I am now at the point in my WitP career where I am conducting large scale offensives as allies--it's mid '43. I am currently trying to take Aru with what was 2 and now 3 divisions, well supported (I think) by 2 tank units, an FA rgt, some base units and multiple HQ--now sending in some Raider units, as well. All are very well supplied. My esteemed opponent has 2 brigades, six or seven Nav Guard units, an SNLF and a variety of base units, all of which have been pounded for a long time by sea and air. His fort level is 0 and has been from the start. Their numbers are dropping, but not by much per day and my attacks don't seem to be doing very well. My units aren't really suffering that much, but they don't seem to be gaining ground, either.
Those are the specifics of my current problem, but what I am really looking for is generally how more experienced players look at the numbers shown in combat replay and reports, and then decide when is the best time to launch a deliberate or shock attack. When the replay is running, there seem to be 2 sets of numbers--one's during bombardments that are low, and then later they pop up to what looks like the standard assault value of the unit, and then I think they change again during assaults. I try and keep note of these numbers from day to day to see trends. What do more experienced players look for to determine how worn down a unit is? Is there a way to tell if he is seriously disrupted or fatigued? How do you use that info and then look at your own units to see when the time is ripe to launch an attack, and which type of attack--deliberate or shock? Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.
art of ground combat
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: art of ground combat
2 brigades equals 1 1/3 division. adding additional stuff could bring their forces up to equivalent of 2. Bring more combat infantry.
The numbers during bombardment round of attack should mean Guns available for fire. numbers during assault round are AVs i think.
If his forces are not regenarating (his AV is becoming lower and lower) he is being to worn down.
Deliberate: lower overal losses
Shock: higher overal losses (if you got "fat 1:1 ratio"* with deliberate attack you should launch a shock attack next turn if your troops are not serioustly affected)
*fat 1:1 is somethink like 900:500 adjusted AV.
The numbers during bombardment round of attack should mean Guns available for fire. numbers during assault round are AVs i think.
If his forces are not regenarating (his AV is becoming lower and lower) he is being to worn down.
Deliberate: lower overal losses
Shock: higher overal losses (if you got "fat 1:1 ratio"* with deliberate attack you should launch a shock attack next turn if your troops are not serioustly affected)
*fat 1:1 is somethink like 900:500 adjusted AV.
RE: art of ground combat
In a shock attack, the defender gets two shots at your troops so your losses will increase. My experience with shock attacks has not been particularly good, what-ever benefits accrue (greater odds of retreat or surrender(??)) usually arrive a day or two later with patient deliberate attacks and lower losses/disruption on your own units. When his adjusted assault value dips really low (sub 20), then a shock attack can overrun the defenders' position and end the battle. With a fairly large defending force like you've described, what is likely to happen is that some of the individual units will start surrendering.
Here's a typical big ground force campaign:
0) Recon & Objectives: What is your plan of campaign and what does the Japanese player have in the way? Is the prize worth the cost?
1) Prepare assault units: Unprepared units have drastically reduced attack values. This can also apply to making sure units rest up in well-supplied/supported bases prior to the offensive to boost their morale (this increases the odds that their weapons will fire during combat and inflict losses on the enemy). Morale starts rising after disruption is reduced to zero in a base that has sufficient support, supply for the unit, and at least 10,000 supply at the base. It also means that headlong offensives are likely to get whacked in a counter-attack when units are worn down with poor morale after several successive combats.
2) Launch envelopments: I want to kill the defenders and not just push them back up their lines of communication for another battle later so cutting off retreat to trap the defenders in their base is part of basic operational planning
3) Achieve Air Superiority: Air attacks don't kill lots of units, but they disrupt defenders and attacks on airfields occupy the defending engineers so they can't dig fortifications. Both of these translate into a lot fewer losses for your ground forces. Likewise, preventing enemy bombers from hitting your troops can make the difference between starting 1:1 attacks that will reduce their defenses and a 0:1 attack that gives your side crippling disruption and heavy losses.
4) Include combat engineer regiments: Combat engineers give added odds of reducing defending fortifications, sometimes even in a 0:1 unsuccessful assault if the fight isn't too one-sided.
5) Use Mass: When approaching the enemy base by land (or sea for that matter) get all your combat power there in as short a period of time as possible. Units that arrive piecemeal (especially one's prepped to attack) may end up launching a series of 0:1 assaults where the corps arriving at once (typically I use a "Follow" movement command) will be able to generate a single higher odds attack.
6) Pace yourself in the battle: Even successful attacks will disrupt attackers and the defenders, being in a friendly base, will remove disruption more quickly. Keep an eye on your disruption and the odds and take a break now and then to rest your infantry with bombardments or defensive posture before resuming deliberate or shock attacks.
7) Include headquarters units in your assault: These units will absorb disruption from your infantry and carry supply with them to sustain your attacks.
8) Have plenty of supply on hand: In amphibious assaults that means have transports with supply off-loading over the beach but in land campaigns, this usually means having plenty of units and headquarters at the nearest friendly bases to the point of attack.
9) Spend political points for decent leaders: If you've divided units sometimes the fragments get staff officer non-entities. Some of the Allied leaders are especially problematic. For ground combat you want leaders with high ground combat and aggression scores.
10) Patience: If you're the Allies, then time is usually on your side, more supplies, units, and combat power are coming into the theater of operations. In a fluid situation, seizing opportunities is called for, but often in WitP, you're left attacking positions that the Japanese will have held for months or even years so you almost have to assume massive fixed fortifications and supply stockpiles. Preparatory bombardments from the air or by sea are often key.
11) Use Mass (Part 2): As the Allies you have to get back into a point lead and hopefully a 2:1 lead for a 1945 autovictory. Terrain gives a lot of points but a majority of the points are likely to end up being "hard" points each player gets for killing the other player's units. That means you have to take the terrain at a favorable loss ratio or you still end up behind on points. Lots of troops to kill the enemy faster at lower losses to you is better than just enough and long bloody battle.
So there's a 12 step program for Allied ground combat.
Of course, another strategy is to get B-29's on Okinawa & Sakhalin and just strategic bomb the heck out of the Home Islands.
Here's a typical big ground force campaign:
0) Recon & Objectives: What is your plan of campaign and what does the Japanese player have in the way? Is the prize worth the cost?
1) Prepare assault units: Unprepared units have drastically reduced attack values. This can also apply to making sure units rest up in well-supplied/supported bases prior to the offensive to boost their morale (this increases the odds that their weapons will fire during combat and inflict losses on the enemy). Morale starts rising after disruption is reduced to zero in a base that has sufficient support, supply for the unit, and at least 10,000 supply at the base. It also means that headlong offensives are likely to get whacked in a counter-attack when units are worn down with poor morale after several successive combats.
2) Launch envelopments: I want to kill the defenders and not just push them back up their lines of communication for another battle later so cutting off retreat to trap the defenders in their base is part of basic operational planning
3) Achieve Air Superiority: Air attacks don't kill lots of units, but they disrupt defenders and attacks on airfields occupy the defending engineers so they can't dig fortifications. Both of these translate into a lot fewer losses for your ground forces. Likewise, preventing enemy bombers from hitting your troops can make the difference between starting 1:1 attacks that will reduce their defenses and a 0:1 attack that gives your side crippling disruption and heavy losses.
4) Include combat engineer regiments: Combat engineers give added odds of reducing defending fortifications, sometimes even in a 0:1 unsuccessful assault if the fight isn't too one-sided.
5) Use Mass: When approaching the enemy base by land (or sea for that matter) get all your combat power there in as short a period of time as possible. Units that arrive piecemeal (especially one's prepped to attack) may end up launching a series of 0:1 assaults where the corps arriving at once (typically I use a "Follow" movement command) will be able to generate a single higher odds attack.
6) Pace yourself in the battle: Even successful attacks will disrupt attackers and the defenders, being in a friendly base, will remove disruption more quickly. Keep an eye on your disruption and the odds and take a break now and then to rest your infantry with bombardments or defensive posture before resuming deliberate or shock attacks.
7) Include headquarters units in your assault: These units will absorb disruption from your infantry and carry supply with them to sustain your attacks.
8) Have plenty of supply on hand: In amphibious assaults that means have transports with supply off-loading over the beach but in land campaigns, this usually means having plenty of units and headquarters at the nearest friendly bases to the point of attack.
9) Spend political points for decent leaders: If you've divided units sometimes the fragments get staff officer non-entities. Some of the Allied leaders are especially problematic. For ground combat you want leaders with high ground combat and aggression scores.
10) Patience: If you're the Allies, then time is usually on your side, more supplies, units, and combat power are coming into the theater of operations. In a fluid situation, seizing opportunities is called for, but often in WitP, you're left attacking positions that the Japanese will have held for months or even years so you almost have to assume massive fixed fortifications and supply stockpiles. Preparatory bombardments from the air or by sea are often key.
11) Use Mass (Part 2): As the Allies you have to get back into a point lead and hopefully a 2:1 lead for a 1945 autovictory. Terrain gives a lot of points but a majority of the points are likely to end up being "hard" points each player gets for killing the other player's units. That means you have to take the terrain at a favorable loss ratio or you still end up behind on points. Lots of troops to kill the enemy faster at lower losses to you is better than just enough and long bloody battle.
So there's a 12 step program for Allied ground combat.
Of course, another strategy is to get B-29's on Okinawa & Sakhalin and just strategic bomb the heck out of the Home Islands.
RE: art of ground combat
Ok, good stuff. Thanks.
So, in the replay, the lower numbers next to each unit during bombardments are tubes available, and the larger value numbers that pop up later are assault value--adjusted or unadjusted?
On the combat reports, assault value is simply the sum of all the units individual assault values in their individual pull up screen, yes? The adjusted assault value is adding qualifiers for prep points, fort level, and HQ's, yes? And I assume it is the adjusted AV that determines odds ratio? The odds ratio would be preferrable at 3-1 or more for a shock attack?
So, in the replay, the lower numbers next to each unit during bombardments are tubes available, and the larger value numbers that pop up later are assault value--adjusted or unadjusted?
On the combat reports, assault value is simply the sum of all the units individual assault values in their individual pull up screen, yes? The adjusted assault value is adding qualifiers for prep points, fort level, and HQ's, yes? And I assume it is the adjusted AV that determines odds ratio? The odds ratio would be preferrable at 3-1 or more for a shock attack?
RE: art of ground combat
All of Engineers points are very good.
On the practical side, do not attack twice in a row unless your 1 to 1 was very close to 2 to 1. You will just disrupt your troops faster.
Overall let your troops bombard or rest till Disruption is under 20, and Fatigue is under 50 then hit him with a deliberate or shock depending on what you need.
Below are two examples, all you really care about are the bold adjusted assault value. As can be seen even though the Japanese have more assault points 3k vs 1.7k, the adjusted values (city hex, supply, commanders, disruption, forts etc) show that he is not close to taking down this for so his attacks should be deliberate to avoid losses and longer rest times, and he needs to hit daily with bombardments both ground and air to weaken the defender and drain his supplies. Engineers would also help reduce forts. (he did all these and eventually took the base)
Ground combat at Manila
Japanese Shock attack
Attacking force 161770 troops, 633 guns, 122 vehicles, Assault Value = 3051
Defending force 74115 troops, 466 guns, 298 vehicles, Assault Value = 1703
Japanese max assault: 5846 - adjusted assault: 2296
Allied max defense: 1761 - adjusted defense: 7429
Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 1)
Japanese ground losses:
7908 casualties reported
Guns lost 137
Vehicles lost 16
Allied ground losses:
1048 casualties reported
Guns lost 55
Vehicles lost 4
This second example shows a base ready to be taken adjusted AV 22 to 15 close to 2 to 1 with deliberate. If I was in a rush I would probably shock or wait 1 day of rest to reduce disruption and fatigue then shock.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Nandi
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 554 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 20
Defending force 1980 troops, 8 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 1
Japanese max assault: 15 - adjusted assault: 22
Allied max defense: 0 - adjusted defense: 15
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 3)
Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 2
Japanese ground losses:
31 casualties reported
Once again no reason to watch the replay the adjusted assault and defense will tell you how you are doing.
On the practical side, do not attack twice in a row unless your 1 to 1 was very close to 2 to 1. You will just disrupt your troops faster.
Overall let your troops bombard or rest till Disruption is under 20, and Fatigue is under 50 then hit him with a deliberate or shock depending on what you need.
Below are two examples, all you really care about are the bold adjusted assault value. As can be seen even though the Japanese have more assault points 3k vs 1.7k, the adjusted values (city hex, supply, commanders, disruption, forts etc) show that he is not close to taking down this for so his attacks should be deliberate to avoid losses and longer rest times, and he needs to hit daily with bombardments both ground and air to weaken the defender and drain his supplies. Engineers would also help reduce forts. (he did all these and eventually took the base)
Ground combat at Manila
Japanese Shock attack
Attacking force 161770 troops, 633 guns, 122 vehicles, Assault Value = 3051
Defending force 74115 troops, 466 guns, 298 vehicles, Assault Value = 1703
Japanese max assault: 5846 - adjusted assault: 2296
Allied max defense: 1761 - adjusted defense: 7429
Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 1)
Japanese ground losses:
7908 casualties reported
Guns lost 137
Vehicles lost 16
Allied ground losses:
1048 casualties reported
Guns lost 55
Vehicles lost 4
This second example shows a base ready to be taken adjusted AV 22 to 15 close to 2 to 1 with deliberate. If I was in a rush I would probably shock or wait 1 day of rest to reduce disruption and fatigue then shock.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Nandi
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 554 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 20
Defending force 1980 troops, 8 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 1
Japanese max assault: 15 - adjusted assault: 22
Allied max defense: 0 - adjusted defense: 15
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 3)
Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 2
Japanese ground losses:
31 casualties reported
Once again no reason to watch the replay the adjusted assault and defense will tell you how you are doing.
Showa rules!
RE: art of ground combat
ORIGINAL: Barb
2 brigades equals 1 1/3 division. adding additional stuff could bring their forces up to equivalent of 2. Bring more combat infantry.
The numbers during bombardment round of attack should mean Guns available for fire. numbers during assault round are AVs i think.
If his forces are not regenarating (his AV is becoming lower and lower) he is being to worn down.
Deliberate: lower overal losses
Shock: higher overal losses (if you got "fat 1:1 ratio"* with deliberate attack you should launch a shock attack next turn if your troops are not serioustly affected)
*fat 1:1 is somethink like 900:500 adjusted AV.
You need four reinforced divisions to knock that force out.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
RE: art of ground combat
[/align]My Counter Attack will come soon AirGriff ^^ Thay will Suicide charge your newly captured Aru Island base with many many many Bajonett charges
(thay are out of ammo and have been for 2 months, so a charge with bajonetts are only alternative). [/align] [/align]When it comes to heavy weapons left on Aru Island, I only have 1x 75mm Gun and 2x 47mm Guns left... the rest is already dead, most have died due to the
18 875 000 lbs of bombs you have dropped on the base over the last 7 months. The Majorety of every unit at Aru was evacuated by Surface Groups, and now recently also by air, but i think the ones who actualy is left there now have put up a good fight. Commander Iswahiki Iosumo has now asked me for permission to surrender his 18 000 Troops to your 1st US Coprs Headquater, he have recived permission and you can expect him to contact your local commander tomorrow to sort out the details. [:)][/align] [/align] [/align] [/align][8D][/align] [/align] [/align] [/align][/align]
RE: art of ground combat
Yep, I just took the base. I threw every ship I had into naval bombardments, made around a half dozen heavy air attacks, including from my US death star. I noticed the ground attack air missions finally started hitting units other than the 7th mixed brigade, so I assume I finally broke that unit, which I think had been shielding the other nav guard units from air attacks, thus weakening almost all units with air attacks and allowing my ground units to break the line.
Japan, I will gladly accept the surrender of those troops. Otherwise, they will become one with the jungle. Now, I intend to hunt down those raiders you have off the US West Coast, you dog.
Learning a lot in this first of my major offensives. Good stuff. Thanks all for contributing.
Japan, I will gladly accept the surrender of those troops. Otherwise, they will become one with the jungle. Now, I intend to hunt down those raiders you have off the US West Coast, you dog.
Learning a lot in this first of my major offensives. Good stuff. Thanks all for contributing.
-
Chris21wen
- Posts: 7872
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2002 10:00 am
- Location: Cottesmore, Rutland
RE: art of ground combat
One thing about LCU combat that nobody has yet contradicted is that you will receive no replacements to any LCU that is a hex with an enemy LCU. I did a test sometime ago and posted the results but few seem to have picked up on this.
Further to get morale too increase your disruption must me zero. To get disruption to zero you must be in a none malaria base.
Further to get morale too increase your disruption must me zero. To get disruption to zero you must be in a none malaria base.
RE: art of ground combat
ORIGINAL: Chris H
One thing about LCU combat that nobody has yet contradicted is that you will receive no replacements to any LCU that is a hex with an enemy LCU. I did a test sometime ago and posted the results but few seem to have picked up on this.
Further to get morale too increase your disruption must me zero. To get disruption to zero you must be in a none malaria base.
Also, you can't be in an enemy-occupied hex.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
RE: art of ground combat
ORIGINAL: Chris H
One thing about LCU combat that nobody has yet contradicted is that you will receive no replacements to any LCU that is a hex with an enemy LCU. I did a test sometime ago and posted the results but few seem to have picked up on this.
You can get upgrades (which is sort of the same thing) in an enemy controlled hex... also, in my experience it seems you COULD get replacements in some circumstances, although i've never tried to run a test.