Directive 21 playtesters thread

[SMK-at-work]

T30-31:

[SMK-at-work]

T32-33:

[SMK-at-work]

I've tried to make the animation a bit smaller for turns 43-50 -

Here's 43-46:

[SMK-at-work]

And 47-50 - notice the Brandenberger wandering over towards the Urals!

[SMK-at-work]

And just for comparison here's the soviet view at the turns indicated - note the new units at Leningrad at T42 - I don't know whether they came over lake Ladoga or were rebuilt in a stray Soviet owned hex there.

But basically it looks like I killed off enough soviets in the first 20 or so turns so that they never recovered.

[SMK-at-work]

I just downloaded the new version and actually read hte briefing & noticed that I had cheated with the Finns - attacking with them over the "stop line" before Leningrad fell....but I shall not do that next time...

[larryfulkerson]

Early in turn two I'm moving my units and I find two hexes in Russian territory that I haven't moved onto yet that are already converted to friendly hexes. I haven't any idea why or how that happened. Anybody have any ideas?

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Early in turn two I'm moving my units and I find two hexes in Russian territory that I haven't moved onto yet that are already converted to friendly hexes. I haven't any idea why or how that happened. Anybody have any ideas?

I think that was part of Canaris' experiment in using beached whales to control enemy coastal areas.

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

... thought I'd play on for a bit to see how the shock 80 affedcts things....

Please do if you can, we're pretty sure we are going to switch the mud turns from a cease fire event to a shock event. Any feedback would be good, plus any ideas on whether Elmer should be hit with the same negative shock value as the Axis. I'm working towards Citadel around turn 190 so I can experience it again. If anyone else wants to try it, in the earlier file you can pick the Typhoon Theater Option at turn 43. Then when Typhoon is over, the Axis side will suffer 80% shock for 10-11 turns. This was eliminated in the later files, you can tell which one you have by the briefing. In the later, non 80% shock version, the briefing tells you that you get two supply units, and that is the only effect.

[Karri]

If you are going to play the mud through shock make sure both sides get the same negative shock. If you don't give the Soviets same negative shock then they will have a huge advantage over the axis, even if they just have slightly higher shock they still have a big advantage.

[SMK-at-work]

I played up to 52 but there wasn't much point - the -ve shock was completely countered by the overwhelming Axis numbers - there were only 340 Russian units left at the end - 1 Romanian division disintegrated under counter-attack by Novorossisk, but otherwise the massacre continued....

[larryfulkerson]

I really like where the Arty is in the order of battle in the newest version.  It's right where it needs to be when you're moving units and designating attacks.  If it was earlier in the order of battle like in FITE, you need to anticipate where you think it might be needed, whereas now you have a better idea where you need your arty to go.  It's better.  Thanks.

[SMK-at-work]

I have found already (2 turns of the new version) that it makes it a bit awkward for shifting it around if you want to concentrate it for an offensive, or if you're not meticulous about keeping each corps together then it ends up (already!) fragmented- and some of it starts quite some distance from its parent units so it's not all good to start with.

So I'll have to disagree with Larry - I don't like it.

I have no problems with the previous version - the artillery formations were easy enough to find in the OOB by going back to OKH in Berlin and then cycling through formations.

Ditto with the engineers/bridging units - I found it awkward - I wanted to bridge rivers 2-3 hexes wide at hte start of hte campaign & had to muck around looking for them.

If you're going to lump the artillery with corps then IMO a better idea would be to put it in the corps HQ's and at least give them a useful purpose - that would also help prevent them being used a-historically as scouts and to surround units.

[larryfulkerson]

I agree that the Arty units were easier to find in the old version: just hit the 'O' button and look a few lines down from OKW. But I'm found another way to find your arty units. The first click on the 'HQ' button brings the headquarters units to the top of stacks but the second click brings all the arty units to the top of the stack. Maybe we should lobby Ralph for a third click to bring all the engineers to the top of the stack as well (?).

I don't try to keep my Corp HQ units close to the arty units and indeed use them for recon, to finish surrounds, etc. and to bolster the weakest units on the front line. Other than that I don't have much use for Corp HQ units. Heck, I'll even use the AA units to finish a surround in a pinch.

[sPzAbt653]

The first click on the 'HQ' button brings the headquarters units to the top of stacks but the second click brings all the arty units to the top of the stack.

Neat! An 'easy' button, just like in the commercials!

the artillery ... a better idea would be to put it in the corps HQ's and at least give them a useful purpose

This is very true. It wasn't done that way because a lot of artillery units enter later in the scenario. That would mean that some would be in the HQ's, some would not be in. Or it would require a change out of HQ units (I don't want to do that). But if the at start artillery units were in the HQ's, that would certainly make the initial turns easier to manage. And it may not matter much if the later ones are separate. I'll consider doing it that way.

I didn't like the engineer setup at first, either. It takes some getting used to. But now I find that if I don't know where they are, a click on the local Corps HQ's reveals which ones have assets, and then they are easy to find.

[SMK-at-work]

It may be accurate from a historical point of view, unfortunately TOAW doesn't let you shift units around between formations as was also historical.

IMO fixing units to corps formations is the greater of 2 evils in this case.

As an example  - 11 & 30 Inf Korps starts in Romania....but their artillery starts on the other side of the Lvov "bulge" in Poland - so something is a bit strange there.....

Edit: I think the Brandenburgers might have been nerfed a bit too much...I'm finding them pretty useless now - they don't even move fast enough to keep up with the front lines!

[sPzAbt653]

11 & 30 Inf Korps starts in Romania....but their artillery starts on the other side of the Lvov "bulge" in Poland

Those units are in a special circumstance. They did start where they are located, adding to the artillery support for AGS. The choices were to attach them to another formation, or move them into Rumania at start, or the way they are set up now. If a player wants to keep the formations together, then once the link up is made between AGS and 11th Army, it will all straighten out. Or once 11th Army becomes active, rail its' artillery to Rumania.

On the Brandenburgers, we found that most often they were being dropped in Soviet territory and then moving all over the place converting hexes. So we had to downgrade them somehow. I think you said that you don't drop them like that, but what else can be done to keep them from being overused? The idea of using the guerilla icon wasn't too popular.

[SMK-at-work]

Does special ops make them air droppable?  I didn't see "air droppable" so didn't try. I guess if you were air dropping them then it'd be better for them - I shall remove them to airfields forthwith!!

What you outlined for the 11 & 30 Korps artillery is exactly my point - I se no reason to attach units strictly to formations when such attachment has little or no effect on the game.  If TOAW had systems for re-attaching then it would be fine...but it don't...shrug.

[larryfulkerson]

Sorry to bust your bubble SMK but according to the picture I've attached the dude's you're talking about are foot movement only. So I'm guessing they can't be loaded on aircraft and dropped willy-nilly.

[sPzAbt653]

Don't forget that they have 'special' capabilities.