What happens to Force Z in the game vs. real life?

[m10bob]

In the games I sent Force Z to Ceylon, they came in very handy later to bombard enemy LCU hexes around Rangoon with QE class BB's..

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I have had several opponents try to make Force Z a house rule to where I have to sortie it. I have never once agreed to it. Even if it has a very good surface battle it can never escape IJA bombers on Dec 8th and almost always winds up sunk by sometimes up to a dozen torpedo hits.
I don't think house rules should include giving your opponent 600 points right off the bat.

I always either sail south to the DEI to help out with the defense there or if I really want to play it safe I just sail it right into Colombo. From there early in the war I use it along the Burmese coast as heavy artillary in support of the British/Indian army.
As long as I keep system damage down and make sure TF speed is uniformly high I can always go in and bombard and get away before air attacks occur.

If I send it south to the DEI things get a little more dicey since your never really sure when your opponent is going to get a airfield open and pummel you.
There have been times before where I get cut off from India and the ships have to spend the first few years of the war fighting the war from Australia.

That would be the same as an AFB demanding that KB go to PH and no where else on turn 1. I wouldn't agree to it either. The whole point of being in command is making decisions, not having them dictated to you by your opponant. All that does is set you up to lose ships to a trap.

[greycat]

Force Z was destroyed because its commander underestimated the effectiveness of Japanese airpower. I agree that it's better to keep it intact as a 'fleet in being'. That way, the Japanese player will have to ensure that all of his invasions are heavily protected, or he risks losing them. This should slow his progress, which is the best the Allies can hope for at this stage of the war.[:)]

[AW1Steve]

I'd have to add that the Force Z commander had pressure on him that no player ever will. While the British Army and RAF is getting slaughtered, he was sitting there feeling helpless, and no doubt being asked "When is the RN going to do something?". Feeling of guilt can lead to some very irrational behavior....in this case a death ride. Don't ever make that mistake. [:)]

[niceguy2005]

I have found that Force Z results are poor unless the commander is replaced.  Set to top speed and with a highly aggressive commander, I have found that Force Z has about a 50/50 shot at causing some major disruption of the landings on December 8th.  In stock, with the standard commander, Force Z will usually engage the surface force, do nothing of significance, and get sunk on the way home.  With a highly aggressive commander, Force Z may well do serious damage to IJN surface fleet, possibly hang around to disrupt the landing, and will more than likely receive serious damage retreating to Singapore.

Of course Buffs and P-40s from the AVG should fly cap if force Z attacks.

I have had some luck using Force Z to take out the IJN BBs and then send in a second force of Dutch and UK CLs and DDs to attack the transports.

[Fallschirmjager]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I have had several opponents try to make Force Z a house rule to where I have to sortie it. I have never once agreed to it. Even if it has a very good surface battle it can never escape IJA bombers on Dec 8th and almost always winds up sunk by sometimes up to a dozen torpedo hits.
I don't think house rules should include giving your opponent 600 points right off the bat.

I always either sail south to the DEI to help out with the defense there or if I really want to play it safe I just sail it right into Colombo. From there early in the war I use it along the Burmese coast as heavy artillary in support of the British/Indian army.
As long as I keep system damage down and make sure TF speed is uniformly high I can always go in and bombard and get away before air attacks occur.

If I send it south to the DEI things get a little more dicey since your never really sure when your opponent is going to get a airfield open and pummel you.
There have been times before where I get cut off from India and the ships have to spend the first few years of the war fighting the war from Australia.

That would be the same as an AFB demanding that KB go to PH and no where else on turn 1. I wouldn't agree to it either. The whole point of being in command is making decisions, not having them dictated to you by your opponant. All that does is set you up to lose ships to a trap.

If we agree to not use historical first turn I have always let my opponents use KB to attack Manilla if they so desire.
I usualy lose 40-65% of the based submarines there with most of the taken taking various degrees of damages.
I am still not convinced that this is better than attacking PH but it does seem to be somewhat popular among Japanese players.

[JeffroK]

Against the AI using CHS155,
 
You cant sortie on 7 Dec as one of the capital ships (Repulse?) isnt in Singapore.
 
So I feel sending it north is futile as the japanese landings are pretty safe by then.
 
I send them to Batavia and with the DEI fleet try and fight the Kuching landings. Kuching, being L4 airbase can have betty flying out next day and make everything NW of Soerbaja out of bounds.
 
Next stop would be Darwin, with Houston & Boise if possible IFF you can get a strong Allied fighter presence.
 
Otherwise off to the East Coast of Australia and form a vey strong surface fleet with the RAN, RNZN & USN.
 
I suppose this means I am trying to keep them a step ahead of KB & Betty.
 
IMHO, sending them to Ceylon/Karachi saves them but they would find it hard to be useful until 43-44.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I have had several opponents try to make Force Z a house rule to where I have to sortie it. I have never once agreed to it. Even if it has a very good surface battle it can never escape IJA bombers on Dec 8th and almost always winds up sunk by sometimes up to a dozen torpedo hits.
I don't think house rules should include giving your opponent 600 points right off the bat.

I always either sail south to the DEI to help out with the defense there or if I really want to play it safe I just sail it right into Colombo. From there early in the war I use it along the Burmese coast as heavy artillary in support of the British/Indian army.
As long as I keep system damage down and make sure TF speed is uniformly high I can always go in and bombard and get away before air attacks occur.

If I send it south to the DEI things get a little more dicey since your never really sure when your opponent is going to get a airfield open and pummel you.
There have been times before where I get cut off from India and the ships have to spend the first few years of the war fighting the war from Australia.

That would be the same as an AFB demanding that KB go to PH and no where else on turn 1. I wouldn't agree to it either. The whole point of being in command is making decisions, not having them dictated to you by your opponant. All that does is set you up to lose ships to a trap.

If we agree to not use historical first turn I have always let my opponents use KB to attack Manilla if they so desire.
I usualy lose 40-65% of the based submarines there with most of the taken taking various degrees of damages.
I am still not convinced that this is better than attacking PH but it does seem to be somewhat popular among Japanese players.

Fjr,

I think the japanese see the SS fleet at Manila as an immediate threat, and will do almost anything to destroy them ASAP.

The old BB at Pearl are a longer term threat and they believe (maybe correctly) that KB can sort them out later.

Their problem would be if the USN goes on the offensive in 43-44 and had an extra 3-4 BB bombarding its islands bases.

[Fallschirmjager]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

ORIGINAL: Shark7




That would be the same as an AFB demanding that KB go to PH and no where else on turn 1. I wouldn't agree to it either. The whole point of being in command is making decisions, not having them dictated to you by your opponant. All that does is set you up to lose ships to a trap.

If we agree to not use historical first turn I have always let my opponents use KB to attack Manilla if they so desire.
I usualy lose 40-65% of the based submarines there with most of the taken taking various degrees of damages.
I am still not convinced that this is better than attacking PH but it does seem to be somewhat popular among Japanese players.

Fjr,

I think the japanese see the SS fleet at Manila as an immediate threat, and will do almost anything to destroy them ASAP.

The old BB at Pearl are a longer term threat and they believe (maybe correctly) that KB can sort them out later.

Their problem would be if the USN goes on the offensive in 43-44 and had an extra 3-4 BB bombarding its islands bases.

In PBEM you have to look at everything in terms of points.
In this case it would be the number of points you expect your sub force at Manilla to inflict versus what you excpect the battlefleet at Pearl to inflict.
Before late 1942/1943 the old slow battleships are pretty useless unless you assign them to escort supply convoys (which I do...it gives them at least a little something to do)
But after they are smothered in AA guns they turn in outstanding convoy escorts for protecting very important supply convoys or invasion forces. They suck up bomb and torpedo hits with a good survival chance and they throw up a curtain of steel. And then when you begin to invade islands they of course become the backbone of your bombardment forces doing massive damage when grouped together.

OTOH you have your submarine force at Manilla which contains many S-Boats which can get into the action early and have torpedos that actualy sink stuff.
As the Allies if you play like me (super conservative) this is just about your only means of offense for the entire first year of the war. I tend to lose alot of subs since I use them agressivly from day one and never let up. By the time the mid and end of the war roll around you will find yourself flooded with literaly hundreds of the finest submarines ever launched.

So it really depends on what your opponent views as the biggest threat and how they predict what will do the most point damage.
I have not played enough PBEM games to really give a good answer.

[Shark7]

Just for reference I usually go for the PH attack myself. The BBs I sink never come back to haunt me later, and those that don't sink suck up my opponants repair points early in the war. Plus there is also the chance that a good strike will sink even more important ships...the auxileries and destroyers that are in short supply in the first part of the war.

What I don't do in a PBEM that I will do in a game against the AI is stick around to carrier hunt. KB didn't have enough fuel to do that, so I do play that historically against a living opponant. The AI doesn't get that break, besides have you ever known the AI to complain? [;)]

[2ndACR]

I do a quarter toss on a first turn as Japan...........Manila or PH. Manila lowers the pilot loss, puts KB in the thick of things right from the start and kills lots of very dangerous S boats.
 
Very rarely can I sink a BB at PH. Damage most of them, yep, but it costs me 20-40 pilots and places KB a week away from where they are needed.
 
Manila works best if my opponent gets aggressive and brings his BB's out too early. Much easier to sink those dudes in open water. Plus even undamaged, they cannot out run KB or even baby KB. Once they are spotted, I can chase them down and kill them.

[AntoniChmielowski]

In my current game(Full Historical Campaign) I sailed Force Z to Trincomalee, to keep them for later !

[Barb]

In my latest PBEM, KB pasted manila together with smaller carriers. I should consider Cavite naval base unusable for the Japs for at least year after capture of Manila due to number of wrecks [:)].

Also PoW and Repulse got their portion of bombs and torpedoes while in Singapore Harbor. Repulse finaly blow up in January after turret hit penetration ignited magazine (she had 99 sysdmg before). PoW tried to sneak out with 99 sysdmg and 0 fire / 0 flood. Weather grounded Jap planes, but there were too many jap submarines around. On first turn she took 3 torps getting her for 70 flood damage and some minor fires. Next turn she took another two torpedoes finally sinking her due to flood damage (not sysdmg).[X(]

I shouldnt mention that after month or so pounding the poor ships in Singapore, they were almost completely stripped of supperstructures. Actualy they could be called Razee. [:)]