Surface ships vs Carriers. Any chance at all?

[terje439]

Since my carriers are mostly submerged by now in my ongoing PBEM game, I need to find ways to halt my opponent, and there is were you guys come into play! [;)]

Will any surface fleet be able to "jump" a carrier force, or will they all be sunk on the way there? I was thinking about forming a fast surface fleet (minimum speed 30 knots) and order an attack at full speed. What chance would they stand?

And although I understand that a CA is inferior to a BB and a CL to a CA etc, how many CA would it take to take on a BB? And how many CLs on a CA?

Btw this is stock and I'm the allies.
Thanks!
Terje

[DuckofTindalos]

It can definitely be done, but you need plenty of luck.

[terje439]

ah yea, luck the one thing I am definitively out of [:D]
thx for the reply

[niceguy2005]

Very unlikely.  The game engine doesn't really allow for surprise of the CV themselves.  You can do battle with their escorts, but the chances that you will badly damage, much less sink a CV is unlikely.  Your best chance by far is LBA.

[String]

Actually it can be done but you need to overpower the escorts first.

Night Time Surface Combat at 34,71

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryujo, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CVL Zuiho, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Taiyo
DD Oyashio, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Hayashio, Shell hits 8, on fire
DD Amatsukaze, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Murasame, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Ikazuchi, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Matsukaze, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CL Danae, Shell hits 1
CL Dragon, Shell hits 1
CLAA Ceres
CLAA Columbo
DD Kortenaer
DD Piet Hein
DD Tenedos
DD Thracian
DD Express, Shell hits 1
DD Isis
DD Jupiter

From an old PBEM of mine

[Yamato hugger]

Actually if you catch them at night, you can hit the carriers without having to cut through the escorts, but as everyone else has said, you have to be damn lucky.

[Canoerebel]

I had a major Allied surface group including a fast BB tangle with a small Jap carrier force including several CVLs and a CV escorted only by DDs.  The Jap DDs went down but managed to engage the Allied TF sufficiently that the Jap carriers suffered only minor damage.  So a surface vs. carrier engagement can happen (as others have noted), but it takes luck (to end up in the same hex) and then more luck (to actually get by the escorts and damage or sink carriers).

[khyberbill]

Your best bet is to play a good defensive strategy and wait for your Essex class carriers to arrive.

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

Your best bet is to play a good defensive strategy and wait for your Essex class carriers to arrive.

Soon running out of places to run [:D]

But ok thanks for the replies guys!

But the other part of my Q;
how many CLs to sink a CA?
how many CAs to sink a BB?

I understand that there is no set rule or anything here, but since more or less anyone in this forum has played 1000s of turns more than me, I thought maybe you guys had experienced this?

Terje

[Canoerebel]

That depends on so many factors - quality of ship, experience of crew, ability of the captain, and seemingly a zillion other factors.  But I would hazard two good American CAs against a medioce Jap BB (Kongo, for instance) and feel like I had a decent chance of doing well.  I'd rather not send American CLs against a good Jap CA, but if I needed to I'd probably want four. 

[RUPD3658]

Watch out for the Brit CVs. This was after she took 3 torps from Kates:


Day Time Surface Combat at 4,82

Japanese Ships
DD Yudachi, Shell hits 7, on fire, heavy damage (Sunk)
DD Uranami, Shell hits 7, on fire, heavy damage (Sunk)
DD Kisaragi, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Asakaze, Shell hits 4

Allied Ships
CV Indomitable, Shell hits 12

[Hanzo]

It's possible. Done that a couple of times.

Night Time Surface Combat, near Wake Island at 85,72
 
 
Allied aircraft
no flights
 
 
F4U-1 Corsair: 24 destroyed
SOC-3 Seagull: 2 destroyed
F6F Hellcat: 10 destroyed
SB2C Helldiver: 4 destroyed
 
Japanese Ships
BB Hiei, Shell hits 1
BB Kirishima, Shell hits 17
BB Musashi, Shell hits 4
CA Takao, Shell hits 14
CA Myoko
CA Mogami
CL Oyodo
CL Agano
CL Noshiro, Shell hits 1
CL Isuzu
DD Shimakaze, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire
DD Takanami, Shell hits 2
DD Yudachi, Shell hits 4,  on fire
DD Usugumo, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Tsuga
DD Hasu
 
Allied Ships
CV Wasp
CVL Bataan, Shell hits 8,  on fire,  heavy damage
CVE Sangamon
CVE Suwannee
CVE Nassau, Shell hits 24, and is sunk
CVE Altamaha
CVE Copahee, Shell hits 1
CVE Breton
CVE Prince William
CVE Barnes, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
CVE Casablanca, Shell hits 2,  on fire
CVE Corregidor
CVE Anzio, Shell hits 4,  on fire
CVE Liscome Bay
CA Houston, Shell hits 72, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CLAA Reno, Shell hits 12,  on fire
DD Ammen
DD Caperton, Shell hits 15,  on fire,  heavy damage
DD Converse
DD Cotten
DD Hale, Shell hits 27, and is sunk
DD O'Bannon, Shell hits 34,  on fire,  heavy damage
DD Patterson, Shell hits 3,  on fire
DD Balch

PBEM game, CHS mod. USA taskforce was surprised. It's a pity, Wasp wasn't hit at all in this engament. Next day was another one - Wasp was hit a couple of times with 5 inch guns. Just a scratch.

[Ken Estes]

IMO surface engagements depend upon the speeds of the opposing TF. The IJN CV groups , unless having a Junyo class, tend to have 30+ knot speed, hence difficult to intercept. I have had a PT boat engagement - laughable - but also have had good success intercepting damaged CVs  with CA/DD groups even a BB TK...wish I had the sense to take the screenshot of 3 USN BBs -- old ones in mid-42 --engaging damaged KB CVs to show, but it does happen.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That depends on so many factors - quality of ship, experience of crew, ability of the captain, and seemingly a zillion other factors.  But I would hazard two good American CAs against a medioce Jap BB (Kongo, for instance) and feel like I had a decent chance of doing well.  I'd rather not send American CLs against a good Jap CA, but if I needed to I'd probably want four. 

Two CAs were about the equal of a BB ignoring armour. A CL was the equal of a CA, except that 6" guns were better for killing DDs than cruisers.

[terje439]

again you came to the rescue, thanks.
Ofc things changed all of a sudden as my T.IVAs suddenly started hitting things [:D]

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It can definitely be done, but you need plenty of luck.

Agreed, you do need a ton of luck. I've never done it in a PBEM, but did manage it against the AI once. Spectacular results...18" shells do nasty, nasty things to the Yorktown.

Also note that the AI managed to get Boise into the middle of a CVL group of mine as well. I got lucky there in that my CAs and DDs managed to land multiple Type 93 hits before it opened up on Ryujo.

[bradfordkay]

"Also note that the AI managed to get Boise into the middle of a CVL group of mine as well. I got lucky there in that my CAs and DDs managed to land multiple Type 93 hits before it opened up on Ryujo."

In normal WW2 naval forums the name Bismark induces feelings of dread and arguments over naval superiority. In the WITP forum, the name is BOISE.  [;)]

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"Also note that the AI managed to get Boise into the middle of a CVL group of mine as well. I got lucky there in that my CAs and DDs managed to land multiple Type 93 hits before it opened up on Ryujo."

In normal WW2 naval forums the name Bismark induces feelings of dread and arguments over naval superiority. In the WITP forum, the name is BOISE.  [;)]

To the point that we've come up with a new phrase: 'I got Boise'ed' to explain to others on the board when things go completely against you. [:D]

[Feinder]

One thing that worked for me in a PBEM was that I made a very good guess on the location of KB in PBEM game a while back.  I sent in a small-ish SC TF centered around 2x CLs and about 6x DDs.  My own CVs were also poised for action.  The night phase before the battle, my light SC TF engaged KB.  The damage to both sides was minimal, but I did score some deck hits on Kaga (seemed minor damage tho).  However, the next morning, when everybodies strikes started flying, the SC TF in the same hex as KB was I guess considered an "imminent threat" and drew of 2-3 strikes, that would otherwise have gone vs. my own CVs.  Also, it seemed that KB had burned some ops points (thus fewer sorties) in the battle vs. my SC TF (hard to confirm, given the volume of the battle).  Either way, that SC TF did make a difference, even tho it didn't sink anything outright (and I think 1x CL and 3x DDs lived to tell the tale).  My CVs ended up dominating what was a fairly evenly matched battle.  After the strikes were thru, I sent out SC TFs to kill the cripples so they wouldn't contriue to draw of my strikes vs. fleeing enemy CVs.  I've got a screen-shot somewhere of the HMS Repulse blowing the crap out of (a crippled) Akagi.  Yes, she was a goner anyway.  But in killing her that night, my strikes were free to fly vs. other targets the next morning (and on the kill screen, it shows Akagi sunk by 15" guns, so Repulse got the kill, good for her!).

-F-

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That depends on so many factors - quality of ship, experience of crew, ability of the captain, and seemingly a zillion other factors.  But I would hazard two good American CAs against a medioce Jap BB (Kongo, for instance) and feel like I had a decent chance of doing well.  I'd rather not send American CLs against a good Jap CA, but if I needed to I'd probably want four. 

Two CAs were about the equal of a BB ignoring armour. A CL was the equal of a CA, except that 6" guns were better for killing DDs than cruisers.

Not sure if we're talking real life or the game here. However, I did a lot of test engagements pitting Baltimore class CLs against various IJN CAs. The CLs kicked their butts about every time. The trick is to have an aggressive captain. The 6" guns have to get in close to have much chance at penetration. If they do their high rate of fire will pummel any CA/CL.

I did a similiar test with the Omaha class and they did considerably worse. I think radar is also important.