Defense or withdrawal from Sumatra, Dutch Indies, Java, etc.

[mllange]

When playing the full campaign as the Allies, to what extent should the player try to expend political points to re-assign units and withdraw and re-deploy them from obvious loss situations or is the best course to simply dig in and defend to whatever extent possible and then utilize new forces as they enter the theater to move against the Axis?

[gladiatt]

In my first grand campaign as allies against AI, i used dutch units: i re-assigned those from points like benjaermesin, pontianak, pendjarmin, and so on, and i sthrenghten Java.
The jap AI took 3 month to take Batavia...and never ever took Soerebaya. That was one of the many point that doomed the jap AI.
I dont think a human opponent woold be stalled by such, but it could anyway buy time...and thats what you need at the beginning.

[niceguy2005]

It does depend on your opponent.  If playing the AI, you may be able to hold part of the DEI.

However, if playing a human opponent that outcome is unlikely.  In that case I try to withdraw the Dutch base forces, especially the ones that AREN"T a naval BF.  I also pull out the aviation units and 2-4 garrison units.  Dutch replacements are too few to rebuild much more than that.  I also try to save as many of the planes as I can.

The object is to save a little bit without gutting the Dutch resistance.  The DEI are an important speed bump in slowing down Japan.  In my PBEM I fought it out for Java and even reinforced Tjilitjap with an RCT.  I was trying to get an Aussie Div in with supplies when everything collapsed in early June, IIRC. 

[RUPD3658]

UK 18th Div can be a major speed bump if you get it to Java. In my current game the B-17s made Java into an air fortress. While they were eventually forced out by the KB they tied the KB up assisting in Java and slowed down the Jap advance and cost him dearly. It is now mid April and Java will fall by the end of the month. I am satisfied with this since the defense of Java has tied up the Japs fr 4 months and allowed me to build up strength elsewhere. If Java falls too quickly you risk an invasion of Northern Australia.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

UK 18th Div can be a major speed bump if you get it to Java. In my current game the B-17s made Java into an air fortress. While they were eventually forced out by the KB they tied the KB up assisting in Java and slowed down the Jap advance and cost him dearly. It is now mid April and Java will fall by the end of the month. I am satisfied with this since the defense of Java has tied up the Japs fr 4 months and allowed me to build up strength elsewhere. If Java falls too quickly you risk an invasion of Northern Australia.

I completely agree. One of my former opponents invaded India in Feb 42. One of the best ways I could respond was to beef up Java and force him to divert resources there, as opposed to India. Java is the first place that the allies can seriously make a stand and if they don't make it there it will be Australia or India.

Burma is another place that the allies absolutely have to make a fight of.

Of course, historically speaking, this was the Allied plan, or one of them, to make defense in the DEI that would hold off Japan until mobilization was under way.

[Ken Estes]

If you used 18th Inf Div in Java, did you lose Burma?
 
[in stock WITP] Against AI, Java & Sumatra can be defended by concentrating available air and ground on the Eastern cities, esp Palembang [moving garrison from Tjilitjap] where the crucial first IJN amphib/naval attacks will usually come. Air [LB and TB] at Palembang, Batavia and Soerabaja [and Singapore] can do serious damage to convoys/troopships, esp once a few missions improve experience. They have to go dormant when KB shows up, but KB can only cover one at a time. I keep PT boats and unload the minelayers at Palembang, but most crucial is the concentration of ABDA fleet [incl PoW and Rep] in the Java Sea to hit IJN bombardment and invasion TF against Palembang and Balikpapan. The latter may include the Aussie and NZ warships [even the US CA in Oz] once released from delaying fights for Rabaul. Once IJN LB squadrons base in NW Borneo, the Java Sea is no longer surface ship viable. Loss of Singapore means the same, and I try to time the delay fight in Malaya to ram 100K+ of supplies into Sing before the JA closes in for the siege. Singapore air then is divided between Rangoon and Palembang to make those places viable.
 
In the end, an Aussie Bde + TkRgt then a div or two, plus air when pol points permit [air first from P.I.] must be brought up to complete the securing of Palembang, Batavia & other threatened parts of coast.
 
My latest trial Allies vs. AI resulted in losing only N and E Borneo, saving even Balikpapan; JA industry was then screwed by mid-42 for lack of oil, with Tarakan and Brunei shipping subj to air attrition, half Dutch PT boats.
 
AI will still try to take Celebes, Amboina and Timor, and the ABDA Fleet can perform well out of Amboina if the base has fighter cover, Jolo and Davao being the air bases that threaten most.

[AirGriff]

Take out some base forces where you know you can't put up a fight and move them either to SWPAC or SEA...those little base units are perfect for prepping small bases for better times in India, plus you can use them immediately for patrol squadrons and set up a screen. 
 
Everybody seems to have a different method for withdrawing Dutch air forces.  Over time, the Dutch have a pretty good sting with those outmoded aircraft...at least the Martin's have some range.  The T-IV's are great because they carry torps.  The fighters are next to worthless, in my experience.  The Demon's have good range, but they just don't hold up.  I found the fighters can often be of use as dive bombers, though they only carry 100# bombs...at the very least they send some transports back to port for repairs.  Ah, got off track...I transfered all my patrol squadrons, all the T-IV's, some bombers and some fighters.  I did this over time as the squadrons depleted and the noose tightened...have to make sure the planes have the legs to make it to a friendly command.  I then used the fighters in backwater bases to keep those bloody Nells and Betty's from getting in a free unescorted raid (2E bombers must meet a ratio of some sort to overwhelm a cap unescorted)

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Ken Estes

If you used 18th Inf Div in Java, did you lose Burma?

[in stock WITP] Against AI, Java & Sumatra can be defended by concentrating available air and ground on the Eastern cities, esp Palembang [moving garrison from Tjilitjap] where the crucial first IJN amphib/naval attacks will usually come. Air [LB and TB] at Palembang, Batavia and Soerabaja [and Singapore] can do serious damage to convoys/troopships, esp once a few missions improve experience. They have to go dormant when KB shows up, but KB can only cover one at a time. I keep PT boats and unload the minelayers at Palembang, but most crucial is the concentration of ABDA fleet [incl PoW and Rep] in the Java Sea to hit IJN bombardment and invasion TF against Palembang and Balikpapan. The latter may include the Aussie and NZ warships [even the US CA in Oz] once released from delaying fights for Rabaul. Once IJN LB squadrons base in NW Borneo, the Java Sea is no longer surface ship viable. Loss of Singapore means the same, and I try to time the delay fight in Malaya to ram 100K+ of supplies into Sing before the JA closes in for the siege. Singapore air then is divided between Rangoon and Palembang to make those places viable.

In the end, an Aussie Bde + TkRgt then a div or two, plus air when pol points permit [air first from P.I.] must be brought up to complete the securing of Palembang, Batavia & other threatened parts of coast.

My latest trial Allies vs. AI resulted in losing only N and E Borneo, saving even Balikpapan; JA industry was then screwed by mid-42 for lack of oil, with Tarakan and Brunei shipping subj to air attrition, half Dutch PT boats.

AI will still try to take Celebes, Amboina and Timor, and the ABDA Fleet can perform well out of Amboina if the base has fighter cover, Jolo and Davao being the air bases that threaten most.

I didn't use the 18th in Java, that was another poster. I used an RCT and tried to get in an Australian division.

However, I did lose Burma to a PBEM opponent. I didn't put up much of a fight there actually and that was a mistake. I withdrew from Burma and the next thing I knew I was fighting in India. [X(]

[Oldguard1970]

Nim8or - You can do whatever you want vs. the poor AI.  Whatever mistakes you make will not set you back too much.  Now -- play against a human and the whole situation changes.  There are no certain rules.  Niceguy offers a good set of advice, but you have to keep your opponent in mind. 
 
The Japanese player can take what he wants.  The Allied player must prevent that from happening too quickly and too widely.   That makes the opening game a great deal of fun.  Will the Japanese player risk an attack with "just enough force" knowing that it might be stalled by the clever redeployment of a small LCU or the right aircraft strike force or a surface combat TF?  Will he, instead, employ ample mass with proper coverage, but give up time?  It's exciting!
 
I wish you more luck than I am having against a Japanese player who is rompimg about with major success.  I savour my minor successes while I what for the reinforcements to arrive and turn the tide.

[mllange]

Thanks for the fantastic response and great suggestions, now I'm itching to start a game (or three) to try several alternatives just to see what kind of impact different ideas would have and determine what success I can have. Still trying to get my arms around this one and to get over analysis paralysis; I haven't tried PBEM yet, call me chicken! [:'(]

[Feinder]

Most valuable units are the base forces.  You're going to be critically short of them early game.  The reason to NOT pull out the Dutch Naval BFs by the way, is because those units will "upgrade" to fixed (immoble guns).  You -can- evac them, just be advised to plant them on a coastal base or wherever you want them permanantly, because when they pull replacements, the upgrade their CDs to 150mm fixed guns.  Having an RDN BF glued to the highway north or Townsville because the guns upgraded will definately bring on a big "Doh!".
 
-F-
 
 

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

It does depend on your opponent.  If playing the AI, you may be able to hold part of the DEI.

However, if playing a human opponent that outcome is unlikely.  In that case I try to withdraw the Dutch base forces, especially the ones that AREN"T a naval BF.  I also pull out the aviation units and 2-4 garrison units.  Dutch replacements are too few to rebuild much more than that.  I also try to save as many of the planes as I can.

The object is to save a little bit without gutting the Dutch resistance.  The DEI are an important speed bump in slowing down Japan.  In my PBEM I fought it out for Java and even reinforced Tjilitjap with an RCT.  I was trying to get an Aussie Div in with supplies when everything collapsed in early June, IIRC. 

I'll be honest, in my current PBEM there will be no holding the DEI for my opponant, since he already knows what I sent against them I'll clue you in. 5 Divisions, 3 brigades, 3 armor regiments, and numerous engineer and artillery units, plus I still have stuff in reserve if it is needed.

The AI never commits that many forces to Java. I have a feeling most players do similar to what I have done.

I guess the point is that against a determined human opponant, holding any part of the DEI is all but impossible. It really depends on how badly the Japanese player wants it as to when it falls, not if it falls.

[Hornblower]

As the allied player you need to bleed the IJN/IJA air force...  hold java so long as it serves you.. don't go nuts.. but dont run away either..

[Sardaukar]

A usually play BigB scen with Subchaser stock map.

I can usually stop AI cold in Java and tie it up badly in Philippines. I use Dutch shipping to evacuate Base Forces from places I don't need to defend to Batavia and Soerabaja. Brit 18th Div I rush straight to Mandalay, IMHO it is not worth to transfer the (only, for a while) main fighting force from India to Java. I have had good experiences with airlifting PA units from Philippines to Kendari, to make it very hard to take. Remember that also patrol planes can make troop transport flights in a pinch.

With both Batavia and Soerabaja topped with 250+ aviation support and built up airfields, you create very good mutually supportive defense in Java. Then I move air units from PI to those bases, B-17s are very good ship killers and they are main IJN carrier killers in my AI games. 4E bombers do not require CAP/Escort check and become deadly after they reach 75+ experience. I also have had good success with Chinese Il-4s, surprisingly. I move them to couple of southern China bases, put on Naval Attack at 10k with 10% search. After few weeks they start to hit Japanese shipping south of HK very regularly.

In my recent game I tried to be very aggressive with Surface forces in DEI. Lost Several cruisers and DDs either in surface combat or when KB arrived. Also lost 3 cruisers in Rabaul, but managed to maul one invasion TF badly. About first thing I do when I have PPs is to switch AUS 7th Brigade to SW/SPac and rush it to Rabaul. I still barely hold Rabaul and have another brigade on the way. AUS & NZ navies do not like me gotten their cruisers sunk, tho..[:'(]

[dennishe]

If I have enough time, I reinforce Java with the 18th UK division and two divisions from OZ (need to spend some PPs). With these three divisions at Java you can keep it for quite a while. During this time the Japanese cannot get any oil and resources from the area and probably won't go to Burma overseas (I'm not sure about AI though). Bring in the torpedo planes from the British carriers and the Japanese will have to trow everything they have at Java. Agains AI you will definitevely be able to hold it. Against a human player, you are probably able to stall him for a couple of weeks or even months. Your units will be lost (unless you pull some out in the very end), but it will take a while before the Japanese troops are fit for another fight again. As a Japanese player I therefore always try to take Java asap, before the 18th div can be there. 2ndACR tought me this the hard way...

[wwengr]

ORIGINAL: nim8or

When playing the full campaign as the Allies, to what extent should the player try to expend political points to re-assign units and withdraw and re-deploy them from obvious loss situations or is the best course to simply dig in and defend to whatever extent possible and then utilize new forces as they enter the theater to move against the Axis?

Consider:

• Dutch Rifle Squads are relatively weak Rifle Squads with Anti-Armor of 5 and Anti-Soft of 21. They never upgrade, so later in the war, they are among the very weak.
• The replacement rate of Dutch Rifle Squads is only 11.
• Dutch LS Squads are even weaker Anti-Armor of 5 and Anti-Soft of 18 and a replacement rate of only one.
• Dutch Sapper Squads are the weakest engineer squad in the game (except Chinese) and have a replacement rate of only one.
• Dutch Base Force units have Rifle Squads in their TOE, so will use up some of the few available replacements

If you withdraw, Dutch Infantry units, you'll end up using supplies and such to rebuild relatively weak, low value units. Stand and fight with these. The only artillery units worth "saving" are the AA units. The devices have a high replacement rate and they can be used as any AA unit would be. CD gun units are OK, but do you really need them late in the war? Save Base forces. One rule for the Allies: even though you get many base forces later, you can never have too much. Rag tag Base force units can be use to tend rear area training/transfer/logistics bases allowing you to move forward larger elements to buld and tend big powerful forward bases. ABDA HQ... I've never bothered.

Save ground units by changing their HQ when they have been depleted from a fight, then transporting a small slice out to Oz that can be the basis to rebuild the unit.

Dutch air untis are definately worth saving. The ships should be carefully employed as part of the fleet out of Australia.

The DEI strategy is to fight as long as possible. Use PP's to move select higher quality ground units into your selected bastion.

This may be gamey, but you can transfer ABDA Air Units to Southwest Pacific (or whatever non-restricted HQ you like) at very low cost. I will change one under strength unit to the new HQ, then Disband other understrength units into them. The Disbanded units re-appear as SWPAC units in Australia in 90 days.

Example: GVT-1 through GVT-8 have three of eight Do 24k-2 each. Changing one to SWPAC costs 12 PP. If you then Disband two others that are ABDA into the one that you changed, you get a Squadron with nine Do 24k-2 patrol planes that are all SWPAC at the PP cost of only three planes. (If I recall correctly... Even better, 90 days later, the disbanded unit shows up in Sydney upgraded to PBY's)