The First Team: Take Two!

[ny59giants]

More on China with you needing to divide it into the north vs south from an Allied perspective.

North
If you want to add more to your economy, go here. You will have HI, Resources, and Oil by capturing Lanchow, Sian, and Yenan. They have only trails connecting him with his major supply at Chingking. Plus, he will have trouble sending troops up here. Most of the troop are static.

South
Changsha and Wuchow add HI and Resources to your economy. He has a lot more LCU with a significant amount non-static. Surrounding and killing them in mass will be more difficult.

So....

[Canoerebel]

Myth: Most Chinese units are static in Big B.

The Chinese have ALOT of mobile troops. If the Allies keep most Chinese units in China it would be very easy to defend Changsha and probably Wuchow. A simultaneous massed Jap attack north from Hanoi and west from Canton might have a chance at making headway, but at what cost? It would take a huge commitment that would minimize Jap chances elsewhere on the map.

It's easy for either side to "hold the line" in China. Don't succumb to the temptation to try to gain territory (with the exception of Kanhsien and Yenan, which are pretty easy). Go for a stalemate here and concentrate on the rest of the map where the IJN and transports give you mobility and the chance to apply overwhelming force where you choose.

[John 3rd]

Thanks for the massed comments.

Dan I take your insights as gospel since you have kicked my &**&^^ with Chinese troops elsewhere on the map!  All those Chinese Hordes attacking in our game, were they freed up by my attacks earlier in the war or were they mobile to start with?  This REALLY provides an answer to the China problem early.  If they were already mobile then we are screwed from the start.  If they were not then we need to be more careful and pick our battles.

2nd ACR I am really beginning to agree with your thinking.  I think we shall wait at least two weeks to launch the overland assault from Rahaeng.  We can seal off Rangoon by using Tavoy and Victoria Point to fly our bombers and fighters while Port Blair can build-up and fly naval search missions.  If we wait the two weeks to attack then it will take at least two more weeks to arrive at Moulmein.  We have to be careful because stopping that juncture with the Chinese units is very important.  Lashio will still need to be taken to prevent that.

Castor has made me remember that as soon as we cut the Burma Road this will throw the Chinese into more supply trouble. 

The North or South argument has merit too.  If we look to move into India to gain a boost to the economy then shouldn't the SAME thought be used in China?  If we work that line of reasoning then, perhaps, a Northern Attack is better.

Heck--I don't know...

[Q-Ball]

Good ideas guys from those who know China, and Big B, better than I do. Looking at the map, those ideas have merit; Yenen is very isolated, and many nearby troops concentrations are Static, and can't interfere in a push there. The only mobile troops up north are a half-dozen or so Corps around Homan.

In the south, on the other hand, there are about 12-16 corps in the Changsha/Kanhsien area, and many of them can easily reach Changsha.

It looks to me like the guiding principle has to be to take advantage of the Static units, and don't play into their hands; that means, surround static garrisons, destroy them, and DON'T push static troops back to where they are now MOBILE.

I am going to consult with my partner, but I think that means an offensive on Yenen, with a limited attack initially toward Wenchow. Everywhere else we dig in. Once Yenen is isolated and destroyed, we can then move on Sian/Homan, and maybe simulatenously isolate Paotow and take our time there.

PS: If we want to isolate and destroy Chinese, we probably need tanks. We will have to take a look at where all our tanks are going, because we will need some in India as well.

[Q-Ball]

PS, Castor Troy just posted a couple interesting thoughts on India on his AAR with Miller. His OOB looks almost exactly like the OOB I sent John; we need every spare Division possible for India, even if that means leaving things behind (isolated). We should be able to muster 8 Divisions for that assault shortly after the fall of Singapore: The 5th, 16th, 18th, IG from Malaya, the 21st,38th from China/Hanoi, and the 4th and 2nd from Luzon. This doesn't include any we might "buy" from China or Manchuria. This leaves the 48th, and spare brigades to reduce Luzon and Java. We may need to increase on Java, but this is preliminary.

Another lesson from that: Bring lots and lots of supplies. We will have to remember that.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

PS, Castor Troy just posted a couple interesting thoughts on India on his AAR with Miller. His OOB looks almost exactly like the OOB I sent John; we need every spare Division possible for India, even if that means leaving things behind (isolated). We should be able to muster 8 Divisions for that assault shortly after the fall of Singapore: The 5th, 16th, 18th, IG from Malaya, the 21st,38th from China/Hanoi, and the 4th and 2nd from Luzon. This doesn't include any we might "buy" from China or Manchuria. This leaves the 48th, and spare brigades to reduce Luzon and Java. We may need to increase on Java, but this is preliminary.

Another lesson from that: Bring lots and lots of supplies. We will have to remember that.

One more tip: bring M O R E supply!!!!! If you land 5000 assault points then those troops will need 40.000 supplies just to fill up the units with supply. So minimum IMO would be.... 125.000 if you don´t want to run into problems. Problems mean if you have to seize supply from the enemy.

[John 3rd]

I like a Yenen Offensive.  We could surround the troops before entering the city and then destroy them.  I'm going to look around the map to see what we have available and what good, economic targets there might be.

We can clear out Kansien and push Wuchow and say 'good enough.'  Dig in and PRAY at our Shinto Shrines!

The problem about mopping up is that we need every darned resource center we can grab so the economy can expand and we be competitive later in the war.  Brad--Do you think you could take 2 Inf Div and a Brigade or two to take out Java then pull the Inf Div to attack India? 

We also have to remember that once the Allies know where we are placing maximum effort they will come at us in the Pacific.  This is where those little Brigades in China come into play.  Each of those 10 Brigades builds out to an Assault Strength of 125-150.  They should serve to stand-up to most attacks initially.

If I can raise Merry Hell in the Pacific then we shouldn't have too much issue for a year or so.  If I can get LUCKY...  At least the Pearl Harbor attack showed that that can happen.  I REALLY Hope we get BB Pennsylvania!  She took SIX Torps...ummmm...I will sacrifice a goat this afternoon...

A big attack into India will also mean commitment of carriers.  Brad--We will really have to coordinate that between us.  Do we want to place all the new CV construction towards India?  We could add Shoho/Junyo/Hiyo to that Theatre for some more punch.  You've got Ryujo (48), Zuiho (30), Hosho (10), and Taiyo (30) at the moment.  The new CVs should be completed along these lines:  Shoho (30) Jan 1st, Junyo (51) early-Feb, Hiyo (51) in early-April.  If we accelerate CVE Unyo it would be ready about March 1st with CVE Chuyo done in distant June.

IF I can score an early victory in sinking an American CV or two then I could easily dispatch a KB Division to help.

Does anyone know our opponent's style?  Do we have any idea as to their division of labor?

I've played Paul for over 3 years and he was HIGHLY conservative.  Claims to have seen he could be more aggressive but I'm not sure if he will change.

Tally Ho (FOW) is an unknown to me.

[John 3rd]

As to seizing enemy supply, there is NO problem there.  I mean the Germans planned on it at the Ardennes in 1944 right?  It worked out FINE for them...  [:@][8|][:@]  Thanks Castor.

PS  Dan if you are reading, my email is acting all flucky and cannot get our turn sent.  Will keep working on it. Correct that--I cannot log into msn.com mail. Anyone else having issues with theirs?

[ny59giants]

You cannot leave the Philippines alone for too long. They will get over 300 Assault Value worth of troops on Luzon within the first month. Add that to the number of troops they have there and throughout the islands. Let them get some experience and start to fill out their TO&E. You could face some trouble if your opponents are aggressive.  

[John 3rd]

THAT is a lovely thought.  Thanks a lot buddy...

Seriously--good thoughts for us to remember.

[ny59giants]

Sir John,
You know I will be over giving the Allies some suggestions to defeat the Japanese hordes. [:D]
Once an AFB, always an AFB.
Michael

[John 3rd]

Here is the North China Region:

[John 3rd]

I just perused the Manchurian Front and am thinking about what might help our offensive into India.  Here is a late-Christmas request list:

Tsitsihar       2nd/10th Heavy Gun Regiment
66,28           23rd Tank Reg
Mishan         3rd Cavalry Brigade/11th Tank Reg
Mutankiang   10th Tank Reg/27th & 7th Engineer Reg
62,33           Tone Heavy Gun Reg
Fushan         Botanko Heavy Gun Reg
Harbin          8th Heavy Gun Reg

Did I miss anything?

[Q-Ball]

I have also used those Chinese Brigades, but I would rather pull tank units from the Home Islands FIRST before China. Unless we are really pressed for PPs, I would also rather pull Kwantung troops than China Command......Pulling from China subtracts from efforts there, while pulling from Manchuria subtracts from nothing. (provided we keep the 8000K garrison of course).

Also, I think we are HOUSE RULE restricted from using Kwantung troops in China. We should check that, because there is huge number of units available if not.

[John 3rd]

Agree with that thinking.  The LAST thing I EVER want to see happen is Russia become active!  

Japan and Manchuria sounds good to draw from particularly in armor and heavy artillery.  What do you think our priorities ought to be for pulling units out of these areas?

What do you think of the Northern China option?

[John 3rd]

There isn't very much in Japan to help the attack:
Fukuoka   1st Reserve Tank Reg
Osaka      6th Reserve Tank Reg
Sasebo    1st Mortar Reg

[Q-Ball]

1. We should attack in North China, I like that. Yenan, then depending on how that goes, Sian, then Honan. Paotow looks like a tempting point grab, if Yenen falls it's completely isolated (and Static). Maintain defensive in South China, with exception of drive on Wenchow.
2. In terms of pulling troops, the two tank Rgts in Home Islands are very cheap, currently about 100 points. Those should be first. The 12th and 13th Bdes are also cheap. 8th Heavy Art Bde is not expensive, and packs a punch. 20th Inf Div. in Korea is very expensive, over 3000 points; but it's experienced, and right now doing nothing. We should probably start prepping many divisions in Manchuria for both Eastern Australia (decoy), and Karachi.
3. We are also going to need PP for aircraft, starting with those Claude units in the Home Islands (when we have enough Zeros), and also including the Kwantung air forces.

I thought about the Kwantung Tank units, but I noticed in this mod that those particular units have AT guns and AA guns attached, which I think will slow the unit down. I wonder if that was on purpose. It's only the Kwantung tanks.

Also John you had asked about CV Support for India....it may be possible to pull it off without KB. If we go in early Feb, there will only be 1 RN CV plus Hermes; HMS Formidable arrives 3/15/42. We will gain Junyo about 3/1/42, and Shoho before then. LBA will be a problem, but we will have to accept some losses to get ashore. The RN CV's always give me headaches with Baby KB, they don't pack a big punch but are very difficult to sink. Meanwhile, a stiff breeze can sink Ryujo. If we do retain all of KB in the Cent Pac, we will need nearly all BB's in the IO, to protect the fleet and for bombardment support. As you know the RN BB fleet is formidable; they will have difficulty getting in range, but we have to account for them. An advantage of invading early is the LBA available to the UK won't be huge; depending on what they withdraw from Malaya, around 50-70 Blenheims and 60 Hurris are about it.

In terms of where to land in India, Vizagapatam is the obvious choice; it's clear terrain. Because it's obvious it will likely be defended by at least 2 Indian Divisions. Chittagong could be an alternative, though that wouldn't trap many troops. We could also skip an invasion of Ceylon if we landed there, and save it for later.

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Thanks for the massed comments.

Dan I take your insights as gospel since you have kicked my &**&^^ with Chinese troops elsewhere on the map!  All those Chinese Hordes attacking in our game, were they freed up by my attacks earlier in the war or were they mobile to start with?  This REALLY provides an answer to the China problem early.  If they were already mobile then we are screwed from the start.  If they were not then we need to be more careful and pick our battles.

2nd ACR I am really beginning to agree with your thinking.  I think we shall wait at least two weeks to launch the overland assault from Rahaeng.  We can seal off Rangoon by using Tavoy and Victoria Point to fly our bombers and fighters while Port Blair can build-up and fly naval search missions.  If we wait the two weeks to attack then it will take at least two more weeks to arrive at Moulmein.  We have to be careful because stopping that juncture with the Chinese units is very important.  Lashio will still need to be taken to prevent that.

Castor has made me remember that as soon as we cut the Burma Road this will throw the Chinese into more supply trouble. 

The North or South argument has merit too.  If we look to move into India to gain a boost to the economy then shouldn't the SAME thought be used in China?  If we work that line of reasoning then, perhaps, a Northern Attack is better.

Heck--I don't know...

John, when our game started I had no clue what to do in China. Then you did two things that forced my hand. First, you told me that you wouldn't advance any Jap troops in China until they were 50% prepped. I took this as a ruse on your part, sending misinformation to disguise your true intention of siphoning off Jap units from China (which it was). (2) You did in fact send units elsewhere and it was clear you didn't want to fight in China. I tried a few offensives in China but failed miserably. I had no place left on the map to fight except Burma, and thought I had better get as many troops there as possible.

Only a handful of Chinese units start out with SEAC HQ designation. But in Big B both sides get alot of Politcal Points, so I was able to transfer many, many units to SEAC. Some marched overland to Lashio, some were air-transported to Burma and India.

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

1. We should attack in North China, I like that. Yenan, then depending on how that goes, Sian, then Honan. Paotow looks like a tempting point grab, if Yenen falls it's completely isolated (and Static). Maintain defensive in South China, with exception of drive on Wenchow.
2. In terms of pulling troops, the two tank Rgts in Home Islands are very cheap, currently about 100 points. Those should be first. The 12th and 13th Bdes are also cheap. 8th Heavy Art Bde is not expensive, and packs a punch. 20th Inf Div. in Korea is very expensive, over 3000 points; but it's experienced, and right now doing nothing. We should probably start prepping many divisions in Manchuria for both Eastern Australia (decoy), and Karachi.
3. We are also going to need PP for aircraft, starting with those Claude units in the Home Islands (when we have enough Zeros), and also including the Kwantung air forces.

I thought about the Kwantung Tank units, but I noticed in this mod that those particular units have AT guns and AA guns attached, which I think will slow the unit down. I wonder if that was on purpose. It's only the Kwantung tanks.

I don't think you have a prayer at anything "south" of Yenen unless you make a huge commitment of Jap troops or your opponents make a mistake. It's easy for the Chinese to defend Sian and Honan. As an Allied player, my advice to you guys is to forget big plans in China and concentrate elsewhere. That's what would worry me anyhow.

[John 3rd]

Thank you Dan for providing your input!  I did actually follow the 50% rule in China but then decided it wasn't worth it at all.  We'll make this time different and take a real shot at northern China and Wengchow.  If we don't succeed then it at least keeps the players honest in China. 

Troops/Aircraft to Pull:
1.  The two tank Rgts in Home Islands--about 100 points each.
2.  8th Heavy Artillery Reg--300 or so
3.  Fighters and Bombers in Manchuria (support the Invasion)--figure about 1,000 PP worth of aircraft
4.  A Claude Daitai from Home Islands--200 PP
5.  Several of those cheap Brigades for deployment to the Pacific for garrison duty--about 700-1,000 PP each
6.  20th Inf Div--3,000 PP

We get 100 per turn in this Mod (3,000 per month). 

One thing we should change immediately our are SS Captains!  I always replace any who are less then 50% on a skill and replace them with much more aggressive leaders.  Those SS will die but, bye golly, they'll take some ships with them.