political events in Global Glory

Gary Grigsby’s World at War is back with a whole new set of features. World at War: A World Divided still gives complete control over the production, research and military strategy for your side, but in this new updated version you’ll also be able to bring spies into the mix as well as neutral country diplomacy, variable political events and much more. Perhaps the largest item is the ability to play a special Soviet vs. Allies scenario that occurs after the end of World War II.

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SGT Rice
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RE: political events in Global Glory

Post by SGT Rice »

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead
Personally, I like the idea a lot. I see play variability (maybe 50% of games have Finland, 50% don't) and a pretty good and simple mechanic for having Finland as a staging area, at least threatening Karelia which is perfectly historical, yet keep the Fins offensive potential down in keeping with their lack of overall enthusiasm (refusal to attack Leningrad, for example).


Sorry to raise an additional point, but here it is. The Germans can do a lot more than threaten Karelia; under your final implementation the German player can readily send a dozen German units to Finland if they have transports to ship them; allowing them to decisively flank/isolate Leningrad. Later in the game it would allow a similar force to hover above Russia's northern flank, secure in a Finnish fortress.

This should be problematic for two reasons; (1) the Finns weren't likely to allow a German army larger than their own into their country, and (2) the terrain/infrastructure simply wouldn’t allow army group-size formations to maneuver and fight; it’s mostly trackless, old-growth forests.

Earlier I had included a +40% event modifier for each German unit in Finland ... so that if the Germans had 3 units in the country then they faced a 20% chance of a Finnish armistice. I realize this would also create the requirement to code a "retreat" of German units out of the country if the armistice event triggers, but it would nicely round out a fairly realistic implementation of Finland's participation in WWII.

If your still averse to that option (or even if you like it), then another option to put the brakes on free-wheeling major offensives in/out of Scandinavia would be 2MP land borders. I’ve played way to many games in which major ground campaigns raged back and forth across Norway, Sweden and Finland as if they were the Russian steppes. If 2MP borders were placed between Norway/Sweden, Norway/Finland, Sweden/Finland, Finland/Karelia … it would go some distance toward limiting that kind of nonsense.
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Lucky1
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RE: political events in Global Glory

Post by Lucky1 »

Hmmm. The 2 mp proposal is interesting.... and simple! Might one consider simply lowering Finnish volatility to 2, dropping the size of her army (but adding insta-infantry if attacked), and implementing 2mp borders in Scandanavia? I don't know whether one would keep the winter war event....

This would roughly approximate Finland's actual role in the war, and would make it more costly for WA/Russian romps across Scandanavia. At the same time, it does include a sligh possibility of Finland joining if the war in Russia is going particularly well - it is easy to back a winner (Italy's DOW on France!). More musings will surely follow....
WanderingHead
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RE: political events in Global Glory

Post by WanderingHead »

There won't be a 2MP border, because it requires a graphics (map) change.

I won't retreat German units from Finland, very much too out of character for the game.

If there is a problem with Germans flanking Leningrad we need another solution (I'm not personally sure that it would be a huge problem).
Marshall Art
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RE: political events in Global Glory

Post by Marshall Art »

I am not sure I really understand the point of raising the importance of Finland way above its historical impact - why do we need rules for Finnish units if there are none for other Axis or Allied nation's troops? Just because Finnish troops were not deployed outside Finland and Russia, don't we should take care of Romanian Infantry defending France or Italian Artillery attacking Kazan? I have not heared of Indian troops invading Normany either...

I think that all players should be free to put their units where they want them as the new surrender rules (Romania, I also hope Hungary and so on) will take care of great imbalances.
WanderingHead
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RE: political events in Global Glory

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Art
I am not sure I really understand the point of raising the importance of Finland way above its historical impact - why do we need rules for Finnish units if there are none for other Axis or Allied nation's troops?

I agree. Where does that leave you on this proposal? (modified slightly from post 13, event probability reduced a little)
ORIGINAL: WanderingHead
1) Finland starts with zero units.
2) Finland sprouts 3 insta-infantry the first time it is attacked, 1 insta-infantry the second time it is attacked (this would be configured as a total limit and a per attack consumption, so 3,2,1,0 would not be possible, for example)
3) Finland is a fortress until captured.
4) event 1: Winter war - give Finland 1 infantry + 1 militia
5) event 2: Finland joins Germany if Ger at war with Rus and USA not at war, 40% the turn of war, 20%per turn thereafter.
6) event 3: Finland becomes neutral , if ungarrisoned and USA at war, 0% base, +25% for Allied control of Baltic States, +25% for Allied control of East Prussia, +25% for Allied control of Norway, +25% for Allied control of Sweden.

Could still add Norway into the mix similar to today, and make the event probability higher if Norway is German.

ORIGINAL: Marshall Art
I think that all players should be free to put their units where they want them as the new surrender rules (Romania, I also hope Hungary and so on) will take care of great imbalances.

Yeah, I like the consistency (as always). Recall that Italy's surrender was changed a patch or two ago, so that they only surrender if they were not attacked as a neutral. The same can apply to all neutrals with factories: if they join because they are attacked, they will not surrender; if they join without being attacked (typical of Italy, Spain, Hungary, Rumania) then they can surrender (units removed from map like Italian surrender).

This would encourage you to keep those units close to home, since if home falls they disappear anyway.

In practice, as I see it these surrenders mean that Germany collapses a little faster near the end. Even though Rumania can only do militia today, I know that it would still impact my play to some extent since I tend to use eastern militia along the Atlantic wall. Which would not be so likely with these changes (or you go through massive reshuffling once the Soviets get close to Rumania).
Marshall Art
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RE: political events in Global Glory

Post by Marshall Art »

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead
1) Finland starts with zero units.
2) Finland sprouts 3 insta-infantry the first time it is attacked, 1 insta-infantry the second time it is attacked (this would be configured as a total limit and a per attack consumption, so 3,2,1,0 would not be possible, for example)
3) Finland is a fortress until captured.
4) event 1: Winter war - give Finland 1 infantry + 1 militia
5) event 2: Finland joins Germany if Ger at war with Rus and USA not at war, 40% the turn of war, 20%per turn thereafter.
6) event 3: Finland becomes neutral , if ungarrisoned and USA at war, 0% base, +25% for Allied control of Baltic States, +25% for Allied control of East Prussia, +25% for Allied control of Norway, +25% for Allied control of Sweden.


Could still add Norway into the mix similar to today, and make the event probability higher if Norway is German.

1-3) I would place the 3 Infantry right from the start and change rule 6) to:

event 3: Finland becomes neutral, if garrisoned with less then 3 Infantry and USA at war, 0% base, +25% for Allied control of Baltic States, +25% for Allied control of East Prussia, +25% for Allied control of Norway, +25% for Allied control of Sweden, -25% if Norway is German controlled .
The fins would likely be more reluctant to leave the Axis if they have German troops behind their backs in Norway.

I would also add a WA WR penalty if Russia conquers Finland right after German DOW which could happen before Finland joins the Axis.
WanderingHead
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RE: political events in Global Glory

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Art
ORIGINAL: WanderingHead
1) Finland starts with zero units.
2) Finland sprouts 3 insta-infantry the first time it is attacked, 1 insta-infantry the second time it is attacked (this would be configured as a total limit and a per attack consumption, so 3,2,1,0 would not be possible, for example)
3) Finland is a fortress until captured.
4) event 1: Winter war - give Finland 1 infantry + 1 militia
5) event 2: Finland joins Germany if Ger at war with Rus and USA not at war, 40% the turn of war, 20%per turn thereafter.
6) event 3: Finland becomes neutral , if ungarrisoned and USA at war, 0% base, +25% for Allied control of Baltic States, +25% for Allied control of East Prussia, +25% for Allied control of Norway, +25% for Allied control of Sweden.

1-3) I would place the 3 Infantry right from the start and change rule 6) to:

event 3: Finland becomes neutral, if garrisoned with less then 3 Infantry and USA at war, 0% base, +25% for Allied control of Baltic States, +25% for Allied control of East Prussia, +25% for Allied control of Norway, +25% for Allied control of Sweden, -25% if Norway is German controlled .

The reason I want the garrison restriction is the practical reason - if Finland becomes neutral what do you do with German units left in Finland? I want a garrison requirement (any land unit, not the mil/inf/para/mech subset) because I don't want to have to deal with any German units left in Finland.
ORIGINAL: Marshall Art
I would also add a WA WR penalty if Russia conquers Finland right after German DOW which could happen before Finland joins the Axis.

I don't think they could do it, with 1 inf + 1 mil +3 insta-infantry + 1 insta-militia all in Finland to defend, and Finland a fortress, the Russians could not take Finland without actively preparing for it.
WanderingHead
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RE: political events in Global Glory

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: SGT Rice
The Germans can do a lot more than threaten Karelia; under your final implementation the German player can readily send a dozen German units to Finland if they have transports to ship them; allowing them to decisively flank/isolate Leningrad. Later in the game it would allow a similar force to hover above Russia's northern flank, secure in a Finnish fortress.

I'm thinking that the fortress should be removed, and increase Finnish insta-infantry to compensate.

We can allow Finland to become neutral with a German garrison as long as we make the *nation* neutral but leave the *region* German controlled if there is a garrison. We can further ensure that the Finnish insta-militia only sprouts if the region Finland is controlled by the same player as the nation Finland.

That may be esoteric sounding, but what it means is that Finland leaves Germany and no longer helps defend its own region (it no longer cares if Allied forces enter to remove the Germans).

This leaves the German with a choice once the USA is at war: keep a German garrison in Finland (ensuring control of the region, but without the Fins to help defend it) or remove the German garrison (Finland may become neutral, but at least the Fins will continue to defend it for free, no need to commit German troops).

In this scenario the neutral Finland should remain at least Balanced, maybe Leaning-Axis, so that Germany likes the idea of a resource producing region that it doesn't have to be garrisoned by Germany.

Note that air units don't count as garrison, and if ungarrisoned when Finland turns neutral any air units will indeed retreat, and can fly over the Baltic Sea.

My only qualm here is that it is getting a little bit subtle ...
WanderingHead
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RE: political events in Global Glory

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead
Note that air units don't count as garrison, and if ungarrisoned when Finland turns neutral any air units will indeed retreat, and can fly over the Baltic Sea.

The significance of this (in my mind) is that the Germans can withdraw their garrison, secure in the Fins defending the region themselves as long as Finland remains an Axis country. But the Germans can leave air units in Finland. If/when the Fins declare neutrality, the region would become Neutral and the German air units would fly home (retreat).
Marshall Art
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RE: political events in Global Glory

Post by Marshall Art »

Germany’s surrender

While reading the discussion about a Germany surrender after an A-Bomb (which I would reject) I came to think of a more flexible rule much like the Russian surrender rule. I can be argued that a continued retreat from key European areas would have made more an more key figures in the German Army believe that the war is lost and thus a surrender should rather occur at the negotiation table than due to total self-annihilation.


 Based on the events of July 20, 1944 (assassination attempt on Hitler – watch the new movie with Tom Cruise) a similar event could be installed in the game:
 
If the following regions are controlled by the Allies at the end of a turn, the following probability will be applied to the Momentum (as in Russian surrender rule):
 
W. France, S. France, Romania: 2%

E. France, TLC, Denmark, W. Poland, Hungary: 3%

Austria, Prague: 5%

W. Germany, E. Germany: 20%
 
This makes a total chance of Germany surrendering of 21% if only the 4 core regions remain controlled, of 31% if only E. and W. Germany remain defended (much like it happens currently) per turn. This will encourage the German player to not simply retreat into his fortress but defend the gains of 1939-41.

As Germany succeeds in stopping the Allies at some point, the probability would go down due to the momentum loss.

  Of course, Germany might continue to resist with only E. Germany or W. Germany remaining, which might have happened, at a 49% chance. This would force both Allied camps to contribute to the German surrender which would balance out the ww3 showdown possibly.

I might have omitted some details rearding the calculation but honestly I rather wanted to throw out the idea before investing an evening into math...

We only need a rule to surrender Germany if both E. and W.Germany are lost.[;)]
WanderingHead
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RE: political events in Global Glory

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Art
Germany’s surrender

I'm not too excited about randomizing the German (or Japanese) surrender.

Even the USSR/WA surrenders I pulled back so they can happen only after AV. So if you play with AV on and complete the game, you will not see these surrenders occur and they have no effect.

Clearly the amount of randomness people will tolerate would be a matter of personal taste. I've been willing to add it (my personal taste), but some people will say they prefer the "chess-like" experience of very little randomness at the macro (game changing) level. So I've tried to compromise.

Of course, like anyone, I'd be steaming out the ears if my Russians surrendered with only a 5% event fire probability ...
Marshall Art
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RE: political events in Global Glory

Post by Marshall Art »

Another possibility would be not to create a surrender rule but a decline in either population, factory multiplier or cut off any resource trade with neutrals if Germany retreats too far. It would keep Germany in the game but should hurt the Axis player enough to make him think twice. Plummeting morale due to the retreats, war tiredness and/or the Neutrals slowly moving into the winning Allied camp might be a rationale for such a rule.
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GKar
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RE: political events in Global Glory

Post by GKar »

This may be the intention, but I think that forcing Germany to face the Allies on every front will make them surrender earlier because of more losses. Retreating into Fortress Germany is mainly done because it conserves units.
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