Naval Combat Aborts
Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
RE: Naval Combat Aborts
From JGN
11.4.6 Interception
Interception is a way of bringing enemy naval units to combat before they end their move. You can try to intercept a task force of enemy naval units as soon as it enters a sea area containing at least one of your faceup naval or aircraft units.
You can’t try to intercept:
A SUB task force; or
Aircraft units flying into or through the sea area; or
Units moving from one section into a lower-numbered section of the same sea-box; or
A task force only containing naval units you are not at war with.
11.5 Naval combat
11.5.1 Combat sequence
Combat sequence
The combat sequence has these steps:
1. Both sides (active side first) fly aircraft to the area (naval air interception).
2. Both sides (active side first) commit SUBs
3. Search for the enemy. If neither side finds the other, the combat is over.
4. Determine type of combat (air, surface or submarine).
5. Resolve combat.
6. Both sides can abort the combat (active side first).
7. If both sides remain, start again from step 1. If not, the combat is over.
if the combat ends, go on to the next sea area.
11.6 Opponent’s naval combat
After your side has resolved combat in all their selected sea areas, any major power on the other side can try to initiate combat (see 11.5.2) in any other sea areas your side moved a non-SUB unit into or within (but not through) in your naval air missions step or your naval movement step. Your opponents can’t pick an area that has already been selected this impulse.
Your opponent simply points to areas, one by one, and, in each of them, turns a unit face-down and follows the sequence in 11.5.1. If a unit your opponent turned face-down during the naval movement step in an interception attempt (see 11.4.6) is still in the sea area, he or she can attempt to start a naval combat there without turning another unit over.
Example: Jeremy has finished all the naval combats he wanted to start. He didn’t try to start a combat in the Eastern Mediterranean where Maria’s Italian fleet is at an advantage against an escorted TRS Jeremy moved there during his naval movement step. Maria turns the VittorioVeneto face-down in an attempt to exploit her advantage. Triumphantly, she rolls a 1 and starts the combat. Despondently, Jeremy reaches for another lager.
In JGN's opinion:
Theoretically, you may attempt to intercept your opponents taskforce in each sea area to which it moves BUT combat can only occur once per impulse per sea area.
Therefore: you would be unable to intercept naval units moving through a sea area in which combat had already occurred.
Your units would be busy "evolved in combat" or "searching for" other units. The naval term for this is "screening" or "screening force(s)".
11.4.6 Interception
Interception is a way of bringing enemy naval units to combat before they end their move. You can try to intercept a task force of enemy naval units as soon as it enters a sea area containing at least one of your faceup naval or aircraft units.
You can’t try to intercept:
A SUB task force; or
Aircraft units flying into or through the sea area; or
Units moving from one section into a lower-numbered section of the same sea-box; or
A task force only containing naval units you are not at war with.
11.5 Naval combat
11.5.1 Combat sequence
Combat sequence
The combat sequence has these steps:
1. Both sides (active side first) fly aircraft to the area (naval air interception).
2. Both sides (active side first) commit SUBs
3. Search for the enemy. If neither side finds the other, the combat is over.
4. Determine type of combat (air, surface or submarine).
5. Resolve combat.
6. Both sides can abort the combat (active side first).
7. If both sides remain, start again from step 1. If not, the combat is over.
if the combat ends, go on to the next sea area.
11.6 Opponent’s naval combat
After your side has resolved combat in all their selected sea areas, any major power on the other side can try to initiate combat (see 11.5.2) in any other sea areas your side moved a non-SUB unit into or within (but not through) in your naval air missions step or your naval movement step. Your opponents can’t pick an area that has already been selected this impulse.
Your opponent simply points to areas, one by one, and, in each of them, turns a unit face-down and follows the sequence in 11.5.1. If a unit your opponent turned face-down during the naval movement step in an interception attempt (see 11.4.6) is still in the sea area, he or she can attempt to start a naval combat there without turning another unit over.
Example: Jeremy has finished all the naval combats he wanted to start. He didn’t try to start a combat in the Eastern Mediterranean where Maria’s Italian fleet is at an advantage against an escorted TRS Jeremy moved there during his naval movement step. Maria turns the VittorioVeneto face-down in an attempt to exploit her advantage. Triumphantly, she rolls a 1 and starts the combat. Despondently, Jeremy reaches for another lager.
In JGN's opinion:
Theoretically, you may attempt to intercept your opponents taskforce in each sea area to which it moves BUT combat can only occur once per impulse per sea area.
Therefore: you would be unable to intercept naval units moving through a sea area in which combat had already occurred.
Your units would be busy "evolved in combat" or "searching for" other units. The naval term for this is "screening" or "screening force(s)".
"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen
("She is to be torpedoed!")
("She is to be torpedoed!")
RE: Naval Combat Aborts
ORIGINAL: terje439
From JGN
11.4.6 Interception
Interception is a way of bringing enemy naval units to combat before they end their move. You can try to intercept a task force of enemy naval units as soon as it enters a sea area containing at least one of your faceup naval or aircraft units.
You can’t try to intercept:
A SUB task force; or
Aircraft units flying into or through the sea area; or
Units moving from one section into a lower-numbered section of the same sea-box; or
A task force only containing naval units you are not at war with.
11.5 Naval combat
11.5.1 Combat sequence
Combat sequence
The combat sequence has these steps:
1. Both sides (active side first) fly aircraft to the area (naval air interception).
2. Both sides (active side first) commit SUBs
3. Search for the enemy. If neither side finds the other, the combat is over.
4. Determine type of combat (air, surface or submarine).
5. Resolve combat.
6. Both sides can abort the combat (active side first).
7. If both sides remain, start again from step 1. If not, the combat is over.
if the combat ends, go on to the next sea area.
11.6 Opponent’s naval combat
After your side has resolved combat in all their selected sea areas, any major power on the other side can try to initiate combat (see 11.5.2) in any other sea areas your side moved a non-SUB unit into or within (but not through) in your naval air missions step or your naval movement step. Your opponents can’t pick an area that has already been selected this impulse.
Your opponent simply points to areas, one by one, and, in each of them, turns a unit face-down and follows the sequence in 11.5.1. If a unit your opponent turned face-down during the naval movement step in an interception attempt (see 11.4.6) is still in the sea area, he or she can attempt to start a naval combat there without turning another unit over.
Example: Jeremy has finished all the naval combats he wanted to start. He didn’t try to start a combat in the Eastern Mediterranean where Maria’s Italian fleet is at an advantage against an escorted TRS Jeremy moved there during his naval movement step. Maria turns the VittorioVeneto face-down in an attempt to exploit her advantage. Triumphantly, she rolls a 1 and starts the combat. Despondently, Jeremy reaches for another lager.
In JGN's opinion:
Theoretically, you may attempt to intercept your opponents taskforce in each sea area to which it moves BUT combat can only occur once per impulse per sea area.
Therefore: you would be unable to intercept naval units moving through a sea area in which combat had already occurred.
Your units would be busy "evolved in combat" or "searching for" other units. The naval term for this is "screening" or "screening force(s)".
Normal combat can only occur once per sea area per impulse. Interception combat, however, can occur as many times as new units enter that sea area. There are several places that indicate this but I marked the place that shows it most clearly.
Cut from 11.4.6 Interception
You must now turn a unit (except a convoy) face-down. If you can’t turn
a unit face-down, you can’t intercept. You can turn a SUB face-down
even if you don’t intend to commit your SUBs.
As long as that face-down unit remains in the sea-box, you can make
further interception attempts in that sea area against other task forces
during the same impulse without having to turn over another unit. If
that unit is in the sea-box during naval combat, it also allows you to
attempt to start a naval combat there without having to turn another
unit face-down (see 11.6).
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
RE: Naval Combat Aborts
What or who is JGN ?ORIGINAL: terje439
In JGN's opinion:
This is totaly wrong.Theoretically, you may attempt to intercept your opponents taskforce in each sea area to which it moves BUT combat can only occur once per impulse per sea area.
Therefore: you would be unable to intercept naval units moving through a sea area in which combat had already occurred.
Your units would be busy "evolved in combat" or "searching for" other units. The naval term for this is "screening" or "screening force(s)".
The naval combat of WiF FE are abstractions of the naval combats that take place over 2 months. The "screening" or "screening force(s)" notions have nothing to do with the scale used by WiF FE.
RE: Naval Combat Aborts
Exactly.ORIGINAL: Orm
Normal combat can only occur once per sea area per impulse. Interception combat, however, can occur as many times as new units enter that sea area.
"as many times as new units enter that sea area" is the exact truth.
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Shannon V. OKeets
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RE: Naval Combat Aborts
Well then, this clarifies at least one small point: if a unit aborted from a combat in a sea area goes back through that same sea area for some reason, it is not a 'new' unit and proceed through the sea area without fear of being intercepted.ORIGINAL: Froonp
Exactly.ORIGINAL: Orm
Normal combat can only occur once per sea area per impulse. Interception combat, however, can occur as many times as new units enter that sea area.
"as many times as new units enter that sea area" is the exact truth.
Steve
Perfection is an elusive goal.
Perfection is an elusive goal.
- paulderynck
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RE: Naval Combat Aborts
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The other major problem I have with this is that some units in sea area S might still be waiting to abort when naval combat #3 starts up. For instance, if both sides have 1 unit to abort from naval combat #1's first round, we have only moved one of them so far. The second one, from the other side, is still in limbo. It can not be included in a future combat in sea area S, (since it is aborting), yet it hasn't moved into another sea area yet.
This is a good point. But the way it should work is the second aborting unit(s) is in fact held in limbo until the first aborting unit(s) has finished.
I assume there is code for a standard round of naval combat that looks after everything from the successful search through to the abort decisions. To me that is a stand alone module (or subroutine or method or whatever the appropriate term is). So the program then has to save who is aborting. I liked Orm's nomenclature. S1a is moving and S1b is in limbo. If S1a triggers combat, then the Naval Combat Method runs and now you have S2a and S2b in limbo. This sounds like the "stack" Christopher mentioned.
This should not blow up unless the stack is too shallow to accommodate all the potential "pushes", but there is not a lot being saved each time.
Paul
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RE: Naval Combat Aborts
I have no disagreement with what you are saying so you don't have to be sorry about my view.ORIGINAL: Froonp
I'm sorry guys, but IMO you are falling into the same pit trap a lot of people fall when thinking and playing WiF : You forget the scale.
I mean that IMO, the Naval Combat 1 is a series of naval combats that occurs in sea area S over the timeframe of the 2 months of the turn (more likely during the time frame of the couple of weeks "simulated" by the impulse when this happens in game terms, but not necesseraly as this naval impulse can be considered WiFzenwise to occur more or less simultaneously with a land impulse that gamewise is played later or earlier).
IMO it is perfectly possible that many days separate the 1st round from the second (which can be separate naval battles in reality for me), so it is perfectly possible that the naval movement of ship E, which is not so slow as you say Steve, sailing about 20 knots 24 hours a day makes her run for about 500 nautical miles per day, which is is comparable to the size of a sea area.
If she sails for 3 days, she covers 1200-1500 nautical miles which is an enormous distance and can justify her being included in round 2 of Naval Combat 1.
All I meant is the overall combat is so subjectively representative of the events being simulated that there is no point in trying to figure out if an abort could sail from here to There and Back Again to Mordor - before the other side starts loading their next salvo.
Paul
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RE: Naval Combat Aborts
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
#2 - It is my understanding that each individual unit aborted as the result of a naval combat die roll, has to be immediately aborted. This takes place before the next combat round starts. The movement of that unit can be intercepted in other sea areas.
Voluntary aborts by an entire side at the end of a combat round are different, though a unit that had to abort as the result of a die roll in the current combat round are merged into the rest of that side's units if the side voluntarily aborts.
I hate to point this out but the aborting player can choose to split up the ships in any manner he likes as long as they perform as in the reverse of a naval move. They must comply with RTB but that even allows ships to count down to a lower box, merge with ships in that box and then all sail home together as long as they have the range and movement points to do so. They can all abort individually to different destinations too.
Personally I could live without that added bit of complexity and have RAC mandate that aborts from a box all must sail home together so that in S1, the worst case would be 5 groups of S1a.
EDIT: While aborting (if starting face-up) they can even sail through a port, embark a unit and return it to a different port and flip it. This is RAW but I'd be overjoyed to see that disallowed in RAC.
Paul
RE: Naval Combat Aborts
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
EDIT: While aborting (if starting face-up) they can even sail through a port, embark a unit and return it to a different port and flip it. This is RAW but I'd be overjoyed to see that disallowed in RAC.
I feel this should only have been allowed during volontary return to base move (or during return to base phase). It is important to be able to do so with transports but feels wrong when a unit is aborting after combat. I do not however think Steve should put any effort in changing this one way or the other if it is in place and working.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
- paulderynck
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RE: Naval Combat Aborts
ORIGINAL: Orm
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
EDIT: While aborting (if starting face-up) they can even sail through a port, embark a unit and return it to a different port and flip it. This is RAW but I'd be overjoyed to see that disallowed in RAC.
I feel this should only have been allowed during volontary return to base move (or during return to base phase). It is important to be able to do so with transports but feels wrong when a unit is aborting after combat. I do not however think Steve should put any effort in changing this one way or the other if it is in place and working.
Agreed. A simple fix both in code and in the good old analog world is to flip combat aborts before they start moving.
Paul
RE: Naval Combat Aborts
Great, I like when we agree [:D]ORIGINAL: paulderynckI have no disagreement with what you are saying so you don't have to be sorry about my view.ORIGINAL: Froonp
I'm sorry guys, but IMO you are falling into the same pit trap a lot of people fall when thinking and playing WiF : You forget the scale.
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
I hate to point this out but the aborting player can choose to split up the ships in any manner he likes as long as they perform as in the reverse of a naval move. They must comply with RTB but that even allows ships to count down to a lower box, merge with ships in that box and then all sail home together as long as they have the range and movement points to do so. They can all abort individually to different destinations too.
I disagree with that Paul, I mean the last part about merging ships from a high box with ships from a low box. This is absolutely not possible.
This is because 11.4.1 says :
*****************************
You make 1 “naval move” with surface naval units every time you:
(a) move a task force of face-up surface naval units (plus, of course, any units they are transporting) from one port, to any one destination (either to one other port or to the same section of a sea-box); or
(b) move a task force of face-up surface naval units from one section directly to one lower section of the same sea-box; or
(c) return a task force of face-up surface naval units from one section of a sea-box to one port (see 13.4).
*****************************
So, the ships in a high box sailing a return to base naval move have to sail from their box to the port. They do not "count down to a lower box". They have a number equal to their box number substracted from their range & move, but they do not "count down to a lower box". and can't merge with ships from lower boxes.
If they want to merge, they need to do that in 2 separates naval moves.
One naval movement that complies with (b) above, and then another naval movement that complies with (c) above. 2 Naval movements can't be made in the same return to base naval movement, the player would have to have prepared the joining during a previous impulse.
Same for me. It should be disallowed, I mean for ships aborting due to combat damage, not ships aborting from the whole sea area. The former are in reality ships that took some battle damage that made them quit fighting and head for home for repairs (minor repairs that you don't pay for at the WiF FE scale), while the latter are task forces who admit they are beaten and had for home to avoid further encounters with the ennemy. The former are damaged and impaired by that battle damage, the latter are perfectly healthy and are just fleeing the combat zone. They can go through port and load units while the damaged ones could not.EDIT: While aborting (if starting face-up) they can even sail through a port, embark a unit and return it to a different port and flip it. This is RAW but I'd be overjoyed to see that disallowed in RAC.
It is allowed for the moment because Harry answered the FAQ by applyinf RAW strictly, and the matter was not really thought of before when RAW was written.
RE: Naval Combat Aborts
Agreed completely.ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Agreed. A simple fix both in code and in the good old analog world is to flip combat aborts before they start moving.
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Shannon V. OKeets
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RE: Naval Combat Aborts
I agree with all of this.ORIGINAL: Froonp
Great, I like when we agree [:D]ORIGINAL: paulderynckI have no disagreement with what you are saying so you don't have to be sorry about my view.ORIGINAL: Froonp
I'm sorry guys, but IMO you are falling into the same pit trap a lot of people fall when thinking and playing WiF : You forget the scale.
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
I hate to point this out but the aborting player can choose to split up the ships in any manner he likes as long as they perform as in the reverse of a naval move. They must comply with RTB but that even allows ships to count down to a lower box, merge with ships in that box and then all sail home together as long as they have the range and movement points to do so. They can all abort individually to different destinations too.
I disagree with that Paul, I mean the last part about merging ships from a high box with ships from a low box. This is absolutely not possible.
This is because 11.4.1 says :
*****************************
You make 1 “naval move” with surface naval units every time you:
(a) move a task force of face-up surface naval units (plus, of course, any units they are transporting) from one port, to any one destination (either to one other port or to the same section of a sea-box); or
(b) move a task force of face-up surface naval units from one section directly to one lower section of the same sea-box; or
(c) return a task force of face-up surface naval units from one section of a sea-box to one port (see 13.4).
*****************************
So, the ships in a high box sailing a return to base naval move have to sail from their box to the port. They do not "count down to a lower box". They have a number equal to their box number substracted from their range & move, but they do not "count down to a lower box". and can't merge with ships from lower boxes.
If they want to merge, they need to do that in 2 separates naval moves.
One naval movement that complies with (b) above, and then another naval movement that complies with (c) above. 2 Naval movements can't be made in the same return to base naval movement, the player would have to have prepared the joining during a previous impulse.
Same for me. It should be disallowed, I mean for ships aborting due to combat damage, not ships aborting from the whole sea area. The former are in reality ships that took some battle damage that made them quit fighting and head for home for repairs (minor repairs that you don't pay for at the WiF FE scale), while the latter are task forces who admit they are beaten and had for home to avoid further encounters with the ennemy. The former are damaged and impaired by that battle damage, the latter are perfectly healthy and are just fleeing the combat zone. They can go through port and load units while the damaged ones could not.EDIT: While aborting (if starting face-up) they can even sail through a port, embark a unit and return it to a different port and flip it. This is RAW but I'd be overjoyed to see that disallowed in RAC.
It is allowed for the moment because Harry answered the FAQ by applyinf RAW strictly, and the matter was not really thought of before when RAW was written.
Steve
Perfection is an elusive goal.
Perfection is an elusive goal.
- paulderynck
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RE: Naval Combat Aborts
ORIGINAL: Froonp
I disagree with that Paul, I mean the last part about merging ships from a high box with ships from a low box. This is absolutely not possible.
This is because 11.4.1 says :
*****************************
You make 1 “naval move” with surface naval units every time you:
(a) move a task force of face-up surface naval units (plus, of course, any units they are transporting) from one port, to any one destination (either to one other port or to the same section of a sea-box); or
(b) move a task force of face-up surface naval units from one section directly to one lower section of the same sea-box; or
(c) return a task force of face-up surface naval units from one section of a sea-box to one port (see 13.4).
*****************************
So, the ships in a high box sailing a return to base naval move have to sail from their box to the port. They do not "count down to a lower box". They have a number equal to their box number substracted from their range & move, but they do not "count down to a lower box". and can't merge with ships from lower boxes.
If they want to merge, they need to do that in 2 separates naval moves.
One naval movement that complies with (b) above, and then another naval movement that complies with (c) above. 2 Naval movements can't be made in the same return to base naval movement, the player would have to have prepared the joining during a previous impulse.
I humbly bow to your superior knowledge of RAW. [&o]
I was remembering this quote from the example in 11.4.2: "2 Commonwealth SCS sail together from Alexandria to the eastern Mediterranean. It is not possible for one to move into the Red Sea while the other enters the western Mediterranean. One could stop in the eastern Mediterranean while the other continues on to either of those adjacent sea areas."
But forgot the rest of it: "That would then count as 2 naval moves. Alternatively, you could move them separately to the Red Sea and the western Mediterranean. That would also count as 2 naval moves."
Hooray - that deletes some potential programming complexity!
[&o]
Paul
RE: Naval Combat Aborts
Another mail from JGN:
Interception attempt fails
If the interception attempt fails, the moving force continues as if nothing had happened.
In JGN’s opinion: This would allow you to have further interception attempts or Naval combat ROUNDS since NO COMBAT HAS OCCURRED without having to flip another unit.
NOTE: The interception fails not combat has ended.
Successful interception
If the interception attempt succeeds, the moving player has 2 choices:
(a) Stop the move in that sea area; or
(b) Try to fight through.
13.4 Return to base
Units at sea can return to base during this step. If they do, they will be available to sail again in the next turn. Those that stay at sea will only be able to stay in the sea-box next turn or sail back to a port.
Units may return to base during naval movement, after aborting from combat and during this step. You return units to base like a normal naval move except in reverse.
Each unit returning to base is limited by its movement allowance (reduced for the sea-box section it is occupying) and by its range.
What if you can’t return to base? (I.E. You are intercepted while aborted.)
Destroy any unit (checked individually) that has no base to return to. It makes no difference if a unit couldn’t return to base because it was out of range or was blocked by naval movement restrictions (see 8.2.10 and 11.4.4).
Destroy any unit at sea that couldn’t have returned to base (even if it could stay at sea).
For Patrice: True, this is a strategic game with bi-monthly turns. The numbers of the naval combat ROUNDS are representative of naval engagements during that month.
Do I need to supply you with examples of screening actions during World War II? Here are some for you: The British cruisers shadowing (screening) the Bismarck, Japanese carrier Shoho “the Battle of the Coral Sea”, and “the Battle of Savo Island” where the Allied cruiser force screened the transports.
Interception attempt fails
If the interception attempt fails, the moving force continues as if nothing had happened.
In JGN’s opinion: This would allow you to have further interception attempts or Naval combat ROUNDS since NO COMBAT HAS OCCURRED without having to flip another unit.
NOTE: The interception fails not combat has ended.
Successful interception
If the interception attempt succeeds, the moving player has 2 choices:
(a) Stop the move in that sea area; or
(b) Try to fight through.
13.4 Return to base
Units at sea can return to base during this step. If they do, they will be available to sail again in the next turn. Those that stay at sea will only be able to stay in the sea-box next turn or sail back to a port.
Units may return to base during naval movement, after aborting from combat and during this step. You return units to base like a normal naval move except in reverse.
Each unit returning to base is limited by its movement allowance (reduced for the sea-box section it is occupying) and by its range.
What if you can’t return to base? (I.E. You are intercepted while aborted.)
Destroy any unit (checked individually) that has no base to return to. It makes no difference if a unit couldn’t return to base because it was out of range or was blocked by naval movement restrictions (see 8.2.10 and 11.4.4).
Destroy any unit at sea that couldn’t have returned to base (even if it could stay at sea).
For Patrice: True, this is a strategic game with bi-monthly turns. The numbers of the naval combat ROUNDS are representative of naval engagements during that month.
Do I need to supply you with examples of screening actions during World War II? Here are some for you: The British cruisers shadowing (screening) the Bismarck, Japanese carrier Shoho “the Battle of the Coral Sea”, and “the Battle of Savo Island” where the Allied cruiser force screened the transports.
"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen
("She is to be torpedoed!")
("She is to be torpedoed!")
RE: Naval Combat Aborts
Well, this may be right that screening actions show at the WiF FE scale, but this does not make right the affirmation of that mysterious JGN (JagdGeschwader of Nowhere ?) that "combat can only occur once per impulse per sea area". Nor does the examples provided show that "combat can only occur once per impulse per sea area". There is nothing in RAW that supports that, and on the contrary there are multiples places that support the contrary, as Orm shown in post #22.ORIGINAL: terje439
Another mail from JGN:
Interception attempt fails
If the interception attempt fails, the moving force continues as if nothing had happened.
In JGN’s opinion: This would allow you to have further interception attempts or Naval combat ROUNDS since NO COMBAT HAS OCCURRED without having to flip another unit.
NOTE: The interception fails not combat has ended.
Successful interception
If the interception attempt succeeds, the moving player has 2 choices:
(a) Stop the move in that sea area; or
(b) Try to fight through.
13.4 Return to base
Units at sea can return to base during this step. If they do, they will be available to sail again in the next turn. Those that stay at sea will only be able to stay in the sea-box next turn or sail back to a port.
Units may return to base during naval movement, after aborting from combat and during this step. You return units to base like a normal naval move except in reverse.
Each unit returning to base is limited by its movement allowance (reduced for the sea-box section it is occupying) and by its range.
What if you can’t return to base? (I.E. You are intercepted while aborted.)
Destroy any unit (checked individually) that has no base to return to. It makes no difference if a unit couldn’t return to base because it was out of range or was blocked by naval movement restrictions (see 8.2.10 and 11.4.4).
Destroy any unit at sea that couldn’t have returned to base (even if it could stay at sea).
For Patrice: True, this is a strategic game with bi-monthly turns. The numbers of the naval combat ROUNDS are representative of naval engagements during that month.
Do I need to supply you with examples of screening actions during World War II? Here are some for you: The British cruisers shadowing (screening) the Bismarck, Japanese carrier Shoho “the Battle of the Coral Sea”, and “the Battle of Savo Island” where the Allied cruiser force screened the transports.
RE: Naval Combat Aborts
from JGN:
Orm’s post was dealt with in Post #22
Interception attempt fails
If the interception attempt fails, the moving force continues as if nothing had happened.
In JGN’s opinion: This would allow you to have further interception attempts or Naval combat ROUNDS since NO COMBAT HAS OCCURRED without having to flip another unit.
NOTE: The interception fails not combat has ended.
And finally from me (Terje) - Merry Xmas everyone!
ORIGINAL: Patrice
Well, this may be right that screening actions show at the WiF FE scale, but this does not make right the affirmation of that mysterious JGN (JagdGeschwader of Nowhere ?) that "combat can only occur once per impulse per sea area". Nor does the examples provided show that "combat can only occur once per impulse per sea area". There is nothing in RAW that supports that, and on the contrary there are multiples places that support the contrary, as Orm shown in post #22.
ORIGINAL: Orm
Normal combat can only occur once per sea area per impulse. Interception combat, however, can occur as many times as new units enter that sea area. There are several places that indicate this but I marked the place that shows it most clearly.
Cut from 11.4.6 Interception
You must now turn a unit (except a convoy) face-down. If you can’t turn a unit face-down, you can’t intercept. You can turn a SUB face-down even if you don’t intend to commit your SUBs.
As long as that face-down unit remains in the sea-box, you can make further interception attempts in that sea area against other task forces during the same impulse without having to turn over another unit. If that unit is in the sea-box during naval combat, it also allows you to attempt to start a naval combat there without having to turn another unit face-down (see 11.6).
Orm’s post was dealt with in Post #22
Interception attempt fails
If the interception attempt fails, the moving force continues as if nothing had happened.
In JGN’s opinion: This would allow you to have further interception attempts or Naval combat ROUNDS since NO COMBAT HAS OCCURRED without having to flip another unit.
NOTE: The interception fails not combat has ended.
And finally from me (Terje) - Merry Xmas everyone!
"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen
("She is to be torpedoed!")
("She is to be torpedoed!")
RE: Naval Combat Aborts
Well, I must admit that JagdGeschwader Nowhere point is blurry to me.ORIGINAL: terje439
from JGN:
Orm’s post was dealt with in Post #22
Interception attempt fails
If the interception attempt fails, the moving force continues as if nothing had happened.
In JGN’s opinion: This would allow you to have further interception attempts or Naval combat ROUNDS since NO COMBAT HAS OCCURRED without having to flip another unit.
NOTE: The interception fails not combat has ended.
And finally from me (Terje) - Merry Xmas everyone!
First he claimed that :
Theoretically, you may attempt to intercept your opponents taskforce in each sea area to which it moves BUT combat can only occur once per impulse per sea area.
Therefore: you would be unable to intercept naval units moving through a sea area in which combat had already occurred.
In which the last part is totaly wrong.
Now he says that :
Which seems like a right sentence -- though I don't understand why he stress that "no combat has occured" -- but that I can't link with the previous affirmation.This would allow you to have further interception attempts or Naval combat ROUNDS since NO COMBAT HAS OCCURRED without having to flip another unit.
To be clear, my point is what Orm wrote in his post #22, that is :
Normal combat can only occur once per sea area per impulse. Interception combat, however, can occur as many times as new units enter that sea area.
- paulderynck
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RE: Naval Combat Aborts
ORIGINAL: Froonp
To be clear, my point is what Orm wrote in his post #22, that is :
Normal combat can only occur once per sea area per impulse. Interception combat, however, can occur as many times as new units enter that sea area.
Absolutely! ...and as Steve has demonstrated they may not even be that "new" when they re-enter.
Paul
RE: Naval Combat Aborts
Another one from JGN;
Nothing to support my view in the RAW?
NOTE:
It specifically says "combat".
It does not say “Naval combat”.
It does not say “Intercept combat”.
It specifically says “Interception combat attempts”.
It does not say “Interception combats”.
This means that ONE (1) “Naval combat” - OR - “Intercept combat” can occur in a sea area per impulse.
Otherwise the RAW would read:
Original: Froonp post #36
Well, this may be right that screening actions show at the WiF FE scale, but this does not make right the affirmation of that mysterious JGN (JagdGeschwader of Nowhere ?) that "combat can only occur once per impulse per sea area". Nor does the examples provided show that "combat can only occur once per impulse per sea area". There is nothing in RAW that supports that, and on the contrary there are multiples places that support the contrary, as Orm shown in post #22.
Nothing to support my view in the RAW?
Original: WORLD IN FLAMES: Final Rules page #19 (verbatim from WiFFE-Raw-7.0.pdf)
11.5 Naval combat
11.5.1 Combat sequence
After you have made all your naval moves, you can, if you wish, initiate naval combat. A SIDE CAN ONLY TRY TO INITIATE COMBAT ONCE IN EACH SEA AREA each naval combat step (there can be any number of INTERCEPTION COMBAT ATTEMPTS during naval movement).
You can’t try to initiate naval combat at all if you chose a land or pass action. However, your units can take part in any combat that another major power initiates.
Choose a sea area and initiate a combat there. You can only choose an area if it contains at least one unit from each side that are at war with each other.
NOTE:
It specifically says "combat".
It does not say “Naval combat”.
It does not say “Intercept combat”.
It specifically says “Interception combat attempts”.
It does not say “Interception combats”.
This means that ONE (1) “Naval combat” - OR - “Intercept combat” can occur in a sea area per impulse.
Otherwise the RAW would read:
“After you have made all your naval moves, you can, if you wish, initiate naval side can only try to initiate combat once in each sea area each naval combat step (there can be any number of INTERCEPTION COMBATS during naval movement).”
"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen
("She is to be torpedoed!")
("She is to be torpedoed!")



