray..."
I tried with SP but the result is far worst and I spent much more time on it however!I'm not quite sure to understand what you really mean here. That's also the way I see things regarding the "research" I make to create (or trying to, for now"...Again, I approach this game from an educational perspective. I don't just play it to kill a few hours before bed."
) a battle or understanding what actually took place when I play an "historical scenario". On the over hand playing with WaW is still something I consider as being only a game play. I see few things that seem real to me in this game (or any other wargame) after the moment I began to play it. It's a kind of simulation alright, in it's own way, and it succeeds fairly well in it, but it's far from reality; that's what I think and the map representation is a good example of that. It tastes like real terrain but in fact it's often really far from it. I don't say any map ever made is not close to reality though... ! Depends on the subject. If you're only talking about all the stuff that's behind and beside the game, then I agree with your point of view. Finally, it's a d..... good game too (I'd like to add I desagree with that ridiculous censorship... ).No, it's still a reachable limit! As I said, too many basical things simply can't be done with it. Contrary to the CSs editors, it's not as flexible as it should be to easily create something totally sticking to the scale. Plus it's not "tough" to learn, it's just not ergonomic and far from being bug free. CSs editor may be more generic, it's far much easy to use, flexible and finally, rewarding. But that's only my opinion and I may be wrong"...Although it might be tough to learn, once you have learned how to use all of the editors available for SP, the sky is the limit!"
Are you kidding?! Maybe you're only talking about map editing? Trying to modify OoBs (specially the formations... ) or in game images is nearly impossible for someone who's not a wizzard! Try to create even a new unit encyclopedia text or a sprite for WaW and try the same thing for EF2 and come to me saying WaW is easier to enhance and modify... . As a simple comparison, EF2 uses standart file extensions (WAV, BMP, TXT) to define almost everything in the game. What about WaW... ?"...Every aspect of the game can be edited!!"
Well, may I help you here? There's a french editor who sells some of it's publications translated in english. This editor is named: "Histoire et Collections" and I can send you its color catalog if you give me your postal adress. They have a really interesting and well crafted collection of affordable books (around 30-40$) that have been released in full english versions. Moreover they also sell foreign publications (english, american, russian, romanian, japanese, polish, czech, etc. )."...I would love to have some of the books that I've seen referenced in that French armor website. The only thing holding me back are the shipping costs of ordering a book (that I can't read) directly from overseas..."
Maybe you should try something like Windows Commander? That's what I'm using instead of Windows Explorer and it's a good tool. Maybe you can create a CRC list with something like Winzip? That's what I did and it works pretty well, you just need to change the SFV extension for something with TXT"...I don't have an image list for all of my LBM's, and it would take too much time to do so..."
Well, are you huffy? If you are, I don't understand why but I'd like to know."...How often do you find an American gamer who is interested in pre-1940/1940 French equipment????"
I understand but in fact, that's exactly what you said: "...500 LBM's of French stuff (...) And I'll bet you I've got stuff that you've probably not seen before!!""...I didn't mean that I had pictures of equipment that you'd never seen before..."
I understand the lbm's you created I never saw them before, that was obvious, and it only made sense that you where talking about the french equipment! Sorry if I misunderstood but should I remind you that I try to communicate in a language that's not my own? How often do you find a french gamer who is posting in a US WaW forum... That's correct, I never saw any of these LBMs! I thank you by advance and will remember to send you a mail when I'll be in need for some LBM I can't find or create by myself. I see you have a real good documentation for most of the stuff you're talking about is really uncommon.Originally posted by David boutwell
On second thought, I'll go out on a limb and bet you that I do (maybe)have some LBM's that you've not seen...
You're right about a possible lack of translated european material but have you thought that publishing a translated book overseas requiers a great investment? Most of the books published on military subjects are coming from little structures (I mean not big wealthy publishers). Most of them, here in France, publish their books directly in english or never translate them. The customers interested in military stuff are not as numerous here, in europe, as they are un the US. I'm not absolutly sure but I think these are some of the problems encountered. I think that european material is ALSO lacking maybe because american publishers are more interested in what could be released by american (or english) authors. As you said, publications are existing about european battles and points of view and I think it hasn't been translated because it's expensive and maybe because there's a lack of interest from the overseas publishers?I'd like to play devils advocate for a moment. You said that minor nations need to be represented more, which I agree with. But this not totally the fault of us American gamers.
I think you're talking about "Steel Masters" ? It's (imho) the best french modeling magWhat looks like one of the best modeling magazines out there is a French magazine whose name escapes me.
It's published by Histoire et Collections.How many american modeling magazines are translated in french... ?It has what appears to be great resource material for battles, campaigns and equipment, but I don't buy it because I can't read it!
This publisher actually DO sells translated magazines (what we call here "hors-séries"; ie: "Tigers on the eastern fron" or lately: "1944, the americans in brittany")! I'd too really like to read foreign magazines (I know some spanish or east european publications are really interesting) but I don't think their publishers could afford to translate them. However, some of the east european publications are made directly in english, or partially tranlsated, I think.That's right. I know there are not that many fans here commited in creating good scenarii and I deplore it. I tried to find someone on a french forum to collaborate with on my project but still waiting... ! That's a fact, you americans are much more addicted on wargames and specially historical ones than the french players may be."...I'd love to see French SP gamers do the same...
Well, where can these scens be found? I don't know that much spannish or finnish (or russian, romanian, italian, and so on) made scens. At least not very much than french ones."...guys from Spain and Finland, as well as other "non-primarily-English-speaking countries" have, in my opinion, which means really nothing, and if I'm correct, done a good job of overcoming it.
Is the queen dead already?"...God Save the King."
In other words, just so our language diffrence doesn't lead to any misinterpretations, I enjoy our "debates". Keep it coming.....That's not more detailed with CSs, it's just looking better and easier to do. Because of the largest (and identical) scale, the best flexibility and ergonomy of the map editor, you can easily model something realistic based on a 1:25 000 topographical map. There's even a tool allowing to print a layout of hexes on a transparent sheet of plastic to easily convert Blue Series maps! It's much more easy, fast and good looking to create say a small road borded by hedges. If I was to create a map of 1km x 1km with small villages, it could be made much more accurately and realisticaly with EF2 editor than it would be with SP. Plus, I could do it in a few hours, without bugs, instead of an entire half day (took me almost two days in factOriginally posted by David boutwell
"...I REALLY don't see how you could be more detailed than that with the Battleground series."
). On the other hand, I would be unable (it might be possible though but I don't know how to do that) to place abandonned vehicles on this map but it'd possible with WaW (tedious but feasible)! As I said, neither of these editors are perfect but I really think CSs are, at least, uncomparably users friendly.I wouldn't say: "it can be", I'd rather say: IT IS complicated! But you're right, it's worthwile. I too bought my first SP box in 1995, then SP2, then the campaign disks, then SP3. I also played SP WW2 since it came out, then WaW and now I'm also playing SP MBT (I still dream of a mix between the best ideas in WW2 and WaW...). As you can tell I'm not exactly a newbie at playing SP series. Regarding the creation of new units and OoBs, I nearly don't think it's possible to do as many modifications with CSs editor than it is possible to do with WaW but I DO think I can create in EF2 a new unit sprite, a descriptive text and finally include it in a new OoB without having to spend a couple of days only finding it's place in the correct SHP files, struggling with SPILE and SPILC to update the EXE and hoping the new emplacement will be accepted by the game engine (and don't forget to deal with the palette and the transparent color and the positionning and..."...It can be complicated, but..."
). What I want to say is that modifying a unit is really easy with EF2 but it's a long process to simply figure out how it can be done with WaW (not to mention the fact that without Fred Chlanda editing tools it would be impossible to most of the mortal beings to simply open a SHP file... !). To be fair I must admit there are nearly the same limitations in CSs but globaly it's not as hard and complicated. lastly, if you want to modify many things, including the units places in formations, you must test almost every possibilies with the game engine to see if what you've done is working fine. With WF, if you want to modify an OoB for France during a certain year, all you have to do is using a drop down listbox and choose the period. With SP, finding every equipment used by the game engine for that very period of time and modifying the connected formations is a BIT more difficult. Of course, on the over hand, you can create OoBs much more accurate with SP but you'll have to be a real addict and spend a lot of time on it. Come on, don't tell me adding a new text in the encyclopedia is that easy! It's easy only if you pick an existing emplacement and change the text but it's some sort of magical lotery when you want to use a brand new position in the list. Anyway, you're right and I'm a beginner here but if I'm having so much difficulties (like many other apprentice) it's only because it's really difficult to understand the arcanes of the system (and maybe also because I want to do things on a scale too big for my capacities? ). That's obviously due to the fact that the editor and the game engine itself weren't meant to modify so many things in first place. Even the SP gurus agree to say it's not that easy to modify the OoBs and sprites!You can create a new unit at a new emplacement and assign it a brand new sound with new numbers in the list like: 708-710? And it works?"You can assign any sound file to any weapon. If you want your Auto-Mitrailleuse to sound like Star Wars blasters, you can do it"
I don't think so. I don't say CSs editor is able to modify as many things that WaW can (even if I'm not absolutely sure about that) but you can't say it's that easy. I don't own Rising Sun but I guess it's similar to WF and EF2 editors, right? I don't understand the problem you're facing for the answer seems really simple! You just have to take an existing OoB (there are three good and already crafted ones in West Front, that's faster than making one from scratch) and modify the units names and/or caracteristics even with a simple notepad and/or create new sprites if you wish so. Then you put your new OoB in a vacant slot and encrypt it to create it's corresponding weapons file system (don't remember the correct extension but it might be something like WPX I think). That's it! No reason to throw your CD to the rubbish bin"How long have you been playing SPWAW? (...) but you can't be too quick to pass judgement"
The utility for encryption (and many other useful tools) can be found on most of the good Campaign Series dedicated websites (sorry but haven't any link on hand right now but I'll search for you... if you're not in a hurry). But be warned not to play too much with these toys for you could find yourself neglecting WaW editor... Hope this helps?Ah, ok, I see my mistake! I wanted to say SHPs not LBMs!"...Battleground uses BMPs-SPWAW uses LBM's. The difference is basically nothing."
Of course, it's easier to change LBMs (even if the problem of the palette is still lurking).Well, I'm not a CSs wizard either but to paraphrase you: "don't be too quick to pass judgement" for I think that what you wanted to do with Rising Sun can actually be done"...That is **** near impossible to figure out, but I'd bet that since you like the series, you took the time to figure it out. Correct?"
And you can! I've already grabbed the 2000/2001 brochure that shipped with one of the latest issues of Steel Masters, plus a most recent one and I'll phone them on monday to see if there's something more complete about everything they sell in english version. I'll mail you all I can catch and if you need more informations about any book I'll be happy to forward your questions to their commercial department."...I'll take you up on that!"
If you're looking for that kind of book I really think they have everything you could dream of. There are particular books treating of uniforms, cars, trucks, pistols and any pieces of equipment available between 1930 and 1950. Your bank account should be the only limit"...I'd actually like to have some of their books with French Text (specifically, those on weapons and equipment of the French Army in 1940)."
If you need translations for something written in french, I'll be happy to help too ('til you don't ask me to translate 150 pages... ).Well, I'd be happy but I fear that it must be a really big file, isn't it?! I have a very slow internet connection and a limited time account per month! Maybe you could send me a small amount of it with the stuff you consider being the most interesting? I'll send you a list of what I've already scanned and you'll see if there's something you want."I'm just going to send you what I think you'd be interested in, and you can keep what you want and trash the rest."
Ok, sorry for my mistake."Not in the slightest! That was my way of begging!"
If you're talking about the guys at Magonline, no I'm not part of that group and I surely never will! I know some of them and they are really cool but one of the webmasters is a real moron and I've had real bad contacts with him, so... . Anyway, the group has made a really interesting job in setting up a PBEM game intending to simulate the polish campaign (or was it the spannish civil war?) with lots of players. Some playing the roles of HQ, supervising operations (sending maps and intel reports) and giving orders to the actual commanders of troops. I don't know if they have carried on that project but the idea was really good and it seemed to work."...there is apparently a French group (maybe you are part of it) that has created a series of sceanrios that are in French."
And so do I! In fact I've had a bad week and wasn't very inclined in playing or chating. I lost a friend in a car crash last week-end. She was 31 years old and we've been friends for 17 years. She was really beautiful and sweet and I miss her. Sorry to bother you with that but it's soothing to tell it."Hey, don't take so darn long to respond this time!! (...) I enjoy our "debates"."
