Wall Height for Modular Wall?

[benpark]

I'm making a few types of modular stone (heavy) walls. The first will be a tall wall that would be seen in towns and cities. I will make one that infantry can see over, and one that will block LOS.

What height is the cut off for infantry/AF's to see/fire over? Is it "what you see is what you get?

The version below is almost the tall one's height, to give an idea.

[rickier65]

Ben,

There's a thread discusion about walls somewhere. I think it might have been Rob (Mraah) that started it, or maybe myself. I know Rob customized some for a scenario I did (Piepsk) and he adjusted height until it was where I was thinking it should be - though this was a rural village, ot an urban area. He mailed me the set, but not sure if they made it into an official downloadeable mod or not.

In any event, I think Rob had done some testing on wall heights and what effects it had on LOS.

Rick

[Mraah]

Ben,

Great looking wall. I'm glad you're taking up the slack where I left off.

Height check ...

3 meters --- blocks LOS
2 meters --- eh, maybe ... you'll have to check.
1 meters --- when set as "hasheight" it will provide hulldown for vehicles.

Rob

[benpark]

That's great info thanks.

Anyone remember the exact scale for one grid MS3D to PzC meters?

[Mobius]

1/2.54

Apparenly the models are in metric and the progam is in inches.

[Mraah]

Ben,

Also, the LOS blockage is also based on the terrain type underneath except in the case of hasheight.

So, if you use the wall terrain ( -30 los points) it would block pretty good but it might not block up close, depending on height.

Go back to this old thread ... tm.asp?m=1842254

Explains some of the tests I did.
Rob

[benpark]

Here is an initial test. This shows what happens close up, but the effect is the same from further back (for infantry and AFV's). As far as game play goes, this isn't going to be good enough as is. "What you see is what you get" is unforgiving in this way.

I'll try scaling up and wider to see if that will help. If the model needs to be "2-3 meters wide, and 3 meters tall", that's going to be one wide wall.

[benpark]

I just tried again with the wall scaled up 1.5%. Same results. That's about as thick as it can get without looking absurd.

I'm a little worried by this as far as how the LOS is working. Is everything in the LOS dependent only on the ground code? Or (hopefully), is there some form of tracing "above ground" being done?

[Mobius]

Did you make the underlying terrain "wall"?   The game engine works in concert with both the model definitions and the terrain key.

As a test awhile back I made the terrain under some ruins as wall and the occupants could not see out once mounted.

[benpark]

Yes, It is set to "wall".

I'm going to set up something a little more precise to figure out what is happening. My goal is to try to break up some of the wide open spaces in some of my maps. I hope I can do it without having a wall as thick as a house!

[benpark]

Here's a thought- the "bounding box" that is set by the model size determines the AI code footprint, correct? Maybe I could set the footprint in the .xml to be the requisite size to create the LOS obstruction, but keep the model size realistic looking. I suppose this might create movement issues around the wall, however.

The best solution would be to add "tall wall" to the set of AI codes, though. This would allow a structure that would be taller than it is wide to create a decent LOS block, and also allow movement near enough to the structure to derive full benefit from it's cover. This is probably not possible to do on our end (?).

[benpark]

I slightly increased the width of the wall, and it now works. It's one wide wall now.

I guess I still don't understand why the width has anything to do with blocking the LOS, though. Isn't the height shown to the underlying engine by the model information?

The placement of the walls will also need to really be finessed in the scene editor. The easy placement is a help through the MM, but they are placed a distance apart. This is probably the last thing that will be done on any map (along with particular trees for cosmetic changes, etc).

[Stridor]

Ben,

'scuse my ignorance but what exactly are you trying to achieve?

Have you tried other codings like (obstacle, tank obstacle, fence, ruins, barb wire, etc, hell you could even try water!) I don't think at this stage now Koios is gone that anyone really knows so you will have to experiment!

I do know that vehicles have 2 rays projected (top + bottom for hull down). But I don't think that is true of infantry which are still totally abstracted.

Regards

S.

[RyanCrierie]

Ben, don't forget to do at least a "snowy" version. I'm doing that right now for my Dragon's teeth.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: benpark

I slightly increased the width of the wall, and it now works. It's one wide wall now.

I guess I still don't understand why the width has anything to do with blocking the LOS, though. Isn't the height shown to the underlying engine by the model information?

I suppose the engine only counts the planes it intersects. It doesn't know a tree plane from a wall plane except by the terrain under it.

[Mraah]

Ben,

If your walls are being built to simply obstruct LOS and you're not intending anyone to climb the wall then it's best to tag it as "hasheight" and use the red immpassible color. This will assure it blocks LOS at any width.

The LOS blockage has two requirments that I found ...

One is the underlying terrain width ... has to pass through 3 meters on terrain color.
Second, is the # of planes it passes through.

So, a case in point is the buildings. You can see that the LOS is blocked going through two planes of the model with at least 3 meters underlying terrain. You'll note that on the edge of a building it doesn't block LOS when it passes the corner as it has less than 3 meters underlying terrain.

It's all quite confusing, yes.

[rickier65]

Does no one from Koios visit these threads anymore? I thought someone was here last summer.

Rick

[benpark]

Thanks for the advice. Coding as an "impassable"sounds like it might be a good thing to try. Won't "has height" allow units to "climb" the structure, though?

Basically, what I'm trying to do is to create a wall that simulates the type that I saw in Hungary that line parts of many streets in villages and cities. I also think that something needs to be done about the often limitless open spaces of many maps. This contributes to the some of infantry deficiencies in the game, I believe. The wall needs to be around 6' tall, and about a foot wide to represent this structure.

If one looks out their window, how far can you see out into the horizon? There are many places (farmed fields or steppe for example) where this might be a great distance, but most are areas where the distance you might have an unobstructed view of only a hundred feet or so. Most landscapes are cluttered with small stands of trees, brush, refuse and houses.

The more I do to add things to the terrain to give more cover and obstruction to view, the better the game play feels to me. Infantry can now ambush AFV's that drive into these obstructed areas. Tank vs tank combat is also more interesting than it was when they were simply sitting across the map blasting away at each other.

Doing a winter version+ a wall that will give AFV's hull down is added to the list of things I want to do.

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: benpark

Thanks for the advice. Coding as an "impassable"sounds like it might be a good thing to try. Won't "has height" allow units to "climb" the structure, though?

The unit won't climb the object if the underlying terrain is impassable ... they will go around it.

Also, you may want to try the "obstacle" color ... purple color (128,0,128). Same used for the bridges, I think. Same idea.