New Naval Combat System Model

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Hey Guys,
              The answer is simple to this problem, there are those gamers who want a faithful reproduction of the board game with no exceptions to the rules not broke don't fix it.

       There are also gamers who want to play it with improved rules having found faults through play testing the game.


      There are also gamers who want to upgrade the game using the full range of possibility the computer brings to the game, more in depth game play,more realistic combat simulation on land and at sea.
There are other games on here that are doing just that by adding Improved versions Admirals edition War in the pacific is a perfect example.


So the answer is allow options in the programming for basic level,intermediate level and advanced level game play use the power of the computer and let the programmers make this game outstanding.

               Regards, Hellfirejet.

[eske]

Spot on, hellfire.
A very good idea to have a basic version (close to Eia), an intermediate ruleset and an advanced ruleset. Better than a long list of separate optional rules. (Will be very hard for this forum to agree on what goes where tho').
 
You obviously are passionate and has a lot of knowledge of the naval warfare of this periode, so the weakness of the original EiA of course jumps right into your face: The too simple naval rules. But you should know that the land warfare rules are one of the things that made this FtF boardgame so popular. And your postulate about super-sized stacks doesn't cover the land part at all. And that has always been the focus of this game, so in this sense, you picked the wrong computer implemented boardgame. But don't go away...
 
Your comments about naval is unfortunately accurate. A substansial improvement is possible and several attempts does allready exist. (The "official" AH General, EiH 3, 4 and 5 plus countless houserules).
The tricky part is not to increase the realisme. It is to make it fit into the "EiA world model" in a lot of ways: Not disrupt the economic system, maintain a reasonable balance of power between the nations, hit the level of details in the game, support the flow of the game and more...
All in all to make it a worthwhile and interesting part of the game, without overshadowing the land action, which is - after all - the central part of the history of this periode and of this game too.
 
But keep the good stuff coming. It can only improve things [:)]
 
/eske

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Hello Eske,
You are correct I'm very passionate about the naval side of the game, put simply the rules are wrong on almost every aspect of the naval war.
To start most confrontations were with squadron size fleets 6 or 7 ships at most heavy and light combined, most battles were inconclusive, ships damaged but very few sunk! I see no point in building heavys that take 18 months to build then just loose them in some stupid combat die roll.
Also how come GB only has Nelson as Admiral he only served as Admiral for just over 2 years and was commander of the mediterranean fleet, and only deputised with the main channel fleet. What of Admirals Cornwallis who commanded the channel fleet and Calder.

I concede I don't know much about the land forces but I'm here to learn and improve my gaming in all aspects of play.

Regards, Hellfirejet.

[Marshall Ellis]

I'm not opposed to adding options like these mentioned above BUT something like this but it would be after a "Classic Scenario" and IP play if we are able to add those. Great posts! Keep them coming!
 

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

I'm new to the game as I said previously, but what bothers me more than anything about the naval combat system is the following points.

The game says that the ships are lost after combat, is this supposed to mean they are sunk this is total rubbish, very few wooden ships actually sink! at the battle of Trafalgar only 1 heavy was sunk due to an explosion, I could understand it if it said ships were captured or severely damaged but certainly not sunk.

Lost ships as the combat resolution states, should be re worded as damaged or captured, in a first round off combat, there after damaged ships values could be half there full combat strenght in any further combat rounds.

If something similar is possible to implement into the Naval combat simulation I'm sure all the gamers here that are interested in the Naval side off the game would be delighted.

There should also be a stacking limit introduce, no more than 3 heavy fleets per side in a battle.

As for the cost and build times, these also have to be reduced, 12 months maximum for heavies is historical correct on average.

[Marshall Ellis]

Have you seen the EiH 3.0 naval combat system model?
 
 

[Mardonius]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Have you seen the EiH 3.0 naval combat system model?

Could you post it for review? I have looked at the EiH 5.2 Naval system but do note some things that are not clear and will cause confusion... That said, there are a great deal of good ideas therein.

Thank you
Mardnonius

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Hi Marshall,

As yet I have not seen E I H 3 rules changes, will investigate further.

[Marshall Ellis]

Apologize for the format but here are the EiH3.0 naval combat rules...
 
[font="times new roman"]1.1     Naval Combat Step[/font]
[font="times new roman"]These rules cover all naval combat caused by interception (6.5.4 above) or by initiation.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.1     Who May Fight[/font]
[font="times new roman"]If enemy fleets of more than one Major Power occupy a sea area, blockade box or port, only one Major Power's stack can be attacked (for this purpose, all Major Powers who have declared combined movement and are at war with the attacker are considered to be one[/i] Major Power). Other Major Powers in the sea area, blockade box or port can be ignored (even with combined movement declared, if not at war with the attacker) See 6.5.8 for an exception.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.1.1     Naval Attacker/Defender Determination[/font]
[font="times new roman"]If there is more than one enemy stack present, the “attacker” decides which will be the “defender. “ The attacker is the phasing side if he initiates the combat or the non-phasing intercepting side if the combat is caused by an interception. A stack consisting of Major Powers with combined movement and all at war with the attackers/defenders is considered one Major Power. The defender (at the attacker's option) comprises any one[/i] defender's stack (which may contain ships of more than one Major Power) that is present.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.1.2     Who is an Enemy[/font]
[font="times new roman"]A stack may only attack another stack if at war with the Major Power controlling that stack, or[/i], if at war with a Major Power owning corps being (or that could be) transported by fleets of that stack, or[/i], if at war with one or more of the fleets involved in combined movement, or[/i], if the defending stack is supplying forces that are at war with the attacking stack. In all but the first case, the attacker's stack need not be at war with the Major Power owning the transporting fleets or at war with all fleets with combined movement, and, if not, the attacker has the option to either: [/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]Attack without[/i] a declaration of war (no political point loss for a declaration of war) although political points are still normally gained or lost for winning or losing the battle[/font][1][font="times new roman"].[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]Or, immediately[/i] declare war (even if operating under an enforced peace period, which can be ignored in this case, although the other restrictions in 4.4.3 and 4.4.4 still apply and lose the requisite political points (see 4.4.1) for each[/i] separate declaration of war. No allies may be called with these declarations of war.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2     Possible Evasions[/font]
[font="times new roman"]The Major Power upon which an attack is declared may attempt to evade unless the attack is caused by an interception or is in a port or blockade box. If the evasion is unsuccessful a combat will be fought. If the evasion is successful, the phasing player may attempt to attack any other enemy stack remaining in the area.  No evasion attempt is possible if the combat is the result of interception.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.1     Evasion Procedure[/font]
[font="times new roman"]To attempt evasion the commander of the evading stack rolls a D6. If a “1” or “2” is rolled, the non-phasing stack evades combat and is retreated according to the naval retreat after combat rules (for purposes of retreat, treat the evading side as if it were the loser of a combat and the attacking side as if it were the winner). If evasion is unsuccessful, proceed to step one.[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]There are no political points gained or lost for a successful evasion.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.2     Step One - Selections Of Naval Tactical Chits[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Both players select a naval tactical chit. Both attacker and defender select from an identical set of chits: melee, line of bearing, line of battle, lozenge or doubling. In the case of a stack containing ships of more than one Major Power, the Major Power with the most ships participating in the combat present (either its own or its controlled minors) is considered to be the commander for that stack in the battle, if equal number resolve with unmodified D6 roll.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]NOTE: The melee tactic may not be used, by any other Major Power, until it has first been used by Great Britain with a stack under the command of the Nelson leader.[/font][/i]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.3     Step Two-Reveal Chits[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Both players now reveal chosen chits and cross-index them on the Naval Combat Chart. [/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.4     Step Three-Reveal Forces/Morale Levels[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Both players reveal their forces and determine final morale levels.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.4.1     Declare Force Composition[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Both players simultaneously reveal the exact size and composition of their fleet counters.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.4.2     Determine Final Morale Levels[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Both players determine their morale level by adding the morale of the individual ships present and dividing by the total number of ships in the stack. Naval Morale is as follows: British 4.0, Dutch 3.5, Egyptian 2.5, Austrian and Prussian 2.0 and all others a morale value of 3.0. Danish ships have a morale value of 3.5 in the sea areas bordering Denmark, Norway and Sweden and in ports and blockade boxes in these three countries, 3.0 otherwise.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.5     Step Four-Find Combat Table[/font]
[font="times new roman"]The Naval Combat Chart refers each player to a series of combat tables on the Combat Resolution Chart. These tables are used in the same fashion as for land combat.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.5.1     Melee Tables To Use[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Until the melee force closes, the first set of combat resolution on the Naval Combat Chart is used. Once the side selecting melee has closed with the enemy, it uses the second set of combat resolution tables. The Naval Combat Chart indicates the D6 roll required to close after each tactical round. [/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]A purely[/i] British naval force commanded by Nelson may subtract 1 or 2 from the D6 roll for closing at the option of the controlling player. However, this number must[/i] then be applied as a positive modifier to Nelson's chances of becoming a casualty if the roll is above 7, and negative modifier is the roll is below 7[/font][2][font="times new roman"] (see 7.3.8.5).[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.6     Step Five-Combat Resolution[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Procedure is identical to that in land combat, with the D6 role modifiers potentially being: the tactical modifiers (see the Naval Combat Chart), the Odds in numbers, Multiple Major Powers, Multiple minor powers, force containing only light ships (6.2.2) and heavy ship superiority (6.2.1). Any casualties inflicted represent ships that are damaged. Damaged ships may not participate in further rounds of combat. the modifiers for odds in numbers should be recalculated, if necessary, each round.[/font]




[font="times new roman"]Odds in numbers[/font]

[font="times new roman"]at least 2-1[/font]

[font="times new roman"]at least 3-1[/font]

[font="times new roman"]at least 4-1[/font]


[font="times new roman"]Modifier for the largest force[/font]

[font="times new roman"]+1[/font]

[font="times new roman"]+2[/font]

[font="times new roman"]+3[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Note: Odds in number modifier only counts factors participating in the combat.[/font][/i]
·         [font="times new roman"]-1 modifier if ships of more than one Major Power are fighting on the same side in a naval combat.[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]-1 modifier if ships of more than one minor country (in addition to one Major Power) are participating on the same side in a naval combat. [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Final modifiers to the Naval Combat Table may never exceed -2/+2[/font][3][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.7     Step Six-Victory And Defeat[/font]
[font="times new roman"]A side in a naval combat is defeated when all of its ships are damaged, or when its cumulative morale loss reaches or exceeds it final morale level (the force is then said to be broken). The battle immediately ends with the other declared the victor. If one side is eliminated and the other side breaks, it is considered to be a draw. This may occur at the end of any round of combat.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.7.1     Continuing Battles[/font]
[font="times new roman"]If, at the end of a combat round, neither side has been defeated the battle continues and both players repeat the sequence commencing at step 5. [/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.7.2     Inconclusive Battles[/font]
[font="times new roman"]If after three rounds of combat, neither side has been defeated the battle ends inconclusively. Neither side is defeated and neither is declared the victor. There is no continuation of the combat.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.7.3     Political Point Changes[/font]
[font="times new roman"]For each fleet participating on the victorious side of a naval combat, the controlling Major Power gains "+1" political point and for each fleet participating on the losing side, the controlling Major Power loses "-1" political point (draws have no political point effects). The maximum political points that a Major Power can gain or lose is +3/-3 political points.  If there is no victor, no adjustments are made. No[/i] political points are gained/lost if the victor has lost[/i] more[/i] ships than the loser.[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]If the NELSON leader commanded the victorious side, they gain “+1” extra political point.[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]If the NELSON leader commanded the losing side, they lose “-1” extra political point.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.8     Step Seven-General Chase[/font]
[font="times new roman"]The victor in any open sea combat may declare an general chase, similar to the pursuit after a land battle. The effect of a general chase is determined by a D6 roll as determined on the Naval General Chase Table. Find the victorious side’s total morale loss on the table and roll once on the combat resolution table as indicated. Note that only undamaged heavy and light ships may participate in the general chase.
Note also that a force using the "line of battle" tactic in the preceding battle must[/i] subtract 1 from their general chase roll. Inflict only the indicated casualties on the fleets and ignore any indicated morale loss. Any ships “hit” during a general chase become damaged ships captured (Step Nine) by the “chasing” forces.[/font]




[font="times new roman"]Victor’s Morale Loss:[/font]

[font="times new roman"]0-0.5[/font]

[font="times new roman"]0.6-1.0[/font]

[font="times new roman"]1.1-2.5[/font]

[font="times new roman"]2.6-3.5[/font]

[font="times new roman"]3.6+[/font]


[font="times new roman"]Roll once on table:[/font]

[font="times new roman"]5-1[/font]

[font="times new roman"]4-1[/font]

[font="times new roman"]3-1[/font]

[font="times new roman"]2-1[/font]

[font="times new roman"]1-1[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.8.1     General Chase and Port Retreats[/font]
[font="times new roman"]If the naval combat takes place in a port, the attacking fleets (win or lose) must[/i] always retreat to the port's blockade box, and the defending fleets remain in the port (no general chase).[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.9     Step Eight-Naval Retreat and [/font][font="times new roman"]Naval Pursuit[/font]
[font="times new roman"]If neither side is declared the victor, both forces may retreat or remain the sea zone and no general chase or naval pursuit is allowed. An intercepted fleet which has won[/i] a battle may continue to move with any remaining movement points.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.9.1     Sea Area Retreats and Pursuits[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]The naval combat loser retreats all fleets (keeping in a stack) that were in the combat to the nearest[/i] unblockaded home nation port, or[/i] an ally's unblockaded port, (with access permission), or[/i] unblockaded port of a minor Free State, Conquered or Kingdom, within five movement points (retreating player's choice if more than one possible port is equally close). Some, none or all of the victorious fleet(s) may pursue, by following the losing fleets and blockade that[/i] port. [/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]If no eligible port is available, the loser retreats his stack five movement points towards the nearest friendly port (as defined above).  Some, none or all of the victorious fleet(s) may pursue to follow the losing fleets to the same sea area though this will not result in further naval combat this phasing Major Power’s Naval Phase.[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]Retreating or pursuing fleets may not be intercepted.[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]A fleet may neither retreat nor pursue into or through a sea area north of the ice line during winter or into or through the Dardanelles sea area without the permission of the Major Power controlling Constantinople (if any). [/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.9.2     Blockade Box Retreats And Pursuits[/font]
[font="times new roman"]If the naval combat takes place in a blockade box the loser must[/i] retreat to that port, if and only if, the combat resulted from the movement of the loser's stack from that port, and in any other case must[/i] retreat in accordance with sea area retreat rules. Pursuit is the same as a sea area pursuit. EXCEPTION: Since movement between a blockade box and its port is free, the victor (even if the phasing side with all movement expended) in a blockade box naval combat may, if the port is friendly or with access permission, move into the port following the naval combat.[/i][/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.10     Step Nine-Capturing Ships[/font]
[font="times new roman"]After an open sea or blockade box combat, damaged ships are not automatically eliminated from play. The victor gains control of all the defeated side's damaged ships, as well as retaining possession of his own damaged ships. In the case of no victor, each side retains its own damaged ships. The damaged ships must now attempt to return to a friendly port. The destination of all damaged ships must[/i] be stated before any dice are rolled.[/font][4]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.10.1     Damaged Ships returning to Port[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]A side possessing damaged ships must[/i] immediately choose a port (or ports) to which to return them. Any controlled home nation, Conquered, Free State or Kingdom port owned by the player or by permission to any port controlled by a Major Power ally, may be selected. For each damaged ship, a D6 is rolled: if the distance to the port in movement points is greater than or equal to the D6 roll the damaged ship is sunk. (Permanently eliminated) Regardless of the distance to port a roll of “1” always sinks a damaged ship and a roll of “6” always means that the ship successfully reaches port. A damaged ship which successfully reaches port is a termed a damaged vessel and[/font][font="times new roman"] must[/i] be repaired before it can be used at sea again. Damaged ships do not need an escort, and move immediately (without requiring a fleet counter, and are immune to interception) to the chosen port. [/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]All Free State damaged vessels are still owned by the Free State (if on the victorious side). But when the Free State changes control the former controlling Major Power has the option to change the damaged vessels to its own, if it controls the port where the damaged vessels are situated. If the port is allied controlled it is the allied Major Power that decides whether the former controlling Major Power gains the damaged vessels or the minor country retains control.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.2.11     Step Ten -Consolidation Of Losses[/font]
[font="times new roman"]After ships lost in combat are removed, excess fleet counters (those without ships) are removed from the map. No political points are lost for removing these empty fleets. If during naval combat or as a result of transfer, a fleet is left without ships, it is removed from the map and must[/i] be repurchased during an Economic Phase to be brought back into the game. If NELSON is with a stack in which all ships and fleets are eliminated by naval combat, NELSON becomes a prisoner of the victorious side in the naval combat.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.3     Blockade Battles[/font]
[font="times new roman"]When a naval combat occurs in a blockade box between the blockaded force and the blockading force, the combat is resolved similarly to open sea combat except that no tactical chits are chosen. Instead, the following table indicates which combat tables are consulted on the Combat Resolution Chart:[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Blockade Battle Combat Chart[/font]




[font="times new roman"]Blockading force: [/font]

[font="times new roman"]5-2[/font]

[font="times new roman"]5-2[/font]

[font="times new roman"]5-2[/font]


[font="times new roman"]Blockaded/Relieving force:[/font]

[font="times new roman"]5-1[/font]

[font="times new roman"]5-1[/font]

[font="times new roman"]5-1[/font]
[font="times new roman"]The modifiers from 6.6.2.6 apply to Blockade Battle Combats.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Additionally, if the blockading[/i] force is victorious, there is no general chase or naval pursuit allowed. Victory by the blockaded or relieving force would allow a general chase and naval pursuit. All surviving blockaded ships are returned to port. If a force solely coming from an adjacent sea-area attacks a blockading force then chits are chosen as usual.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.4     Port Raids[/font]
[font="times new roman"]When a fleet attacks another located in a port, it is considered a port raid. Port raids are resolved using a modified sequence of open sea combat. The modifiers for open sea combat (6.6.2.6)apply to the attacker and to the defending ships.  The modifiers do not apply to the port guns.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Minor Free States and non-player Major Power fleets must[/i] be accompanied by at least the same number and type of vessels from a player Major Power to participate in a port attack[/font][5][font="times new roman"].[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.4.1     Harbor Defenses[/font]
[font="times new roman"]If there is a garrison or[/i] corps in the port, that are at war or that has denied access to the attacking naval force, the harbor defenses inflict casualties and morale loss on the attacking force equal to a single, unmodified, D6 roll using the 5-1 table on the COMBAT RESOLUTION CHART, with the harbor defense number as the strength.[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]If the attacking stack is given access by the port's controlling Major  Power, or no enemy corps or garrisons are in the port, the harbor defenses are not used.[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]If denied access to the port, the phasing stack may still attack, but the port's controlling player may use the harbor defenses. No declaration of war is required in this case, but the attacker may declare war, if possible as in 6.5.1.2.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]EXCEPTION: Even if the attacker has unconditional access (see peace term C.5) and/or an earlier voluntary access agreement with the neutral Major Power that controls the port, if any of the fleet(s) being attacked belong to the neutral Major Power controlling the port, the harbor defenses are used.[/font][/i]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.4.1.1     Port Raid Resolution[/font]
[font="times new roman"]The surviving attacking ships then engage the defending ships in battle. No tactical chits are chosen. Instead the following indicates which combat tables to use on the Combat Resolution Chart:[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Port Raid Combat Chart[/font]




[font="times new roman"]Attacking force:[/font]

[font="times new roman"] [/font]

[font="times new roman"]3-3[/font]

[font="times new roman"]3-3[/font]

[font="times new roman"]3-3[/font]

[font="times new roman"] [/font]


[font="times new roman"]Defending force:[/font]

[font="times new roman"]5-1
 (port guns)[/font]

[font="times new roman"]1-1[/font]

[font="times new roman"]2-2[/font]

[font="times new roman"]2-2[/font]

[font="times new roman"]5-2
 (port guns)[/font]
[font="times new roman"]The attacker's morale is reduced in accordance with the damage taken while running the harbor guns, prior to the start of the three possible rounds of combat.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]The raid lasts for three combat rounds or until the attacking force breaks or is eliminated. If the defending force breaks, the attacker continues to attack for the duration of the three rounds but the defender can no longer reply.
Following the three rounds of combat, the attacking ships (regardless of whether broken or not) withdraw past the harbor guns, suffering another (unmodified) attack on the 5-2 table.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.4.1.2     Victory and Defeat in a Port Raid[/font]
[font="times new roman"]To be considered a victor in a port raid, a force must[/i] have both broken (or totally eliminated) the opposing force and[/i] have inflicted more losses than he has received. If there is a victor, political points are adjusted as in 6.6.2.7.3. If neither side can claim victory, the battle is considered to be a draw and no adjustments are made.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.4.1.3     Aftermath[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Regardless of the outcome of the port raid, the attacking forces are removed to the blockade box or the nearest sea area (attacker's choice). Both sides retain their own damaged ships with the attacker must[/i] roll to return them to a friendly port as per 6.6.2.10.1. The defender rolls a D6 for each ship damaged in the port raid, on a "1" that ships is eliminated.  There is no general chase or naval pursuit after a port raid[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.5     Nelson[/font]
[font="times new roman"]A stack of British fleets (only) commanded by Nelson that has melee selected as its tactical chit by the controlling player, the number by which the player modifies the roll is also used to modify the casualty dice roll. The second roll to determine whether Nelson is wounded or killed is not modified.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.6     Surrender[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Naval forces may find it convenient more convenient to surrender rather than face near certain death. The following provides for that provision.[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]If more than one Major Power is part of a stack then the Major Power in charge of the stack (determine as per 6.6.2.2) decides whether it wants to surrender or not. If and only if the Major Power in charge of the stack decides to surrender, the other powers can decide to either surrender or to continue the naval combat. If a Major Power or a major controlling power chooses to surrender then all its fleets, corps and leaders as well as those of its controlled minors must[/i] surrender and are captured by the commander of the opposing forces. If thereby some of the powers still left in the combat are no longer able to transport all the army factors in transported corps (because of the limit on army factors transported per fleet and/or because the transporting fleets are now removed) then these excess army factors must[/i] also surrender. The fleets that did not surrender decide which army factors they transport.[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]A stack of fleets may surrender before[/i] each combat round. A stack of fleets may not surrender in the middle or end or a combat round[/font][6][font="times new roman"]. [/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]Fleets that surrender are regarded as losers, and the fleets to whom they surrender are regarded as winners with respect to political points. The lost/gained political points from the accumulated combat and surrenders in a naval combat, may never exceed the political points which could have been given if a normal naval combat had been fought. The political point modifier for Nelson is also applied in surrenders.[/font]
·         [font="times new roman"]When peace is concluded between the powers that have naval prisoners, these ships are exchanged on an equal basis. Ships that were damaged and captured, or taken as prizes in a pursuit are not included.  If one side has captured more ships through surrender[/i] than another, it has the option of not exchanging the extra captured vessels, taking a loss of -1 political points for every five ships not returned. These ships are now considered to be “in ordinary” at a designated port(s) of the capturing player, and as such may later be brought into active service.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1.1.7     Proportional Naval Losses[/font]
[font="times new roman"]When a stack of fleets of mixed nationalities (including minor country nationalities) and ship types participates in a combat, the losses they takes should be as nearly proportional to the starting proportions as possible. Round “.5” and above up. When proportions do not “round out” precisely, an “odd” loss or losses should be assigned by mutual agreement or, if agreement cannot be reached, by competitive D6 rolls[/font][7][font="times new roman"].  As the example indicates, losses are calculated first by nation, then by ship type.[/i][/font]
[font="times new roman"]

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[/font]

[1][font="times new roman"] For example, Britain is at war with France.  Russia is allied with France and neutral with Britain. Russia and France announce combined movement and Russian Fleets are in Le Havre, in a position to transport a French Corps which there as well.  Britain can run the guns and attack the Russian stack in Le Havre without a declaration of war. [/i][/font][/align]
[2][font="times new roman"] For example, Nelson led a purely British naval force in battle that employed the tactic "melee" and modified the closing chance by "-2".  The British won the battle.  When rolling for leader casualties (2D6) Nelson would receive a serious wound on a roll of 2-4, and a light wound on a 10-12.[/i][/font][/align]
[3][font="times new roman"] For example, a British stack consisting of 35 hvy ships and 10 lt. ships engages a French/Spanish stack consisting of 10 lt. ships. The modifiers would be: Britain; Odds in numbers (35 to 10 or 3 to 1) “+2”, heavy ship superiority (35 to none) “+1” for a total of “+3”, which is dropped to “+2” as this is the maximum allowable modifier, France/Spain; Multiple Major Powers “-1”, solely light ships “-1” for a total modifier of “-2”.[/i][/font]
[font="times new roman"]Another example, a British/Portuguese/Venetian stack consisting of 28 hvy ships and 30 lt. ships engages a French/Spanish stack consisting of 45 hvy ships and 30 lt. ships. The modifiers would be: Britain/Portugal/Venice; multiple minor powers “-1” for a total modifier of “-1”, France/Spain; multiple Major Powers “-1”, heavy ship superiority (45 to 28 or 1.6 to 1) “+1”, for a total modifier of “0”.[/font][/i][/align]
[4][font="times new roman"] If your fleets break in combat, the attacker will capture your ships damaged in combat, in addition to any ships that may be damaged in the general pursuit. This makes breaking in a naval battle very decisive.[/font][/align]
[5][font="times new roman"] For [/i]example: Russia controls Holland (Minor Free State) and wishes to make a port raid. Holland has 10 hvy ships and 14 lt. ships. Russia would have to send at least 24 ships of it’s own to make such a raid.[/i][/font][/align]
[6][font="times new roman"] For example, you can surrender before the battle (round 1), before round 2 or before round 3. You can not surrender after round 3, before a general pursuit or retreat.[/i][/font][/align]
[7][font="times new roman"] For example, a stack of fleets totaling 68 ships contains 36 British (52.9 %), 20 Swedish (29.4 %) and 12 Portuguese (17.7%) ships and subsequently loses 10 ships in a naval battle. The losses should be 5.29 (5) British, 2.94 (3) Swedish and 1.77 (2) Portuguese ships.  Of these 38 ships were heavy ships, 20 light ships and 10 galleys.  The losses should be 6 heavy (56%), 3 light (29%) and 1 galley (15%).  In cases where there may be option in taking casualties, competitive D6 rolls will resolve the differences.[/i][/font][/align][/align]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

OMG!!!

Getting your own back I see hahahaha! Well plenty of information to read through here then, looking forward to reading.[:)]

[Mardonius]

Hi Marshall:

I like this a lot better than what we have now. The port raid system is about what it should be... I might give the port guns a +1 die roll, at least on their second shot but otherwise it is a 90% solution.

I am not sure if all the chit choices are warranted... but I have not seen the tables or understand the tactscs of the lozenge or doubling chit choices (I think I have aguess on doubling).

How do light ships fit in? What are fleet sizes and movement allowances?

I'd say introduce it as an option to allow for playtesting. So can we build those Egyptian Fleets referenced? [:)]

Thanks
Mardonius

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

1.1.2.10.1 Damaged Ships returning to Port
· A side possessing damaged ships must immediately choose a port (or ports) to which to return them. Any controlled home nation, Conquered, Free State or Kingdom port owned by the player or by permission to any port controlled by a Major Power ally, may be selected. For each damaged ship, a D6 is rolled: if the distance to the port in movement points is greater than or equal to the D6 roll the damaged ship is sunk. (Permanently eliminated) Regardless of the distance to port a roll of “1” always sinks a damaged ship and a roll of “6” always means that the ship successfully reaches port. A damaged ship which successfully reaches port is a termed a damaged vessel and must be repaired before it can be used at sea again. Damaged ships do not need an escort, and move immediately (without requiring a fleet counter, and are immune to interception) to the chosen port.

I think this rule could be simplified, in that distance to port is irrelevant not important in this era, damaged ships were not in any danger of sinking unless a storm or gale intervened, so Die roll off 1 or 2 ship sinks ? any other roll reaches port, to be repaired.
The more ships that survive combat the better, since countrys would not need to build new replacements from scratch, with the build times and costs that are in the game at present, damaged ships are easier to repair, possible cost and times can be debated on.[:)]

[Mardonius]

Marshall:

Any chance we can see some reduced naval construction costs and build times? If not hardcoded, then as options?

Both of these costs and times are higher and longer in EiANW than in the old game. Build times are actually longer by one month than the rules read. This really makes ship building and naval actions a very rare thing in our campaigns, or at least after the first year or two.

See above for sources to explain why reduced costs are justified. They will go a long way to restoring balance (as far as playability/fun) to this game.

Thanks
Mardonius

[iamspamus]

Egypt had one light fleet (or two?), if I remember.

Jason

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

Hi Marshall:

I like this a lot better than what we have now. The port raid system is about what it should be... I might give the port guns a +1 die roll, at least on their second shot but otherwise it is a 90% solution.

I am not sure if all the chit choices are warranted... but I have not seen the tables or understand the tactscs of the lozenge or doubling chit choices (I think I have aguess on doubling).

How do light ships fit in? What are fleet sizes and movement allowances?

I'd say introduce it as an option to allow for playtesting. So can we build those Egyptian Fleets referenced? [:)]

Thanks
Mardonius

[Marshall Ellis]

I don't think Egypt had any fleets???
 

[iamspamus]

Distance is a key factor to this rule. This is why GB needs a Malta, Gibraltar, etc. The "sinking" is a game balancing mechanic, so I'm good with it.

Jason

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

1.1.2.10.1 Damaged Ships returning to Port
· A side possessing damaged ships must immediately choose a port (or ports) to which to return them. Any controlled home nation, Conquered, Free State or Kingdom port owned by the player or by permission to any port controlled by a Major Power ally, may be selected. For each damaged ship, a D6 is rolled: if the distance to the port in movement points is greater than or equal to the D6 roll the damaged ship is sunk. (Permanently eliminated) Regardless of the distance to port a roll of “1” always sinks a damaged ship and a roll of “6” always means that the ship successfully reaches port. A damaged ship which successfully reaches port is a termed a damaged vessel and must be repaired before it can be used at sea again. Damaged ships do not need an escort, and move immediately (without requiring a fleet counter, and are immune to interception) to the chosen port.

I think this rule could be simplified, in that distance to port is irrelevant not important in this era, damaged ships were not in any danger of sinking unless a storm or gale intervened, so Die roll off 1 or 2 ship sinks ? any other roll reaches port, to be repaired.
The more ships that survive combat the better, since countrys would not need to build new replacements from scratch, with the build times and costs that are in the game at present, damaged ships are easier to repair, possible cost and times can be debated on.[:)]

[Mardonius]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I don't think Egypt had any fleets???

I don't have the 3.0 version of the rules, but the 4.0 version of the rules have the following Egyptian Fleets:

I Fleet 22 HS, 6 LS (capacity)
I Squadron 5 LS/HS
II Squadron 5 LS/HS
I Priv. 5 Pr
II Priv. 5 Pr

For what it is worth, I have looked over the naval rules of EiH version 4.0 and they are much better than what made it into EiANW. Costs are still too high and Lt ships are not handeled well enough. They shoudl count for 1/2 fire power and losses but should give a large bonus to interception or evasion. I'd make interception harder (except against invasions, as they are near coasts and involve debarking troops) and evasion a bit easier... the seas are big places.

[iamspamus]

The N Africans should each have a privateer, if I remember correctly.

Mardonius, you should look at EIH 5.0 or 6.0. I know that Michael Treasure had updated some stuff by then.

Jason

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I don't think Egypt had any fleets???

I don't have the 3.0 version of the rules, but the 4.0 version of the rules have the following Egyptian Fleets:

I Fleet 22 HS, 6 LS (capacity)
I Squadron 5 LS/HS
II Squadron 5 LS/HS
I Priv. 5 Pr
II Priv. 5 Pr

For what it is worth, I have looked over the naval rules of EiH version 4.0 and they are much better than what made it into EiANW. Costs are still too high and Lt ships are not handeled well enough. They shoudl count for 1/2 fire power and losses but should give a large bonus to interception or evasion. I'd make interception harder (except against invasions, as they are near coasts and involve debarking troops) and evasion a bit easier... the seas are big places.

[Mardonius]

ORIGINAL: iamspamus

The N Africans should each have a privateer, if I remember correctly.

Mardonius, you should look at EIH 5.0 or 6.0. I know that Michael Treasure had updated some stuff by then.

Jason

True Jason. I was trying to get as close to Marshall's starting point as possible...

best
Varick

[iamspamus]

Oh, that's good. But some of the issues may have been resolved in later iterations. I know that in EIH 4 or 5, with the combat matrix he used Nelson got a +1 or +2 drm depending on what level of committment to melee (like guard committment) England picked for Nelson. The problem was that there was a death roll that had death on a high or low roll. I suggested that he do +1/+2 if above 7 and -1/-2 if below 7 and that gave the desired results. Commit ol' Nelson big and he can die (like historical). So, you did that on the battle that you needed to win against the combined FRA and/or SPA and/or RUS navy.

So, just a thought that we may be able to smooth out some of the rules by going to a later version.
Jason

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

ORIGINAL: iamspamus

The N Africans should each have a privateer, if I remember correctly.

Mardonius, you should look at EIH 5.0 or 6.0. I know that Michael Treasure had updated some stuff by then.

Jason

True Jason. I was trying to get as close to Marshall's starting point as possible...

best
Varick