AE Land and AI Issues [OUTDATED]

[Dili]

okay

[Andy Mac]

OK guys this is where I ask you lot for help !!!
 
Does anyone have detailed data on the CD guns based at Ambon for the Dutch my sources conflict - I have 4th Cst Gun Bn with 4 x 120mm CD's (2 disabled) and 8 x 75mm Field Guns (I think they are ex French 75's) there are a lot of other troops Inf AA AT etc but I want more data on CD Guns - anything would be helpfull ? (I have the wikipedia data and a few other sources anything on top would be good !!)
 
 

[2ndACR]

http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/ambon.html

any help here? Lists complete order of battle for Ambon area.

Then there is:

http://niehorster.orbat.com/016_netherl ... uccas.html

[Andy Mac]

Yup thats one of the sources I used its the

"Coastal Artillery Detachment (4 Ku. and Ld. Artillery)"

and

"at Bennet was a battery of guns operated by Dutch permanent artillerymen and was emplaced in concrete "

Thats causing me worry - I interpreted that as 4 x 120mm CD Guns as I have another source that fragmentary as well but it could have been 4 x 75mm CD guns or something totally unrelated

And as you point out Nier calls them 150mm's

I have a source saying 75mm, your first website thats unclear and Nier that says 150mm's !!!

I have no idea if they were operational or had ammo I know there were 4 x CD guns there but not sure how good !!!

[2ndACR]

I would assume that they had ammo if they were operational. The 150's report on Nier as operational and in turrets.
 
The 180's are under construction, so I would assume no ammo. Nier makes reports on other bases if the guns are non-operational. He has down that 1 gun on another base was in Java under repair. He does account for spare guns but no crews for some 5 75mm guns. That would be your call as to wether they get included too.
 
I have seen on one website that 24 Hurrican IIb's were diverted and used in Java when Singapore fell.

[Reg]

The Australian Official History: Army - Vol IV, CHAPTER 19, THE LOSS OF AMBON

Just contains the following snippets. They don't actually quote the gun types.

p422
The principal fortifications were at Paso, on the Paso Isthmus, to deny entry from the north and east to the Laitimor Peninsula, inclusive of the town of Ambon. At Benteng, adjacent to the town, was a battery manned by Dutch permanent artillerymen . It was emplaced in concrete, with its accommodation and telephone system underground, and commanded the Bay of Ambon and the Laha airfield.

...(there was no mobile artillery on the island)...

p426

Also at Laha were about 300 troops of the Dutch force, with two Bofors anti-aircraft guns.....
In these raids the two Bofors guns manned by the Dutch—the only anti-aircraft guns on the island — achieved disappointing results.

Hope this is of some help...

[Dutch_slith]

Hi Andy,

this is the complete order of battle for Ambon (the KNIL of course):

Territorial Command Molukken (LTC J.L.R. Kapitz)

Molukken Garrisonbatallion (MAJ H.H.L. Tieland)
1st Coy (a javaneze Kort Verband unit), CPT H.A. de Jongh Swemer
2nd Coy (mixed native), CPT E.P. Bouman
3rd Coy (amboneze) CPT A.G.M. Schouten
4th Coy (mixed native) CPT J. Kaseger
5th Coy (european militia) CPT W.A. Blaauboer
MG Coy 1LT F.E.A.H. de Jong, 5 sections of two Vickers MMGs each, 3 sections of four 80mm mortars each, two 20mm AT Rifles, four 7.7mm AA guns, four Overvalwagen each armed with one Vickers MMG
Boela Detachment with four squads (each 15 men), since januari 29, 1942 at Ambon.

Reservekorps CPT L.G.H. Uckerman
two weak companies (= 18 squads, no automatic weapons)

Depotbatallion (native militia) CPT H.M.J. Hesterman
about 300 men (organized in two companies)
untrained but did some fighting before disintegrating

Stadswacht/Landwacht Detachment 1LT J. Creutz-Lechleitner
one coy of Stadswacht, 200 men Landwacht; didn't do any fighting, no military value at all

4th Coy Kust- en Luchtdoelartillerie CPT D. Buur
Nona-battery 4x 15cm Lang 40 1LT T.L.D. Graaf -> CD NONE disabled
two mobile batteries, each with 4x 7,5cm Lang 30 (1912) 1LT P. Jager Gerlings -> FG (one at Laterie, the other at Halong)
two 7,5cm Lang 55 (coastal artillery) (one at the kolensteiger west of Ambon/one at Halong) -> CD
mobile battery of 4x 7cm Lang 14 Veerspoor, manned by RK, obsolete guns, used at Paso -> FG
two 3,7cm coastal artillery (Galala) -> CD
two sections of two 40mm AA each (Halong/Laha)
three sections of three 12.7mm AAMGs each (Laha/Halong/Nona)

Engineer Detachment CPT W.J.F. van Dun
operating searchlights

Sources:
C. van den Hoogenband / L. Schotborgh Nederlands-Indie contra Japan deel VI 1959 (section military history, HQ General Staff)
J.J. Nortier De Japanse aanval op Nederlands-Indie deel I 1988

These are the sources Niehorster used. There are no other dutch sources available. Attached is 'my' TO/E. The 37mm CD and 70mm FG, the Stadswacht and the Landwacht are left out, they were worthless.

Harald

[Andy Mac]

Interesting I have slightly different mix of forces between the three units we have present but not materially different
 
KNIL Rifle Squads - 27 (36 possible if TOE fills out) - (Platoon and Coy HQ squads are ignored for comparative TOE work - 20mm AT Rifles and 6.5mm LMG Sections are incorporated in unit firepower of regular squads and so are ignored)
KNIL Militia Squads - 54 (54 max - its two companies of 9 Squads attached to each unit)
KNIL Cmbt Engineers - 3 Squads in the KNIL Bn
12.7mm AAMG's - I also had 9
I had 4 x Improvised AFV's (Hvy) rather than Ovelwagons
75mm Field Guns x 8
120mm CD Guns x 4
80mm AA x 4
40mm Bofors x 4
20mm Oerlikon x 1
37mm AT Guns x 4
 
The only real material difference is the CD Guns and possibly the 80mm mortars which I have only 3 present at outbreak of war as 9 is a regts allocation ?

[Andy Mac]

For info the standard TOE I have for a Dutch KNIL Garrison Bn (although not a single Bn is at TOE as they all have add ons of Militia or additional devices or are overstrength !!!)
 
But the TOE for a Dutch Bn is
 
36 x KNIL Rifle Squads
3 x 37mm AT Guns
3 x 80mm Mortars
3 x 12.7mm AA MG's
39 x Support
 
As I said almost none are at standard TOE most have add ons of a battery of guns or a couple of milita or regular companies or a few more tubes or some additional AA Guns - it varies a lot

[Don Bowen]

Interesting data. Please post more from this source.

[Andy Mac]

Who me ? [:D]
 
I assume you mean Harald

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Interesting I have slightly different mix of forces between the three units we have present but not materially different

KNIL Rifle Squads - 27 (36 possible if TOE fills out) - (Platoon and Coy HQ squads are ignored for comparative TOE work - 20mm AT Rifles and 6.5mm LMG Sections are incorporated in unit firepower of regular squads and so are ignored)
KNIL Militia Squads - 54 (54 max - its two companies of 9 Squads attached to each unit)
KNIL Cmbt Engineers - 3 Squads in the KNIL Bn
12.7mm AAMG's - I also had 9
I had 4 x Improvised AFV's (Hvy) rather than Ovelwagons
75mm Field Guns x 8
120mm CD Guns x 4
80mm AA x 4
40mm Bofors x 4
20mm Oerlikon x 1
37mm AT Guns x 4

The only real material difference is the CD Guns and possibly the 80mm mortars which I have only 3 present at outbreak of war as 9 is a regts allocation ?

3 regular companies (27), reinforced by european militia (conscripts 18 - 32 yrs old, armed like regulars, high morale) plus the 4 squads from Boela makes 40 Squads. European militia sometimes formed own companies which were attached to other units or were simply integrated into the regular batallions on Java
one coy short-term volunteers (KV) plus 2 coys native militia (KV/native militia were armed with rifles only, no automatic weapons at all) makes 27 KV Squads (18 disabled for lack of training).
BTW the 6.5mm MG section are two Vickers MMGs, 6.5mm not .303. The regular rifle squads had 1 Schmeisser, 13 rifles and 1 Madsen LMG. RK squad had 15 rifles.

There were no combat engineers at Ambon! And no AT guns (except the ATRs), no 80mm/20mm AA guns either. The 40mm/12.7mm AA were detachments from the 3 AA batallions on Java.

A typical KNIL MG company had 3 pelotons with 4 Vickers MMGs each, 1 mortar platoon with 6-80mm mortars. 2-3 20mm ATR. This is a TO/E for an veldbataljon MG-coy on Java. Outside of Java/Madoera no typical TO/E exists....
A KNIL Regiment had three battalions of infantry, each battalion had three inf conpanies and one MG company, so each Regiment had 18-80mm Mortars, 36 MMGs and 6 to 9 ATRs. Attached to each Regt was an AT/AA Detachment. This unit had 6-47mm AT guns and 9-12.7mm AAMGs.

KNIL Regt TO/E:
90 Rifle Squads (9 companies from the inf battalions plus one motorized coy)
18 80mm mortars
36 Vickers MMG
9 20mm ATR
6 47mm ATG
9 12.7mm AAMG

Harald

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

For info the standard TOE I have for a Dutch KNIL Garrison Bn (although not a single Bn is at TOE as they all have add ons of Militia or additional devices or are overstrength !!!)

But the TOE for a Dutch Bn is

36 x KNIL Rifle Squads
3 x 37mm AT Guns
3 x 80mm Mortars
3 x 12.7mm AA MG's
39 x Support

As I said almost none are at standard TOE most have add ons of a battery of guns or a couple of milita or regular companies or a few more tubes or some additional AA Guns - it varies a lot

Well, as already mentioned, a typical garrison TO/E doesn't exit. But no way them having any AT guns. Mortars and MMGs sometimes were attached/ sometimes not. 12.7mm AA Guns were only attached to the veldbataljons on Java. AA Guns outside Java were detachments from the AA bns on Java. Only at important installations, and only 40mm Bofors/20mm Rheinmetall/12.7mm Browning.
The name Garnizoensbataljon translates into garrison bn. But this was a name, not typically a military formation of bn-size. Those units were broken down in small detachments consisting of several brigades (KNIL name for squad). These brigades were 15 to 20 men strong. Since most of your units are overstrengthed and there were actually no men available to reinforce the smaller formations, I would propose to simply drop the garrison TO/Es.

Harald

[Dutch_slith]

Troepencommando Menado MAJ B.F.A. Schilmoller

- Coy Menado (menadoneze) CPT W.F.J. Kroon
- Mobile column with 3 Rifle Squads, 3 Overvalwagen SGTMAJ A.J. ter Voert

- Reservekorps CPT W.C. van den Berg
A Coy (8 squads) 1LT A.O. Radema
B Coy (8 squads) 1LT W.G. van de Laar
C Coy (8 squads) 1LT H. Fucher
D Coy (8 squads) 1LT J.G. Wielinga
E-Detachment (3 squads) native SGT Malizier

- Kort Verband Coy CPT J.D.W.T. Abbink

- European Militia/Landstorm Coy (200 men) 1LT F. Masselink
only 35 men were trained

-Menado (native) Militia Coy CPT J.H.A.L.C. de Swert
400 men, untrained, didn't fight

- Stadswacht (100 men) 1LT M.A. Nolthenius de Man
armed with hunting rifles, untrained, of no military value

- MG Detachment
2-3 sections 6.5mm Vickers MMG

- 2x 7,5cm Lang 35 (1902) used as coastal artillery

- 3x 3,7cm naval gun (mounted on trucks)
Range was about 1.000m

[Dutch_slith]

Garnizoen Kendari CPT A.G.T. Anthonio; since Dec 14, 1941 CPT F.B. van Straalen

- 20 Rifle Squads, 6-6.5mm Vickers MMG, 6-80mm mortars, 4 Overvalwagen
- 2-40mm Bofors AA, 3-12.7mm AAMG

[Andy Mac]

OK wow my Menado Bn is waaay off I have it a lot stronger than that.... good stuff thanks for the data not reading dutch is a major issue when doing dutch TOE's
 
Andy

[Andy Mac]

Ah k perhaps not its just that you have 4 squad types where I am using 2 for the Dutch

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Ah k perhaps not its just that you have 4 squad types where I am using 2 for the Dutch

more than four actually...

1941:
MARNS Rifle Squad (marines) 12men, 1 Thompson, 1 Lewis LMG, 10 Rifles
MBA Rifle Squad (naval militia) 12 men, 1 Thompson, 11 Rifles
KNIL Rifle Squad (regular, european militia) 15 men, 1 Schmeisser, 1 Madsen LMG, 13 Rifles
KNIL Landstorm Squad (militia >32 years) 15 men, 15 Rifles
KNIL Sapper Squad (regular) no data, but I guess same size as KNIL regular
KNIL Cavalry Squad (regular) 15 men, 1 Schmeisser, 2 Madsen LMG, 12 Rifles
KNIL KV Rifle Squad (Kort Verband/Korps) 15 men, 15 Rifles (upgrades to KNIL regular)
KNIL RK Rifle Squad (veterans, average 50 years) 15 men, 15 Rifles
Korps Marechaussee (regular, former elite infantry, anti-guerilla) 15 men, 1 Schmeisser/Thompson/Madsen LMG, 14 Rifles

1944:
MARNS Rifle Squad (like USMC Rifle Squad)
KNIL Rifle Squad (like AUS Infantry Squad)
KNIL Sapper Squad (like AUS Combat Engineer Squad)

1945/1946:
KL Rifle Squad (like British Rifle Squad)

[Andy Mac]

Ya thats to many for me I have similar in 45 but the 41 I am sticking to KNIL Inf Sqd, KNIL Militia Squad, KNIL Cbt Egr and KNIL Vickers Sqaud and a Cav Sqd

[JeffroK]

Re Ambon.
 
If you go to the Aust War Memorial Diaries site (Reg posted the link)
 
2/21st Bn for Nov Dec 1941, on page 112ish it has a OOB for the Dutch & Australian forces at Ambon & Laha
 
Written at the time, these are often more accurate than theoretical OOB garnered from HQ sources.