Ecco....

Welcome to the new war raging across hundreds of light years at once, with mechanized Titans as the main fighting force.

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Megrez
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Ecco....

Post by Megrez »

to Iceman

I'm saying this:
if you're inside an f18 and you want to fire a sidewinder to your ugly-bad-iraqi enemy, you have to push a button on the control stick :)
You could be the best pilot of the entire U.S. Air Force, with a great ability in combat and with an high precision in firing sidewinders, but if you don't press that button you cannot fire the missile :)
In the same way I don't think a jock could "activate" a weapon only 'cause he/she has got the ability related to that weapon; he/she is inside a cockpit and probably he/she activates weapons using some controls inside the cockpit.
So the abilities related to the different kind of weapons determine jock's firing-precision, but the action of "FIRING" the weapons is a much more complex issue.
One of your arguments against my idea is that an infected titan could not fire its weapons 'cause the jock of the attacker titan cannot control its weapons.
And you affirm this thing 'cause you say that those weapons are controlled by weapons' abilities of the jock inside the infected titan.
So I'm continuing to think that you probably didn't catch well my idea.
The weapons installed on a titan are controlled by the jock who "activates" them ("the one who pushes the button").
In particular, on medium, heavy and assault titans, the controls are part manual and part neural ('cause of the neural bridge device).
If a titan is infected by nanos, it's the jock of the attacker titan who can control the infected one in some cases.
So he/she can "push the button" instead of the jock of the infected titan, using his/her own abilities to fire the weapons.
I'm not saying that the neural-sense is a weapons' ability; I'm saying that weapons' abilities determine the firing-precision with the different kind of weapons, but they have nothing to do with the "activation" of the weapons, which is certainly due to some kind of controls.
This is my point of wiew, and maybe it's wrong, but I have some doubts about yours.
About the EMP:
I'm not saying that the new weapon will surely unbalance the races. I hope it won't.
But I think that the concept of that weapon has got more consequences than the ones you discussed about on this forum.

Meg

P.S.: I usually play with realistic flight-simulators or with RPG-games. I tried to play with Mech Warrior sometimes ago, but I didn't like it. I prefer Mech Commander gold.
Thorgrim
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Post by Thorgrim »

Thank you for making my point, but I don't need the help. My point was precisely that, weapons are fired with a STICK, not the neural bridge. The jock's ability with the STICK depends on his abilities (des/rea), not any thought he might have. What is it with you and "control" weapons?!
Have you grasped the essence of the battle computer yet?

About the EMP, what has been discussed here was merely "guessing", including by you. You don't know how it works. Period. How do you know if the consequences have been fully thought out or not? You have a problem man.
Iceman
Megrez
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.......

Post by Megrez »

Mmm... I don't agree with you.
Small titans (recon and light) are piloted through manual controls (dexterity / reaction).
But big titans (medium, heavy and assault) are piloted mainly through the neural bridge device, as it's written in the manual:
Medium, heavy, and assault titans are controlled with the help of a neural bridge, connecting the jock with
its machine. Each character has a personal sensibility towards this device, called neural
sense. Therefore, neural sense and dexterity are the primary/secondary attributes for
piloting medium & heavy titans.
So probably, in a small titan (recon and light), the weapons are activated by the pilot "pressing the button" on the stick.
But in a big titan they're activated by neural impulses. I think to something like that old movie called "Firefox" (with Clint Eastwood), in which there was a combat-jet with a neural device able to activate weapons if receiving neural impulses by the pilot.
You could say that also in a big titan weapons are activated manually, but it's not written anywhere (or at least I didn't notice it).
It's true that also a big titan has got manual controls, but I don't know precisely the purpose of these manual controls (I tried to find out, but it's not written).
My opinion is that they are emergency-controls, in case the neural device breacks down.
But I'm not sure, and I accept comments about this.
Anyway, talking about the concept of NWM vector, it's quite clear that, if the neural bridge device is infected, it's possible to activate also the weapons.
When I used the words "push the button" related to big titans I put them between inverted commas, 'cause I was using those words figuratively as a synonym of "activate the weapons".
So when you say that on a big titans weapons are activated manually I don't much agree with you.
You told me:
Hey Megrez, you sure like to quote, but you only quote the parts that interest you.
To say the truth I'm thinking the same about you :p Sorry.

About the battle computer I believe to the thing Eric told me:
You can lock target without having a battle computer. The main purpose of the Battle Computer is to increase a jocks chance to hit the target.
What else should I grasp?
About the EMP, what has been discussed here was merely "guessing", including by you. You don't know how it works. Period. How do you know if the consequences have been fully thought out or not? You have a problem man.

In fact I didn't say that the new weapon will surely create problems with races: I said that I hope it won't.
My criticism wasn't directed to VB (which developed the new weapon), but to the discussion about the EMP pulser in the forum; It seems to me not very thorough.

And about the fact that I have a problem.... well... I prefer not to take notice about your cutting remark... I try always to be polite and It's not my style to be offensive with people.

Megrez
rosary
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Post by rosary »

I guess I should mention that the EMP has a chance to do light damage vs. systems. I do not think it affects pilots regardless of race. I realize there is an argument that this device could possibly damage an android or cyborg pilot but it doesn't. I prefer to listen to arguments about why something like this wouldn't affect these races. For one thing, I hate instant kill weapons. They screw up the gameplay.
rosary
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Post by rosary »

I probably shouldn't have used the word Argument before. Let's change it to discussion. I prefer that too. But to start it off.

Emp has a small chance to do light system damage.
The Titan is insulated against these types of attacks though not perfectly. So when the EMP is successful it can sustain light system damage.

The life support system is also insulated against these types of attacks providing protection to the pilot so even a successful attack with the EMP would be very light.

A cyborg or Android pilot is even further insulated against this type of effect. So any EMP effect would be negligible.

That's how I see it.
Korgmeister
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Post by Korgmeister »

I always feel like there's some great library of ToS canon that I am ignorant of, but here goes:

One thing that people have neglected to mention in their 'F-18' example is that they've left out the hard part: Getting a lock on the enemy in the first place.

To get a lock on the enemy, you have to be able to calculate and anticipate their movements on the fly, also taking into account hot spots and other variables such as wind etc.

That's why the guided weapons skill is INT/INS based.

Anything further I have to say will probably be muddied by the fact that I don't quite know what you're discussing. But wether this Nano thing effects the manual controls or the neural bridge, hitting a bad guy at a distance involves more than pushing a **** button!

It's an intricate thing that invovles many different actions, processes and variables, and interfering with just one will screw it up.

Geh: Realism monkeys...now I'm remembering why I play White Wolf games.
Korgmeister - Mad scientist of pessimistic ToS design and unluckiest ToS player in history.

Please note that all comments that any weapon, design, tactic etc are better are: FROM AN ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW and should be recieved in such light
Thorgrim
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Post by Thorgrim »

Oh, I like the way you use the word probably. Tell me, why do you base your argument on movies unrelated to BattleTech (where ToS gets origins), and not on the BattleTech universe?
Doesn't it strike to you as logical that if a weapon skill's primary attribute is dextrerity or reaction that that weapon is fired manually? How do you make the *giant* leap to it being fired by the neural link?! It doesn't say anywhere? It doesn't need to. Emergency controls? Ya, keep squirming.
Quotes: I don't need to quote from the manual, when I do it it's just to complement whatever you "forget" in your own quotes.
Battle Computer: if you really have grasped, then why do you keep making these silly assumptions?
EMP: how thorough can a discussion be if it's about something people don't know how it works? You can discuss all you want about its possible effects, but I guess you'll be doing it alone.

And I'm terminating my participation in the discussion with you right here, someone else should take the job of enlightening you - if anyone is interested that is.
Iceman
Thorgrim
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Post by Thorgrim »

Actually Korgmeister, that's precisely what the battle computer does. Factor target's speed and heading, your own speed and movement, wind direction and strength, gravitational effects, intervening terrain, ... It'll tell you *exactly* when to press that button on the STICK so you have the highest probablility of scoring a hit - crosshairs changing color, pulsating gold, or whatever, depending on what "canon" material you use as reference, be it the BT novels, the MW computer game, the MW RPG, whatever.
Hence the 25% penalty to hit when you have no battle computer, you have to do all calculations by hand.
Iceman
rosary
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Post by rosary »

Originally posted by Thorgrim
Actually Korgmeister, that's precisely what the battle computer does. Factor target's speed and heading, your own speed and movement, wind direction and strength, gravitational effects, intervening terrain, ... It'll tell you *exactly* when to press that button on the STICK so you have the highest probablility of scoring a hit - crosshairs changing color, pulsating gold, or whatever, depending on what "canon" material you use as reference, be it the BT novels, the MW computer game, the MW RPG, whatever.
Hence the 25% penalty to hit when you have no battle computer, you have to do all calculations by hand.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Though I suspect that the higher end battle computers may actually fire without a lot of assistance. But that's just behind the scenes mythology if you know what I mean. Not actual gameplay stats.
Korgmeister
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Post by Korgmeister »

In that case, I'm guessing the skill must be INT based because the pilot needs to be pretty handy with the battle computer.

Also, when it said 'guided' I never saw wether it meant wire guided, radio guided, or F&F missiles. There's obviously a big difference, and in the former two, a fair amount of smarts on ballistics are needed to make the missiles go boom in the right place.

Even with the Battle Computer nursemaiding you thorough it, you still need to have an effective practical knowledge of ballistics (as well as pain old good timing) to know when to fire them correctly.

I think it's INT/INS because you don't just need to press the button when the crosshairs 'go gold'. You need to anticipate that happening.

Mind you, I find this is based off that contraversial NWM argument...if so, I think I'll butt out. That discussion is far more trouble than it's worth.
Korgmeister - Mad scientist of pessimistic ToS design and unluckiest ToS player in history.

Please note that all comments that any weapon, design, tactic etc are better are: FROM AN ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW and should be recieved in such light
rosary
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Post by rosary »

There are 2 types of guided missiles. Heat and Energy respectively. They have varying ranges and damage.
PrinceCorrin
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Post by PrinceCorrin »

There are several types of real life guidance systems.
There's the most common, which is radar (locks onto a target by radar and follows it's own bounced signal) Chaff is, and has always been, the most effective way of confusing the radar signal.
Heat, like the Sidewinder (follows the heat signature left by the target) Some flares can distract these types, though the Sidewinder is actually too smart for most of the flares used today.
and my favorite: TV, which locks onto the target visually, and is the most difficult to fool, since chaff and flares are ineffective.
I thought all the GMs in ToS where heat seeking.
I see your lips moving, but all I hear is: Blah Blah Blah, I'm a friggin moron.
rosary
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Post by rosary »

I was referring the the energy guided missiles in Warring Suns. These are closer range guided missiles that do high damage.
firestorm
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:D

Post by firestorm »

yipeeeee!!!!
i've been hoping there'd be another way to use the guided missiles skill eventually.

anyways, on the subject of the stupid NWM vector or whatever it's called (it's 4:15 AM and im lazy): the manual quote says the big titans are "...controlled with the help of a neural link..." I take that to mean that moving the actual titan around is helped by the link. (this is supported by the Neural Sense being needed for the piloting skills) figuring out where for the jock to shoot might be done via the battle computer, but a) the battle comp doesn't tell the guns when to shoot. it just tells the jock where to shoot. b) i doubt the guns are gonna go off unless the button/trigger/switch/insert-activation-method-of-choice is hit. c) once the button is hit, a signal is sent stright to the desired wepon, telling it to shoot.

now, due to the lateness of the time, and my not being out of high school yet, some of that may be incorrect.
therefore, i believe i shall go to bed and get one day nearer to not being in high school any more.
www(dot)attnam(dot)com
Thorgrim
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Post by Thorgrim »

I hear those bombs are falling on weddings nowadays. Maybe they could use a better guidance system, like a brain in the pilot's head?
Iceman
PrinceCorrin
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Post by PrinceCorrin »

Bombs? What bombs? I was talking about missiles. Bombs are altogether different.
Ambiguity will get you nowhere.
I see your lips moving, but all I hear is: Blah Blah Blah, I'm a friggin moron.
rosary
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Post by rosary »

Weapons shouldn't be used at weddings to celebrate. It is just absolutely stupid to shoot bullets into the air. They come down at the same velocity. Who knows who is going to get hit?
Thorgrim
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Post by Thorgrim »

Shame you didn't get it. Eric did.
Weapons shouldn't be used period. But if they are anyway, a wedding seems as much a good reason as any other. At least they're not fired at someone else, even for "self-defense" purposes...
Iceman
LarkinVB
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Post by LarkinVB »

If falling bombs can make happy something is going seriously wrong. Sometimes its a sad sad world we do live in.
PrinceCorrin
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Post by PrinceCorrin »

Sad indeed. But I work to protect my home. My home being safe makes me happy.
I see your lips moving, but all I hear is: Blah Blah Blah, I'm a friggin moron.
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