what to do...No Roy2008

[terje439]

I need to ask the more experienced players;

-how often did land based bombers engage Jap naval forces at altitudes of 6k feet and lower?
-how would you respond if the allied placed his LB at 6k feet and lower? (we have no HR against it, but)
-how is a KB lingering around PH best countered when my LBs decide that transports are more important, and my surface ships are unable to catch the enemy CVs, and my sub commanders are terrified of attacking?

Thanks.
Terje

[khyberbill]

-how often did land based bombers engage Jap naval forces at altitudes of 6k feet and lower?
it depends on a lot of variables. if you have sufficient escorts and exp then they will attack.

-how would you respond if the allied placed his LB at 6k feet and lower? (we have no HR against it, but)

2E bombers will do well at 6k if they have enough exp. in my games as exp goes above 65, the hit rate starts to noticeably increase. i consider it gamey to use 4E below 15k until mid 43.

-how is a KB lingering around PH best countered when my LBs decide that transports are more important, and my surface ships are unable to catch the enemy CVs, and my sub commanders are terrified of attacking?

kb just cant hang around too long, not enough endurance. i always hope my LBA goes after the transports. killing troops is the name of the game. if they are dead, they cant invade PH

[terje439]

Ah yea did not think about that. Hopefully he is gone in a few days then.

[AirGriff]

In my PBEM, we have no 4E nav attacks below 15,000', but everything else is ok. I don't know if you are playing a mod, but most mods only give a trickle of 4E's for quite a while, and you lose them more often at low altitudes, so I don't mind keeping them high.

2E's there is no restriction regarding altitudes. I typically keep them around 6k, but my opponent goes in lower. I've noticed morale drops significantly with those low altitude attacks. If he's coming in low, put some hard hitting fighters (losts of guns or cannon) on CAP at 10k or even 5k so they can pound the bombers.

If KB is hanging out by PH, then at least you know where it is. If he's actually hitting PH, then he's losing precious pilots, making it easier for you to cut down his carriers later. I would just sit tight and wait him out. Meanwhile, rush everything you can to your foward bases in CENPAC, SOPAC and New Guinea. Better yet, make a bold move somewhere else--move into Rabaul or Lunga and set up a trip wire for him now that you know where KB is. Do it fast with anything that floats, because he's eventually going to pull back his CV's to resupply, and then you don't know where he's going to pop up.

[John Lansford]

Twin engine bombers attacked ships all the time from low level during the war.  Beaufighters and B-25's especially were effective when fitted out with large numbers of fixed machine guns firing forward to kill off the AAA crews, then hit them with either skip bombs or low level bombing runs.  I wouldn't consider it gamey at all if either side used this tactic.

[AirGriff]

I love 100' strafe and skip bomb attacks.  In the game, I try to only do it versus transports.  The Beaufighters are the perfect barge busters, as are the P-400 with its upgraded cannon, but the B-25J and A-26 work great, too.  Warships with good AA really take a toll on the strafers, so I try to leave them alone.  Another problem is fatigue and morale on the squadrons doing this.  Fatigue and morale get hammered with these attacks, and you will start losing planes and well experienced pilots if you don't give them a rest.   
 
One problem I've seen with using fighter bombers on this type attack is that, for some reason, they often go in without escorts.  If there's CAP, the FB's are going to get hammered.  So, I may set a small group of bombers to do the same, and that seems to get the escorts to come along. 

[engineer]

Subs:  Remember that in 1941 you have the massively defective torpedos on all the US subs except the oldest S-boats.  By default I mostly use the more modern subs as minelayers and forevacuations.  To get more attacks with your subs make sure the captain is aggressive. 
 
LBA:  As the other commenters have noted, experience plays a key roll in the ability to achieve hits and at the outset of the game the Allies don't have a lot of experience.  4E LBA didn't make low altitude mass attacks although individual patrol planes (like the Privateers (navalized B-24s) often did.  If you really want to play a long-game attrition campaign against the Japanese make really high altitude attacks, 20,000+ feet, on the carriers.  The Zeros will be a little less effective, you'll be above flak, and the hits you wouldn't have made at 15000 feet still won't be made, but your pilots will start picking up the experience from combat operations.   Every fighter your defensive fire shoots down is an 80+ experience pilot who will be replaced with a ~25 experience pilot. 
 
Surface Ships:  For carriers, surface ships are little more than escorts or targets.  Keep your ships bottled up in PH with PT's on patrol against night bombardment mission.  Kyberbill is right about the endurance.  However, if the Japanese snatch an island (Maui, Hawaii, etc.) then the KB can replenish their magazines at the friendly port and sustain a serious blockade.  Your damaged ships will be blockaded in port, but your undamaged ships can sprint at full speed away from the KB and be out of range then loop back to a friendly port via an indirect route at regular mission speed. AirGriff is right about using the information that the KB is fixed at PH to make life miserable for less well supported axes of the Japanese advance.   
 

[terje439]

Thanks for the replies. The updated situation for me is as follows;

AF at PH is closed down. Kona is captured (and soon Hilo), my surface fleet are running for the west coast after losing 3 BBs at PH (2 scuttled, 1 sunk). Johnson Island is a lvl 9 port, lvl 3 AF in Jap hands. KB has been more or less stationary around PH for a week, and I can get no troops in nor any out. My PH based subs have mined Kona and Johnson Island.
Oh, and I lost two CVs on Dec 7th and Dec 9th [:D]

It is gonna be though just avoiding autovictory in this game!

[AirGriff]

Ok, that's bad news indeed, but trust me, he's almost certainly putting everything he has into taking the HI. Therefore, do what you can to make it painful, but don't put anymore effort into trying to get stuff in there. Rather, put all your effort into getting stuff down to Samoa, Fiji, New Hebrides and Caledonia bases and New Zealand. Get a regiment, base force, FA and Marine CD on some atolls--very difficult to take that combo if they are very well supplied. Use everything that floats and can carry troops. This is crisis time, and you've got to get boots on the ground in all those places or he's going to cut you off from Australia and New Zealand as soon as he finishes off Pearl. Get your carriers down there screening--he might try sending in some forces to take these places, but they likely won't be well supported. Get the British navy down to Australia. Once you have forces en route or on the ground in the above bases, get them very well supplied ASAP. Supply, supply, supply. If he bombs you out of supply it doesn't matter how many troops you have on the base. At least 40k plus in supplies at each base.

Losing Hawaii is a big deal, but he's committed now, so get on your horse and start charging to where he's not. Good luck!

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: engineer

 Every fighter your defensive fire shoots down is an 80+ experience pilot who will be replaced with a ~25 experience pilot. 

This isnt true. Any decent Jap player doesnt put a pilot on his carriers that isnt at least 80. Its a simple process of disbanding one of your land based groups into your carrier group. Easier to get experience on the land based guys than it is on the carrier pilots.

[Quixote]

One minor point that I haven't seen anyone else mention. You said your opponent sunk one of your BBs at Pearl and you scuttled two more. While it's too late to change for the ones you've already scuttled, I'd recommend never scuttling a US ship in a level 10 port. Even if they look bad ( 99sys, 90+flt ), they are still usually very reluctant to actually sink. If your opponent really wants to finish the ship(s) off, make him lose as many of his pilots to the flak at PH as possible. Some of those ships, the BBs especially, can be hit for the first 8 or 9 turns and may still not sink. If he keeps trying, he'll eventually get them, but this at least allows you to take a significant number of his elite pilots out of play. Also, while his planes are still hitting your BBs, that at least means they aren't able to spend their time hitting something else of yours. Good luck, and have some fun with it.

[terje439]

Yea I agree at the scuttling, but those two were at 99 and 97 sys damage after the first attack, and would be the only two ships left in port. And I also need to keep his points down at this point. When he takes PH he is roughly at 3:1 in VPs [X(]

And I actually feel I've downed quite a few planes of his;
-some 105 Zeros
-aprox 95 Bettys
-aprox 80 Nells
-aprox 40 Kates

So he is taking damage at PH, and the same at Manilla. But on Dec 7th he also para-invaded Mandalay and took out the fighters there, and yes I do indeed miss those. And with only one CV and one CVL I cannot actually risk moving about too much. His subs are everywere and it seems to me those Bettys can strike LA from Tokyo...

But fun?! H**L YEA!
This beats playing the AI, and I'm learning stuff every turn. I accept that I am likely to lose to autovictory, but I'll go down guns blazing firing errr missiles???

But a Q to you guys:
Say I do not lose due to autovictory. Should I eventually retake PH (1200 pts after all), or bypass it altogether and head for Japan by the Kuriles and/or the Southern Pacific? I would expect PH to be a tough nut to retake with lvl 10 AF and a lvl 9 AF at Johnson I would have to expect to lose some 30% of my ships at best...

And thanks for all the advice!
Terje

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: terje439

Yea I agree at the scuttling, but those two were at 99 and 97 sys damage after the first attack, and would be the only two ships left in port. And I also need to keep his points down at this point. When he takes PH he is roughly at 3:1 in VPs [X(]

And I actually feel I've downed quite a few planes of his;
-some 105 Zeros
-aprox 95 Bettys
-aprox 80 Nells
-aprox 40 Kates

So he is taking damage at PH, and the same at Manilla. But on Dec 7th he also para-invaded Mandalay and took out the fighters there, and yes I do indeed miss those. And with only one CV and one CVL I cannot actually risk moving about too much. His subs are everywere and it seems to me those Bettys can strike LA from Tokyo...

But fun?! H**L YEA!
This beats playing the AI, and I'm learning stuff every turn. I accept that I am likely to lose to autovictory, but I'll go down guns blazing firing errr missiles???

But a Q to you guys:
Say I do not lose due to autovictory. Should I eventually retake PH (1200 pts after all), or bypass it altogether and head for Japan by the Kuriles and/or the Southern Pacific? I would expect PH to be a tough nut to retake with lvl 10 AF and a lvl 9 AF at Johnson I would have to expect to lose some 30% of my ships at best...

And thanks for all the advice!
Terje

It sounds like you're playing some JFB wet-dream scenario. Which is it?

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: terje439

But a Q to you guys:
Say I do not lose due to autovictory. Should I eventually retake PH (1200 pts after all), or bypass it altogether and head for Japan by the Kuriles and/or the Southern Pacific? I would expect PH to be a tough nut to retake with lvl 10 AF and a lvl 9 AF at Johnson I would have to expect to lose some 30% of my ships at best...

And thanks for all the advice!
Terje

Depends on his defense. If he leaves a large garrison there then no, go around it, cut it off and starve him out. Its going to be hard to get to Oz with basically the entire Pacific gone, so I would think your best course of action is Aleutians to Japan direct. Its amazing how fast the Jap player forgets about Pearl Harbor when 7 US divisions are closing on Tokyo. Plus this gives you a land based route to use your superior mid to late war aircraft. Op losses are high in the cold weather zone and lots of missions wont fly but you would have the over all advantage. I assume you are playing stock. If CHS, then you can strike anywhere in the SE Pac from Panama but will need carrier support to do it. Dont commit piecemeal. Hold back until you can over whelm him.

[AirGriff]

It's been a while since I've been in that phase of the game, but I think he only has 7 or 8 divisions he can move around the map at will, plus roughly the same in brigades I think. Keep very close track of what enemy units are where. From that, you can figure out where he DOESN'T have troops. My guess is he's choosing to ignore your SEA command and possibly the DEI, in which case you might be able to make good on holding him off or even make a mild offensive there. That, or you could transfer units to SWPAC from there, but that's probably going to take a while to get the political points. On the one hand, you have to act quickly to set up a line of defense, on the other you mustn't allow yoursefl to feel forced into an offensive. Be patient and build your forces.

Oh, and just in case things get really bad, I suggest putting some token force all the way down in the Society Islands--maybe some stuff you pull out of the DEI or PI plus an undersized brigade or regiment--anything to keep him from just going in there with an NLF. The Societies are your last link to New Zealand and Australia. If he takes those, it's going to be tough. I'm embarrased to say I'm speaking from experience. [:(]

[terje439]

Game is scen 15 stock.

And again thanks for all the help.
Another big Q then [;)]

Manilla is held by a force aproc the same size as he has invested. My supplies are down to roughly 15k. And fort is down to 1, should I keep building the fort or save the supplies for the troops?

[AirGriff]

At this point, you need the supplies for repairing damaged units.  Building forts eats up supply.  It took me a while, too long, to realize how important supply is in this game.  When I first started playing, I thought "10 or 15,ooo supply at this forward base and everything is in the green--no problem!"  With a dedicated air attack on your port and airfield he can whittle that down very quickly (1 supply hit destroys 1% of supply, which doesn't sound like much, but if he gets just 2 supply hits a day for 10, 20 or 30 days, well, you get the picture).  Even more devastating to supply is naval bombardment, which is very heavily weighted in game IMHO.  Once you are below critical supply levels, then your units stop repairing, and that's pretty much the end.  So, I never ever stop supplying my forward or threatened bases, even if I have to hit the "waste" limit where you incur supply loss due to overstocked base, which I don't know the limit because frankly I don't care--something the allies can afford (which, by the way, your opponent is going to be extremely short of if he tries to take the whole Pacific by May '42--again, experience talking from one of my opponents who did that very thing). 
 
Ah, I seem to have gone off on a tangent.  Manilla.  It's toast.  Maybe airlift something out of there, or sub transport it, or just dig in and make him pay for it.  As mentioned above, don't build forts.  You need the supplies for the troops.  Also, don't accept replacements for the units, which also eats supply.  Better to feed replacements somewhere not yet on the chopping block. 

[engineer]

[blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: engineer

 Every fighter your defensive fire shoots down is an 80+ experience pilot who will be replaced with a ~25 experience pilot. 

[/blockquote]


Yamato Hugger:  This isnt true. Any decent Jap player doesnt put a pilot on his carriers that isnt at least 80. Its a simple process of disbanding one of your land based groups into your carrier group. Easier to get experience on the land based guys than it is on the carrier pilots.

 
The point is fair, but the 25 replacement is just one removed, entering a training program in the Home Islands or China.  The Allies win an attrition war so it's never too early for the Allies to start whittling away the superb starting pilots that the Japanese have.  Eventually they can overwhelm the training pipeline. 

[terje439]

too bad my opponent is well aware of his need for training pilots. We do not have a HR against keeping an isolated garrison alive to keep bombing. So now the lads at Bataan Island are target practice for fresh Japanese pilots [:@]

[AirGriff]

To stave off an autovictory, start building airfields and ports everywhere.  There are lots of undeveloped bases in India and OZ, but also Canada and Russia.  You have to keep that ratio down.  Kill lots of planes whenever possible, and shipping, of course.  Get points for all those.