AE Land and AI Issues [OUTDATED]

[Andy Mac]

Yup I have printed out most of the Aus War Memorial stuff from when I did the Aus OOB its good its just a question of choosing which source to believe for this stuff

[jwilkerson]

Harald, we are having an "internal" debate regarding the existence/location of the "150mm CD" guns aboard Amboina. Most of our sources tie back to the Australian official history, a few seem to tie back to Hoogenband/Schotborgh (which by the way is available at http://www.antiqbook.nl/boox/boekv/000387.shtml wish I had a spare $57USD!!
So the question is, where were these guns located exactly?

The Australians http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/histories/20/chapters/19.pdf describe a permanant coastal gun position at "Paso" (see the map contained in the chaper in the link). However, there is zero mention of any 150MM guns. But I have to think this position is the most likely candidate for the position of any heavy coastal guns.

Your text above contains the character string "Nona-Battery" however the "Nona position" described in the Australian source was near a mountain over 1 mile from the Ocean, not a likely candidate for the position of heavy coastal guns!

Niehorster's site http://niehorster.orbat.com/016_netherlands/41-12-08/tc_moluccas.html contains mention of a battery of 150/L40 guns in the Molukken garrison with the associated character string "Goenoeng Nona" there are apparently, at least dozens of locations in Indonesia containing the character string "Goenoeng" but I can find no reverence to such on Amboina.

Without any information as to the location of these guns we struggle as to whether to include them or not (just one of many details we try to nail down). So I would like to ask you if in Hoogenband/Schotborgh there are any further hints regarding the exact location of these 4x150MMCD guns?

Thanks,

Joe

p.s. I'm trying to post the map in the Aussie source, but struggling with the size, I'll need to switch computers to be able to manipulate it down. Will post it in a sec.

[JeffroK]

In other areas, I have found the Bn or Bde Diaries, written on the spot to be more accurate than the Division/Corps Diaries. In one case the Amy Diaries had a Bn moving 7 Days before the Bn Diaries showed the relocation, I suppose it took longer to pack up than HQ knew or movement of the Advanced echelon was taken as the effective date.
 
Makes doing this stuff fun doesnt it!!!

[jwilkerson]

Ok, here is the map from the above cited Aussie source. Note the proximity of part of the Japanese landings to the Paso position, yet no mention of the 150MM guns or any firing of same. Curious if Hoogenband/Schotborgh can shed any further light on the exact location of these guns.

Thanks!

Joe

[jwilkerson]

Continuing to read the Aussia history, it looks like a position at "Benteng" (southwest of Ambon town) is another candidate for the coastal artillery position. Still curious if Hoogenband/Schotborgh can confirm.

[Reg]

My reading of the Aust Official history was that the CD battery was located at Bentang to cover the approaches to Binnen Bay and Laha airfield. The fortifications at Paso were for defence against ground assaults from the north and were outflanked by the Japanese landing behind them.

[JeffroK]

The 2/21 Bn Diaries show 4 x 6" Naval Guns-Fixed at Toehameten

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Re Ambon.

If you go to the Aust War Memorial Diaries site (Reg posted the link)

2/21st Bn for Nov Dec 1941, on page 112ish it has a OOB for the Dutch & Australian forces at Ambon & Laha

Written at the time, these are often more accurate than theoretical OOB garnered from HQ sources.

Actually there almost no "HQ sources" regarding the KNIL forces. Most of them have been burned at the end of the Java campaign. Most KNIL information - and that is the reason why it is so difficult to gather any information at all - is made up of interviews and after action reports, written after VJ-day (or during the war in Australia). Hoogenband/Schotborgh wrote down an "official history" in the 50s using these sources. Nortier had examined these again and published the verified data in his standard work on the DEI campaign. Of course they give TO/Es on Sparrow and Gull Force too, but only from a dutch view. And I think the australian sources just give an australian one of the KNIL.

[JeffroK]

Gun locations on 27/12/41 were:
 
2 x 40mm Bofors      Laha
2 x 40mm Bofors      Halong
4 Stokes mortars      Hitoelama
8 Stokes Mortars      Victoria
4 x 75mm Field Guns-Mobile     Halong
4 x 75mm Field Guns-Mobile     Paso
4 x 7cm Field Guns-Mobile     Benteng (Arty Barracks)
2 x 3.7cm Guns-Mobile       Boom (Halong)
1 x 75mm Naval Guns-Fixed    Halong
1 x 75mm Naval Gun - Fixed    Coal Wharf
4 x 6" Naval Guns-Fixed      Toehameten

[JeffroK]

The difference with the Diaries are that they were written on the spot. And while they still include error and misaprehensions are often a better source than those written 10+ years later

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Ok, here is the map from the above cited Aussie source. Note the proximity of part of the Japanese landings to the Paso position, yet no mention of the 150MM guns or any firing of same. Curious if Hoogenband/Schotborgh can shed any further light on the exact location of these guns.

Thanks!

Joe

OK, I'll position all artillery using a KNIL map of Laitimor.

4 guns 150mm Lang 40 at the foothills of Goenoeng Nona. Range of this battery was 13km. Target area was the outer bay (in your map: Bay of Ambon). Goenoeng is dutch for gunung which is the malay word for mountain.

1 gun 75mm L 55 at the kolensteiger (west of Ambon). Kolensteiger is a part of Ambon roads (coal burning ships get their coal there). This gun targeted the Bay of Ambon, too.

1 gun 75mm L 55 at NAS Halong, this is on the Binnen-Bay.

2 guns 37mm at Galala protecting a barrage made up from bars.

The two mobile batteries of each four 75mm Lang 30 protected Paso from positions at Halong and Lateri. The battery at Halong could fire into the Binnen-Bay too.

the four 70mm Lang 14 Veerspoor (totaly obsolete guns) were used in the Paso-emplacement. Range was about 2000m, they could deliver only frontal/direct fire.

-----

Hoogenband/Schotburgh marked them on their map, Nortier described the positions in detail.

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Gun locations on 27/12/41 were:

2 x 40mm Bofors      Laha VERIFIED
2 x 40mm Bofors      Halong VERIFIED
4 Stokes mortars      Hitoelama
8 Stokes Mortars      Victoria
4 x 75mm Field Guns-Mobile     Halong VERIFIED
4 x 75mm Field Guns-Mobile     Paso LATERI VERIFIED
4 x 7cm Field Guns-Mobile     Benteng (Arty Barracks) PASO
2 x 3.7cm Guns-Mobile       Boom (Halong) GALALA
1 x 75mm Naval Guns-Fixed    Halong VERIFIED
1 x 75mm Naval Gun - Fixed    Coal Wharf VERIFIED
4 x 6" Naval Guns-Fixed      Toehameten NEVER MENTIONED

Regarding the 6" guns. It was planned to create a large naval base at Ambon. So 6" guns are possible but in januari 1942 there were no 6" guns, at least no KNIL ones....

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Harald, we are having an "internal" debate regarding the existence/location of the "150mm CD" guns aboard Amboina. Most of our sources tie back to the Australian official history, a few seem to tie back to Hoogenband/Schotborgh (which by the way is available at http://www.antiqbook.nl/boox/boekv/000387.shtml wish I had a spare $57USD!!
So the question is, where were these guns located exactly?

It isn't available any more, I purchased it![:)]

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Continuing to read the Aussia history, it looks like a position at "Benteng" (southwest of Ambon town) is another candidate for the coastal artillery position. Still curious if Hoogenband/Schotborgh can confirm.

NOT CONFIRMED

[Dutch_slith]

tomorrow I'll post Makassar Garrison, Manokwari Garrison, Timor Garrison (with all its small detachments on the various islands) and last but not least the Dilly-expeditie (Dili Expeditionary Force)....

[JeffroK]

Harald, I think the Aussie 6" guns are the Dutch 150mm, we hadnt turned metric at that point.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Reg

My reading of the Aust Official history was that the CD battery was located at Bentang to cover the approaches to Binnen Bay and Laha airfield. The fortifications at Paso were for defence against ground assaults from the north and were outflanked by the Japanese landing behind them.

After re-reading 4 times (so far) I agree. Also the description says that the Japanese ships came in closer AFTER this "important" position (Bentang) was eliminated. So is "Bentang" the same as "Nona", "Goenoeng", "Toehameten"??? In a phrase often repeated by one of my more hiralious co-workers, "Could Be" !!!

Well after Harald settles down with the full tome and digests, hopefully he can shed more light on the questions!

But apparently these guns could not fire to the East, hence the Japanese came in from that way outflanking the coastal guns.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Harald, we are having an "internal" debate regarding the existence/location of the "150mm CD" guns aboard Amboina. Most of our sources tie back to the Australian official history, a few seem to tie back to Hoogenband/Schotborgh (which by the way is available at http://www.antiqbook.nl/boox/boekv/000387.shtml wish I had a spare $57USD!!
So the question is, where were these guns located exactly?

It isn't available any more, I purchased it![:)]

Well at least it's "in the family" now!
[:D]

[Reg]

Never fear, there's another copy available in the UK.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=426572686&searchurl=tn%3Dnederlands%2Bindie%2Bcontra%2Bjapan%26x%3D54%26y%3D9

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Reg

My reading of the Aust Official history was that the CD battery was located at Bentang to cover the approaches to Binnen Bay and Laha airfield. The fortifications at Paso were for defence against ground assaults from the north and were outflanked by the Japanese landing behind them.

After re-reading 4 times (so far) I agree. Also the description says that the Japanese ships came in closer AFTER this "important" position (Bentang) was eliminated. So is "Bentang" the same as "Nona", "Goenoeng", "Toehameten"??? In a phrase often repeated by one of my more hiralious co-workers, "Could Be" !!!

Well after Harald settles down with the full tome and digests, hopefully he can shed more light on the questions!

But apparently these guns could not fire to the East, hence the Japanese came in from that way outflanking the coastal guns.

I have re-read the Ambon-chapter. Benteng/Bentang is nowhere mentioned. It isn't on the map, either. I guess Bentang is 'Goenoeng Nona'. Around the battery there was a bunker-system carved into the hills, lots of trenches and such. Two artillery positions are marked on the KNIL Map, the first exactly west from Ambon (this must be the 75mm L 55 at the kolensteiger) and the second more inland to the south of the first, this must be the Nona battery. This position is between Amahoesoe and Koedamati, both are on your map.