Just get it right.

[Gresbeck]

The idea is to release an early version of the game to those who want to run it through its paces and see if it has lingering bugs that the beta testers didn't come across.

Excellent idea. Consider the experience with Ageod WW1: an excellent game which couldn't be tested in all of the systems. Computers, configurations, softwares are so differentiated that is probably impossible to prevent all the possible bugs in all the possible systems. Your idea of a sort of "public beta under payment" would let your game be tested in many different systems, by people who would (reasonably) not complain about bugs.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: micheljq

What are the beta testers saying about the game, is it ready according to them? Are the beta testers able to play a full campaign of the MWiF yet? Are the beta testers still finding huge gaps in it or only minor bugs and minor adjustments they find? Is the AI tested yet? If this is released now, does it have the hot seat capibility at least? I guess internet/PBEM would be added later, but is there a possibility Matrix would mess up and say internet/PBEM will be added in a future expansion or in a MWiF2 (I would not like that personally).

Maybe those questions can help you with this decision (which is not an easy one I guess), only my 2 cents.

As for me, knowing the game would be released in april, I returned in the WoW world (quite a taking world, new guild, new faction, I am held for many months there).

But anxious to finally play this game and looking each day at the threads from the office.

[8|]

I won't permit this to happen unless the beta testers have stopped finding bugs. And that certainly isn't the case at the present. But a decision like this can not be made on the spur of the moment. For one thing, the game would have to have complete documentation printed, which requires a lead time for proofreading, editing, and the printer. So if we want to do this, we need to plan for it soon.

As someone commented in one of the above posts, it is the complexity of all the different interacting systems that raises this prospect. Is it even remotely possible to test all situations with 30 or 40 beta testers? I don't think so. [By the way, I expect to go to 40 beta testers somewhere around the beginning of the new year. I'll reactivate the thread requesting beta testers when that time comes.]

[micheljq]

The idea is quite interesting, I hope many committed player will purchase it even with caveats, and I think they will. I think It is important that you stay committed to support the product until it is stable and finished. Let's not say perfect, I guess at one point you will want to go on other projects & goals like all human beings. As for myself I decline for now. I am the only provider, new house, baby, milk, diapers I plan to invest $$ in MWiF with the spring's tax revenues return.

If you go with this early release, I will inform my wiffer friends in Quebec city. All of them already have the board WiF, they should be interested in the computer WiF also, at least some of them.

Thank you.

[Edfactor]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Well, since this thread keeps getting posts, I'll float an idea that has been getting kicked around and see what you-all think.

===

The idea is to release an early version of the game to those who want to run it through its paces and see if it has lingering bugs that the beta testers didn't come across. There would be no reduction in price[:(] and the game would have the caveat that "things might go wrong". Players who want to wait for a later version after several hundred have purchased the game and hammered away at it for several months, could cerainly do that. Players who are anxious to start playing MWIF and are willing to put up with potentially weekly/daily patches could jump right in.

Very little thought/discussion has gone into this idea so far and there are numerous details that concern me (as the developer) about doing this. But then, what do I know?

I would certainly buy a copy as soon as I could, the only downside is possible poor reviews/word of mouth which i would be worried about.

[Rodwell]

I would pay for an early version.

More "testers/volunteers" is a good thing.

[Ullern]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: micheljq

What are the beta testers saying about the game, is it ready according to them? Are the beta testers able to play a full campaign of the MWiF yet? Are the beta testers still finding huge gaps in it or only minor bugs and minor adjustments they find? Is the AI tested yet? If this is released now, does it have the hot seat capibility at least? I guess internet/PBEM would be added later, but is there a possibility Matrix would mess up and say internet/PBEM will be added in a future expansion or in a MWiF2 (I would not like that personally).

Maybe those questions can help you with this decision (which is not an easy one I guess), only my 2 cents.

As for me, knowing the game would be released in april, I returned in the WoW world (quite a taking world, new guild, new faction, I am held for many months there).

But anxious to finally play this game and looking each day at the threads from the office.

[8|]

I won't permit this to happen unless the beta testers have stopped finding bugs. And that certainly isn't the case at the present. But a decision like this can not be made on the spur of the moment. For one thing, the game would have to have complete documentation printed, which requires a lead time for proofreading, editing, and the printer. So if we want to do this, we need to plan for it soon.

As someone commented in one of the above posts, it is the complexity of all the different interacting systems that raises this prospect. Is it even remotely possible to test all situations with 30 or 40 beta testers? I don't think so. [By the way, I expect to go to 40 beta testers somewhere around the beginning of the new year. I'll reactivate the thread requesting beta testers when that time comes.]

This seems like a great idea.
But I don't really understand what exactly the criteria to release this game are. Cause in this quoted post you say that you won't release it unless the Beta testers have stopped finding new bugs. I thought that when the Beta testers have stopped finding new bugs the game is done, and then maybe some really rare bugs turned up later and that needed a patch, but thats it. So what was really the idea difference?

So I think it's a good idea to probe into this to figure out if an early release is possible, but I believe you must be more specific about what you plan not to include / finish in this first release.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: ullern

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: micheljq

What are the beta testers saying about the game, is it ready according to them? Are the beta testers able to play a full campaign of the MWiF yet? Are the beta testers still finding huge gaps in it or only minor bugs and minor adjustments they find? Is the AI tested yet? If this is released now, does it have the hot seat capibility at least? I guess internet/PBEM would be added later, but is there a possibility Matrix would mess up and say internet/PBEM will be added in a future expansion or in a MWiF2 (I would not like that personally).

Maybe those questions can help you with this decision (which is not an easy one I guess), only my 2 cents.

As for me, knowing the game would be released in april, I returned in the WoW world (quite a taking world, new guild, new faction, I am held for many months there).

But anxious to finally play this game and looking each day at the threads from the office.

[8|]

I won't permit this to happen unless the beta testers have stopped finding bugs. And that certainly isn't the case at the present. But a decision like this can not be made on the spur of the moment. For one thing, the game would have to have complete documentation printed, which requires a lead time for proofreading, editing, and the printer. So if we want to do this, we need to plan for it soon.

As someone commented in one of the above posts, it is the complexity of all the different interacting systems that raises this prospect. Is it even remotely possible to test all situations with 30 or 40 beta testers? I don't think so. [By the way, I expect to go to 40 beta testers somewhere around the beginning of the new year. I'll reactivate the thread requesting beta testers when that time comes.]

This seems like a great idea.
But I don't really understand what exactly the criteria to release this game are. Cause in this quoted post you say that you won't release it unless the Beta testers have stopped finding new bugs. I thought that when the Beta testers have stopped finding new bugs the game is done, and then maybe some really rare bugs turned up later and that needed a patch, but thats it. So what was really the idea difference?

So I think it's a good idea to probe into this to figure out if an early release is possible, but I believe you must be more specific about what you plan not to include / finish in this first release.

There is a long list of test plans and scripts (developed by Robert and Jimm) that need to be thoroughly run through after each program update. Despite the hundreds (over a thousand?) items they identified from their close reading of RAW/RAC, there are still numerous other fine details popping up from time to time. For instance, the various questions about how to program the rules (concerning sequence of execution mostly these days). Then there are the 5 modes of play, the 81 optional rules, and the 11 scenarios. Simply listing all the possible cases is mind-boggling. So, even if the beta testers aren't finding anything new, that doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of bugs waiting to pounce on the unsuspecting buyer. I personally find new bugs in each new version I upload for the beta testers that the beta testers never report. My paranoia is fed by all of the above.

The idea here is to increase the number of people pushing the game in different directions from dozens to hundreds.

[peskpesk]

Steve

To get more testers involved is a very, very good plan!
But personally I believe that selling the Beta of the game without the AI included faces the risk that people without testing experience quickly become tired. Since testing the game with only hot seat or just playing against yourself is a very cumbersome task. And hence the idea to increase the number of people pushing the game in different directions from dozens to hundreds will be come less effective. With AI included the testing will be come more fun and challenging, also the AI will be tested and needed improvements discovered.

Also there is a risk with letting the game out on the market, even when it’s a Beta, that the game will get a low quality stamp. Even tough that is not the case.

Peter

[Jagdtiger14]

Wow!  I cant believe the hypocrisy...well...maybe I can.  And to post this early release idea on the "Just get it right" thread???  Pretty funny!  Here comes another EiA.

[Stabilo]

If you sell the game now - I will buy it and love to install patches.

If you are looking for more testers, well this is a even better message! [:)]

[bredsjomagnus]

I think that this is an exciting idea. But I also think that there is a risk involved. Mayby it sets a low quality stamp, just as pesk pesk mentioned. Why not just involve more beta testers instead?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus

I think that this is an exciting idea. But I also think that there is a risk involved. Mayby it sets a low quality stamp, just as pesk pesk mentioned. Why not just involve more beta testers instead?

Having hundreds of beta testers, where only a small percentage find new bugs, is expensive, since (contributing) beta testers get a free copy of the final release.

Also, there is a heavy overhead for me to support beta testers, because of the frequent communications I have with each individual. Bringing new beta testers up to speed requires effort, and at times the end result is the beta tester doesn't contribute a whole lot. The better the beta tester is, the greater the level of communications. That is good for the final product[:)], but time consuming for me[:(]. And if you have been following this forum, you will know that my time is the scarcest resource.

[Sewerlobster]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Well, since this thread keeps getting posts, I'll float an idea that has been getting kicked around and see what you-all think.
===
The idea is to release an early version of the game to those who want to run it through its paces and see if it has lingering bugs that the beta testers didn't come across. There would be no reduction in price[:(] and the game would have the caveat that "things might go wrong". Players who want to wait for a later version after several hundred have purchased the game and hammered away at it for several months, could cerainly do that. Players who are anxious to start playing MWIF and are willing to put up with potentially weekly/daily patches could jump right in.
Very little thought/discussion has gone into this idea so far and there are numerous details that concern me (as the developer) about doing this. But then, what do I know?

The creators of Civ IV did something just like it. They enlisted a very large group of "gamma" testers. These were people who had played early incarnations of the game and were expert at it. It worked out well. Sadly I think you may have a shallower gene pool, so to speak -- but I like the idea. It should eliminate alot of the initial bugs just as it did for Civ IV -- no matter how hard you try, the beta testers are not a large enough group to catch all the quirks (and different computer set-ups) that a larger group can create. If it works, we won't have to hear the usual whining that every PC game gets because there was a bug.

[jjax]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Well, since this thread keeps getting posts, I'll float an idea that has been getting kicked around and see what you-all think.

===

The idea is to release an early version of the game to those who want to run it through its paces and see if it has lingering bugs that the beta testers didn't come across. There would be no reduction in price[:(] and the game would have the caveat that "things might go wrong". Players who want to wait for a later version after several hundred have purchased the game and hammered away at it for several months, could cerainly do that. Players who are anxious to start playing MWIF and are willing to put up with potentially weekly/daily patches could jump right in.

Very little thought/discussion has gone into this idea so far and there are numerous details that concern me (as the developer) about doing this. But then, what do I know?

I would buy into that idea!

[HansHafen]

Lets do what needs to be done. I would buy.

[Ohio Jones]

Am I tempted to say: "Damn the torpedoes - gimme gimme gimme!"? Absoutely! I want to see this game running on the Windows partition of my Mac ASAP (bet *there's* a scenario you haven't built into your testing plans!). But if it's been worth waiting this long, a little longer won't kill me, and - as some have expressed - I think there's a danger in rushing.

Steve, you (and select others of course, but mostly you) have worked so hard, and for so long, to make this game really exceptional, I think it would be a shame to lessen the game's impact by releasing a not-ready-for-primetime version. You risk a backlash. Even if clearly labelled as a beta, you ris having both the gaming media and - more importantly - potential players slagging the product for its beta limitations.

That said, I think some variation of what you have suggested here is inevitable. Given the complexity and sophistication of this game - which is, to my mind, far beyond that of your run-of-the-mill strategy game - there will doubtless be innumerable situations that you simply can't test for in a standard beta pool. It's extremely important to have Matrix's willingness to support refinements to the game on a go-forward basis as those issues are identified and resolved (heck, how many years of modifications and errata did we have to contend with regarding the paper rules, never mind coding them...). But I'd strongly recommend getting as far along the road to a finished product as reasonably possible before releasing, to give all your hard work the best possible chance of shining in the market.

My $0.02 (Canadian, so adjust as necessary for exchange rates).

[SamuraiProgrmmr]

Something Steve said made me wonder.
 
If I bought a prerelease copy, I would expect a downloadable game or just a disk.
 
I would want a copy at release time that had the last version of the disk and any goodies that will be in the retail game.
 
PDF manual(s) would be fine with me.
 
 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

Something Steve said made me wonder.

If I bought a prerelease copy, I would expect a downloadable game or just a disk.

I would want a copy at release time that had the last version of the disk and any goodies that will be in the retail game.

PDF manual(s) would be fine with me.

Yes, program updates, including the version of the final released product, would be available at no additional cost to everyone who bought the 'gamma' version.

You are probably correct that actual physical printing wouldn't necessary. But the documentation (player's manual) would need to be finished. There is no real reason for that to require additional 'testing' and I consider it a crucial element in judging whether the game 'works' or not.

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Steve

To get more testers involved is a very, very good plan!
But personally I believe that selling the Beta of the game without the AI included faces the risk that people without testing experience quickly become tired. Since testing the game with only hot seat or just playing against yourself is a very cumbersome task. And hence the idea to increase the number of people pushing the game in different directions from dozens to hundreds will be come less effective. With AI included the testing will be come more fun and challenging, also the AI will be tested and needed improvements discovered.

Also there is a risk with letting the game out on the market, even when it’s a Beta, that the game will get a low quality stamp. Even tough that is not the case.

Peter

I agree with peskpesk, there must be at least an AI to play against, if internet/PBEM is not ready. I won't play against myself that's for sure. This is not the purpose of buying a PC game.

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Well, since this thread keeps getting posts, I'll float an idea that has been getting kicked around and see what you-all think.

===

The idea is to release an early version of the game to those who want to run it through its paces and see if it has lingering bugs that the beta testers didn't come across. There would be no reduction in price[:(] and the game would have the caveat that "things might go wrong". Players who want to wait for a later version after several hundred have purchased the game and hammered away at it for several months, could cerainly do that. Players who are anxious to start playing MWIF and are willing to put up with potentially weekly/daily patches could jump right in.

Very little thought/discussion has gone into this idea so far and there are numerous details that concern me (as the developer) about doing this. But then, what do I know?

Terrible idea. It will ruin your credibility and the product's. I would not even have put this post on the public access forum.