ATTN: Mobius and Mraah "Halbketten Mod Pack"

[spellir74]

(I say 'attention to Mobius and Mraah' because they have recently expressed an interest in exactly this concept. Of course anyone is free to join in.)

(EDIT: Ya know --early on (months ago)-- it was Mraah _and JMass_ who started HT-variant millings with 'their' 251/10 'release'. I don't know why I didn't include JMass in the "ATTN" above.

So JMass, what ever knowledge you have about such beasts (HT variants), please deliever it.

And "of course anyone is free to join in.")


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I have an idea.

The...

"Halbketten [Half Track] Mod Pack"

Some of the sdk251 gunned versions -- but _in two types: A-C type and later D type_.

But we need to decide on rarity, points and dates.

You may ask, "why do _we_ need to decide; why not just release your own idea?". The answer is I don't want multiple versions of the _same exact units_ in my folder, where some (with their values) are called by this-ah scenario and others (with their different values) are called by that-ah one.

So keeping that in mind, here is my first pass at figures (given my research), for your approval:

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Sd Kfz 251 family

[spellir74]

All 'D' XML's have slightly better armour (per Mobius) and higher points. All gunned-versions have more mass --dependent on gun type; /22 is little slower because of cumbersome gun. All ROFs have been lowered compared with these same guns as they appear in their stock vehicle (eg Pak40's L46 is 9, while /22's here is 6). D/09 has higher ROF gun than /09
representing the better mount.

(The realistic gun values makes these a little heavy for their role in the _game_, IMO. I originally outfitted my 250/11 pzBuk and 251/09 stummel with upped versions of stock ATR and IG, so as to keep those vehicles inf-like units.)

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We'll use the already made 251/10 and Stock 251 models.

[We'll use them, unless you all want to make the '/22' and 'stummel' in A-C type and D type (sloped ass-end).]

[But even if models are a no go (which is fine--no pressure),] let me know your opinions on the values above, so we won't have duplicate units out there with different values. I predict contention over the entry dates for the '37mm stielGr'(we might need two versions of that) and all the 'med___' dates and values. Also contention over the outer file names: do we want units to line up as above or do we want all 'D' types listing after the 'A-C' types in the Scenario Editor drop down? (For me, it's one or the other --I deeply don't like them being haphazardly outside of family groups in the drop down list and folder.) Also, do we really want the guns to be "realistically" strong or should we err on the side of keeping them down by the Inf units? And regarding points, FYI the Sdk222(recon) is 17 points, while the Puma is 40!.

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Sd Kfz 250 family Too!

[spellir74]

My sources say 'phase out' late 44, so I made my 250s here 05/45 (down from stock 06/45) to represent that a little.

The '/x com-obs' is lightly armed. It would be interesting if the obs & command vehicles [eg this and future release no-gun Befelwgs] afforded some benefit to morale and barrage accuracy [or airstrike more likely to arrive].

The '/11' uses Mobius '28mm sPzBuk' file (it must be installed in your "Data/Guns" folder). I originally went lower than that...

I wasn't being as ignorant as it seems. The reason I made the 250 PzBuk under-gunned --using a muscled up ATR-- is I didn't want the field to become top heavy with big guns. Ie, for game reasons I tried to keep the knights from becoming rooks. I also wanted to make use of the stock ATR and IG vibe. Hopefully the --admitedly cool-- sPzBuk gun there isn't too killamagilla. (This whole game here starts as his baby so he might have some insight.)

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So what do you think!

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Here is a zip of compendium images for the --already finished (with the values above) --HT families, ready to go for whoever.

[spellir74]

You Tube "brit documentary" on 251s. After that video there is one at the same place on the 250.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/schut ... -251/14091

{!! Edit --That link is dead already. When you get there, copy and paste "schutzenpanzerwagen-sdkfz-251" into the search. (250s will be there abouts too.)}

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Notes on 251, etal

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Sd.Kfz. 251

Sd.Kfz. = Sonderkraftfahrzeug "special purpose vehicle" (or Special Ordnance Vehicle)

"sd kf-'zed'"

Hanomag company ("Hanomag 251")

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251A begun 6/39 (Pol and France)

251/4 tows 105mm haub
251/10 pak36

(/1, /4 and /10 earliest)

251B "SPWs" _{mittlerer "Schützen panzerwagen"}_

'41 most Pz Divs have now.
'42 all pz Div have now.

(((
ToE was such that only some companies of a rifle regiment rode in SPWs; the rest of regiment rode in trucks. Few of armoured company's SPWs were heavy armed variants. Smaller SdK 250 variants often carried mortar and MG crews [late '43, 250s phased into Recon Btn vehicles, replacing 222s].

251 carries 10 men; 250 carries 6 men.
)))

251C begun mid '40 to sept '43 (Most to Russia; Karkov 2)
Most common SPW on film.

late '44 as training.

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251/3 "Funk Wg" Radio (+enigma); links arms of battle, senior officer/command staff
Frame aerial till '42 (then clasic rod late '42)

{8 ton 251 HT; 1 ton D-Mag HT (Me323 "Gigant" slow plane carries)}

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4650 A-C built, then sept '43 "251D" is begun --Simpler; large sloped rear.

33mph on road; 1gal/4miles. (american documentary)

SPW = 10602 total by end; D is most numerous.

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4 hull types-- A-D

Variant Description

SdKfz 251/1: Armored personnel carrier (standard design)
SdKfz 251/2: 8cm mortar carrier
SdKfz 251/3: Radio vehicle, "funk wagon"; command, senior officers; framed antenna till '42
SdKfz 251/4: Munitions carrier; towed 105mm haub
SdKfz 251/5: Radio control for engineer platoon vehicle
SdKfz 251/6: Command vehicle
SdKfz 251/7: Engineer stores vehicle (bridges)
SdKfz 251/8: Ambulance
SdKfz 251/9: 75mm self propelled gun 'stummel' ('Stump') --not until late '42 (L24 75mm)
SdKfz 251/10: 37mm self propelled gun (pak36)
SdKfz 251/11: Telephone exchange and cable laying vehicle
SdKfz 251/12: Artillery survey vehicle
SdKfz 251/13: Artillery sound recording vehicle
SdKfz 251/14: Artillery sound ranging vehicle
SdKfz 251/15: Artillery flash spotter and recording vehicle
SdKfz 251/16: Flamethrower(140mm) '44
SdKfz 251/17: 20mm flak
SdKfz 251/18: Observation post vehicle
SdKfz 251/19: Mobile telephone relay
SdKfz 251/20: Infrared searchlight carrier (paired with Panzer tanks)
SdKfz 251/21: 1.5cm flak
SdKfz 251/22: 75mm PaK 40


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23 variants total

251/7 pioneer is standout.

251/9 'Stummel' 75mm = late '42 on C then D

251/16 = 140mm Flamethrower (Market Garden)

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Till end in Berlin streets.

(No more filming after 3/45 by Goebbels' order.)

Last Ger offensive, 1/45 = "Case South Wind": Hungary -Budapest, lake bataton.

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"SPWs" "Schützen panzerwagen"; D (last) is most common variant; C most common on film.


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"InfanterieStuka" = werfer

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"Halbkettenecke" = half track

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basic chassis design--
SdKfz 11 leichter Zugkraftwagen artillery tractor.

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SdKfz 10 very widespread prime mover --20mm Flak 38, the 75 mm light infantry gun, or the 50 mm Pak 38 ATG. eight troops. 17,000 were produced between 1937 and 1944, making it one of the most widely-produced German tactical vehicles of the war. The chassis formed the basis for the SdKfz 250. Variants included self-propelled 20 mm mounts and field-expedient 50 mm PAK mounts.

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Some Links to other PzC threads that deal with HTs...

tm.asp?m=1896071&mpage=1&key=

tm.asp?m=1882112&mpage=1&key=?

[Mraah]

spellir74,

Once again you amaze us with you data crunching !! [:)]
Thank you for your work!

I'm not a historian nor a grognard on equipment OOB's so I'll leave those points to argue with the rest of you guys.

Now, one interesting note to point out ... These new gunned HT's still follow under the "light vehicles" or "transports" as far as the game is concerned. Not very many points are applied to the TRANSPORT category when generating RBG or RCG.

I ran some tests in an RBG on the the 251_10 ... Changed the attribute from HalfTrack to LightTank ... Spring 1942 (3/42) ... Mobius original data...
The data below is taken from the RBG_ZD.TXT file after it generated the battle ;
1. As a HalfTrack ~ 16.3%
2. As a Light Tank ~ 2.7%

I left the "movetype" as 3 (halftrack) so it wouldn't change the terrain effects when moving.
I left the medprev as 4 .

As you can see, by changing it to LightTank it now competes with the rest of the tanks but at a lower chance to be rolled.

Anyway, something to consider ... Do we want them to compete with tanks or with transports?

Rob

EDIT NOTE : Regarding POINTS ... If we left them as transports with high point cost we might not see them generate .... If we made them lighttanks then we would have more a of chance to see them ... albeit if the medprev # was increased.

[Mobius]

I don'l know about changing the attribute from halftrack to light tank.  This might disable the protection of the halftrack walls to any passengers.

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

I don'l know about changing the attribute from halftrack to light tank.  This might disable the protection of the halftrack walls to any passengers.

Oh yeah ... not a good idea, we'll leave them at HT.

Anyway, we can see that adding more HT variants will result in them competing with each other so I think the best thing to do is waiting untill ALL the HT variants (including any 222 and any scout vehicles) are done before worrying about medprev values.Frankly we'll just use spellir74's numbers for now.

Rob

[spellir74]

>Thank you for your work!

You're welcome.

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>"[LightTank or Half track]"

Yeah that could of been one solution to explore to keep RGB occurance low.

BUT the issue introduced by Mobius' "no protection for carried troops" stops it.