Weapon Damage

[Edgewise]

Shotguns:
 
They fire multiple bullets when using buckshot.  At medium range or on a near 'miss' you will get only a partial hit, IE some of these projectiles land some don't.  Individually, they do very little damage, collectively they can do a great deal, a 1 shot kill.  Shooting at longer ranges, a shotgun will be less than ideal unless given to someone with low accuracy who'd miss all the time without a shotgun.  The best case use imo is when you fire down a narrow kill-zone with multiple targets in the blast path.  You might hit one in the head, another in the leg, and so on, causing all kinds of grief.  When you hit a well armored target, few if any of the individual shots will penetrate the armor, but the impact will still knock alot of stamina out of the target.  Not to mention, shotguns have a knockback ability when enough of the shot lands sending the target flying backward.  You will almost always destroy a door/window/exploding barrel you are aiming at if using a shotgun within range.  So... shotguns can be good.  Only a couple maps I could not solo with a SMG/shotgun/grenade combo.

[Mraah]

Reinforce,

If you decide to mod a shotgun then might I suggest the "double tap" feature we talked about when I used that for the M1 garand.

I think if we gave the shotgun a ROF of 120, with a 2-shot single fire attribute with the same AP cost then it might improve it's fun-factor.

Frankly, I wouldn't see the change being unrealistic.

Oh, you know, what about a sawed-off shotgun ... double tap with half the AP cost?

hmmm,

Rob

EDIT NOTE ... BTW, I'm going to look at adding an ammo type "flechette" for the M79 gl ... I haven't look at it yet but it might be doable.

[Edgewise]

ORIGINAL: Mraah ....If you decide to mod a shotgun then might I suggest the "double tap" feature....

How about a double barrel shotgun?

[LimeyBugger]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

yes, if you think the right choice is to toss a nade when you standing next to someone, they yes you are a fool

You said "close", and later gave an example of "point blank" separately. I assumed, quite reasonably, that the first example and the second weren't referring to the same situation. Now that you're stating that it's "standing next to", I am confused even more. At point blank, you're not going to get any spreading of the shot - so you should only be hitting one target.

If it were real life - and you came face-to-face with 3 armed and armoured opponents - well, you're probably dead.

and I am a Marine, we don't run away like the rangers and we don't believe in that kind of training, you run, you normally die, and for the area you are talking about, that is not combat training, we are assult troops, shock troops, we fight (when I got out, I was recuited by the Army, I could join the Rangers as soon as I signed the paper, any Ranger would have to go though training and pass bootcamp to become a Marine)

I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the US military training requirements. However, I suspect that it has more to do with politics between the various branches of the military than the skills one learns in service. I don't see how a Marine trained soldier could walk straight into Ranger corps, since he knows little of woodcraft, patrol, etc skills which they focus on.

but as I am trying to say, the Green hat guys, and the Rangers are not set up to fight toe to toe, that is not there job, that is our job, and before you try to get smart again, I was also trained by the Green hats, so I know there style also (the Green hats preach that unless you are setting up a raid, if you have to fire your weapon, somebody screwed up)

That's quite honestly the first time I've ever heard of the Green Berets as "the Green hat guys". Due to good marketing and an easy to remember name, most people remember those "green hat guys" as "Green Berets". For an ex-Marine, your choice of terminology is very odd. Dunno - maybe it's me, but most service folks I know are quite specific as to their references. Black Watch aren't referred to as, "those guys in skirts"... unless one has a suicidal streak.

But hey, if you say you're an ex-Marine, then who am I to question that? This is the Internet. Men are men, women are men, and children are FBI agents.

Yes, I know - all elite/special forces generally have specific roles they train for and specialize in. SAS may be great for sneaking and raiding, but wouldn't be your first choice for long range recon patrolling. I chose the reference to Rangers because I thought their methodology was the closest to HG - you _SHOULD_ be raiding - choosing the time and place of combat and hitting your opponent with devastating force. That's how it should work - if they had the engine sorted. Sadly however, 6 mercs vs. 20 comp soldiers doesn't generally work that way.

but back to the point, last battle just fought/played, my shotgun did 10 points of damage to the target, while my 7.62 and 5.56 both did 2 points, which to be honest, none of them made me very happy, but combined they worn the guy out

I finally finished the dictator's palace and had everyone with sniper rifles of one sort or another. Killed off the guards I could see, moved in, scavenged some assault rifles from the fallen and cleared out the interior of the palace. I can't imagine using a shotgun - ranges were too great and opponents far too heavily armoured.



[/quote]

[LimeyBugger]

With reference to your training not being in "running away", I thought I'd shed some light on the subject.

Hannibal used it quite effectively in the Battle of Cannae, where his center feigned a retreat, drawing the Romans in and allowing his wings to flank and ultimately envelop them. As a military man, you really should see the connection between his tactics against Varro and using the same method in HG to pull the AI soldiers into a nice little kill zone.

Probably not as well planned, but nonetheless well executed - or some historians would have us believe, William used it against Harold (twice, some say) in the Battle of Hastings. The initial retreat was caused by rumours of his death - which sparked the retreat - and he stopped it by removing his helm. Given the battle discipline of troops at the time, I rather doubt it was something he had planned, even in his wildest dreams. But he saw the idea of it, and used it in a more planned and organized manner.

The Mongols were quite famous for their use of feigned retreat to sucker armies into tactically disadvantageous positions. I think they used it against the Malmuks in Egypt, but I can't be sure. It was a pretty common tactic for them - probably something others weren't used to, since it requires a level of discipline and planning unknown to most of their opponents.

More recently, Rommel used feigned retreat quite effectively in North Africa - his "88 Ambush". He dug his 88s into a U-shaped formation and sent out his light tanks to feign an attack on the Brits. When his tanks retreated, the Brits followed - and as you might guess - into the barrels of his 88mm guns. Boom. Lots of dead Brits. I think it happened about the time he was attacking Tobruk, if you want to check it out.

More of a real retreat this time - but another example of using a retreat offensively - Rommel again - used retreating at Kasserine Pass to inflict a nasty defeat on the American and British forces chasing him.

OK, these are battles and not squad-sized engagements. Those are rather hard to find, because small engagements tend to be quick and bloody. Still, the concept is the same.

There are loads of examples in history - as a military man, you should be able to rattle off a dozen examples. But you weren't trained to retreat... well, what can I say? Highly trained infantry-man that doesn't know small unit tactics? Well - like I said - men are men, women are men, children are FBI agents. If you insist you're an ex-marine - well, if saying that makes you feel good, go right ahead and keep saying it.

[Hard Sarge]

overall, I would say you don't know much about the Military, for the most part, any body in the Army is a Doggy, in the Navy a Squid, in the Airforce a Zoomie, and they have there own names for Marines

besides running guys around with Green hats, they also have a group that likes to wear blue Cowboy hats and Yellow scarfs, really helped them out when in the swamps

I could walk into the Rangers, because I already had the training they needed to go though

but, you seem to be reading what you want into what I am saying, so no reason to keep saying things

but again, that is not the point, if you don't like shotguns, don't carry them, you want to carry nothing but Sniper Rifles, more power to you, as I tried to say, it all comes down to play style

[Edgewise]

Uh you guys takin this a little personal? Sarge, as everyone knows, Marine tactics are unique in alot of ways.  They see a machine gun bunker and they charge it, take casualties, and go on.  The army stops, calls for an artillery strike, then moves ahead. I took a leak once on an airbase in Saudi then started to walk out when I was stopped short by an airman who said "In the air force, we're tought how to wash our hands after we use the bathroom."  I was covered with sand and hadn't had a shower in about a month.  I replied "In the Army, we're tought how to not pee on our hands." then left.  I also got called out by an Air Force captain on the same air base for not saluting him.  I shot him a snappy salute and said "sniper check sir" then continued on.  All branches do things differently and think they're right, just how it is.

[SlickWilhelm]

Are you guys done with the pissing contest now? [8|]

Anyway, to get back on the topic...in my experience playing HG(I'm on my second game, having completed it once), I've found the shotgun to be useful in the early game. They are good at one shot kills at close range if aimed at the head, or sometime at the torso. Remember, though, that the ammo for shotguns in HG is reversed. If it says Buckshot, it's really bullet, and vise-versa.

In my second game, I'm going to keep one merc per squad on shotgun throughout and see how it goes.

[Hard Sarge]

true, and I agree and that is what I was trying to say, he the one throwing insults around, that I don't know anything about small unit tactics or other basic combat skills, I said if he wanted to toss a granade into a room, to take out the enemy while he is standing in the room, then he is a fool (in real life, in the game it doesn't matter as he can always reload)

and for our tactics vs others, most times, we are in the postion of having no choice in the matter, like in the old days, on Tawara, they had no place to go but to keep charging into the guns, they couldn't drop back and call in arty or run away and have the enemy chase them

but as I was trying to say, if you are in a kill zone, you only got two choices, fight or die (most people who drop to the ground or turn to run away, die, it is those who fight back and attack/charge who got a chance to live, but, if it is a good kill zone, don't matter either way)

(by the way, I like that story, had a buddy of mine at work pull it on me)

[Hard Sarge]

In my second game, I'm going to keep one merc per squad on shotgun throughout and see how it goes.

once the AI goes to the better weapons, I would say it is better to keep one as a backup/close up weapon, then to keep it as a Primary

I am up against the Guardsmen now, and still carry one, but only pull it out for attacks of choice (will say the same about my blooper man, and the one rocket launcher I carry at times)

(besides, I think those things will come in handy at the Palace)

[Edgewise]

The biggest problem with shotguns in HG is the AP cost followed closely by limited selection.  I'd like to see double barrel and 'common' semi-auto versions available, as well as allowing the mod (or just adding like a 'carbine' version) 'sawed off' shotguns. Mech skill 50 to do it without damaging or breaking the weapon.  AP cost of 9 for pump action, 8 for semi-auto, and -1 for sawed off shotguns. Sawed off shotguns would weigh less as well, but have range cut in half, and shot spread doubled.  The limited selection and extreme AP costs assigned to these weapons in HG makes them far less usefull than they are irl.  Still, they can be good in HG in certain situations.
 
Cool shotgun ammo you might wanna consider to spice them up:
Dragon's breath ammo  Shotgun flamethrower!  Afaik you can still buy these online if you look hard enough.  I found some ammo for around 20 bucks/round about 8 years ago.  Not sure about legallity, but they are very very hard to find for sure.  Update: found some for 16.98 each, sold by a California based company. White phosphorous, range varries but the most evil ones are only about 20 meters, more docile go out to 100m, just depends on the cartridge contents.
Flechette lots of needle like projectiles, greater penetration than normal rounds. Not sure if I'd call them a true 'armor piercing' round but supposidly much better vs body armor than buckshot
Flare self explanitory, useless without night implimentation
Shredder Like buckshot, many projectiles, but these are all jagged and angular like a dozen tiny caltrops.  Supposed to do huge damage to unprotected targets up close, but non-aerodynamic shot so range is very short.
 
You can really load almost anything into a shotgun.  Tiny grenades, shaped charge projectiles, etc.  You can't buy explosive small arms ammo that is designed for human targets (international laws yadda yadda, war crimes bla bla) but you can buy pre-made hollow slugs with a detination charge in the tip, essentially allowing someone with the right skills to make a small HEAP (High explosive anti-personnel) round for a shotgun.  Why it's perfectly legal to make tank/artillery sized HEAP rounds but not bullet sized, I'm not totally sure but that's how it is.

[Hard Sarge]

agree

yeap, seen some of them flamers

my buddy had a sawoff that was just plain dump, 3 inch barrel (you could see the shell when it was loaded) never seen him fire it (I didn't want to) but he said it worked

I think the AP costs for about everything is a little too high

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I think the AP costs for about everything is a little too high

Not sure how long a round is supposed to be, so I couldnt say.

Generally speaking, it doesnt really make sense how some of the actions take a great deal more AP than others, but I understand why for game design purposes they dont want a sniper with a semiauto weapon system cranking off 3 decently aimed shots a round or a guy throwing out more than 1 grenade in a round.

[Edgewise]

ORIGINAL: Mus

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I think the AP costs for about everything is a little too high

Not sure how long a round is supposed to be, so I couldnt say.

Generally speaking, it doesnt really make sense how some of the actions take a great deal more AP than others, but I understand why for game design purposes they dont want a sniper with a semiauto weapon system cranking off 3 decently aimed shots a round or a guy throwing out more than 1 grenade in a round.

I also dunno how long a round is. I just try to look at ap vs other ap actions. Grenades actually do take a while to pull the pin, aim and throw. Alot longer than any shooting action imo. But you can run the distance of 2-3 rail cars in a round, so I think it's reasonable you could execute 3 aimed shotgun trigger pulls in the same time, or 2-3 sniper shots if they were on a single target.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Edgewise

I also dunno how long a round is. I just try to look at ap vs other ap actions. Grenades actually do take a while to pull the pin, aim and throw. Alot longer than any shooting action imo. But you can run the distance of 2-3 rail cars in a round, so I think it's reasonable you could execute 3 aimed shotgun trigger pulls in the same time, or 2-3 sniper shots if they were on a single target.

Throw them where and how accurately? Ive noticed the game is designed to prevent a single character throwing more than one grenade. I think more than one could easily be thrown in a "round" given the other possible actions taken.

As far as the amount of time needed to fire 3 aimed shots from a shotgun or a sniper rifle, yeah I agree the time necessary to do so is very small, althought not quite as fast as the time needed to fire 3 aimed shots from a pistol or assault rifle.

The reason why you cant fire 3 shots from a shotgun or rifle in a single round, is because the ability to do so would unbalance the gameplay, not because its unrealistic to be able to do it.

We see these kinds of balance decisions made all the time.

[LimeyBugger]

http://www.devildogs.cc/

Handy list of jarhead slang - yes, I can find it as easily as you. Hoorah.

In my experience, most military folks refer to anyone in the navy as "arse bandits" - or some derivation thereof. Pretty universal, really. Not sure how "squid" equates to that - tho I'm sure it involves something pretty hideous.

But back to shotguns...

You stated initially that they had their use in the game, regardless of what point you're at - beginning, middle, end. My point with the statement on sniper rifles - was that HG combat strongly favours long-range weapons. The longer, the better.

What should ostensibly have been the toughest fight of the game, was an absolute doddle. Partly due to engine mechanics, but I have to say that they really didn't think things through in the map design. If it's your style to use a shotgun - then have fun. Really, I think you'll be hitting the reload button a lot on the last fight.

I said if he wanted to toss a granade into a room, to take out the enemy while he is standing in the room, then he is a fool (in real life, in the game it doesn't matter as he can always reload)

Uh - lie. You didn't say "in the room". You didn't say "right frikking next to" - you said "close". To quote, "depending on the spread, you can hit 3 to 5 guys with a shot (use buckshot)". Sorry, but you're LYING about what you said.

Make up your mind - is it "short range" or "point blank"? Are you a marine or a ninja master trained by Masaaki Hatsumi? Get your story straight.

As for real-life - well, you're dead. Unless they're pretty crappily trained, 3-1 odds isn't good for survival rate. Generally doesn't matter what you're armed with - shotgun, pistol or knife.

[Edgewise]

The reason why you cant fire 3 shots from a shotgun or rifle in a single round, is because the ability to do so would unbalance the gameplay, not because its unrealistic to be able to do it.

I have to disagree. I don't think 3 shotgun trigger pulls in a round is broken considerring how shotguns work in the game. Body armor just makes them not all that dangerous, but the AP cost makes them junk. As most people have said, nobody uses -just- a shotgun, the people who use them at all use them mostly at the beginning of the game. I find them useful in certain situations, but by the time I've got a nice AR, the shotgun is dumped on the ground someplace. And you can actually fire 3 rifle shots in a round, just not with max aim. Many AR's work just fine in HG in a sniping role anyhow and eliminate the need to lug another weapon and ammo around.

[R@S]

There is a shotgun that you can shoot 2 shots in one turn, the Mag-7. It hasn't a low weight but is very good as a back-up weapon for those sticky situations. I've had some nice close up and pers'nal kills with that one[:D]

[Edgewise]

Yea, but the other shotguns should also have that ability. Shotguns are one of the most common civilian/police firearms in the world, largely because of their versatility and raw firepower. I think they are under represented and poorly represented in HS.

[SlickWilhelm]

I'm having very good luck on my second game using a shotgun, especially with the bullet ammo(which in the game is mislabeled as "buckshot"). Bizon is doing very well with the Benelli Super 90 as his main weapon. Granted, I haven't reached the airport yet, but when used by someone with good acc rating, it's an effective killing utility. When hit by a 12 guage slug, the bad guys get blown backwards about ten yards(and they die). It also sounds great with the speakers turned up! [8D]

Bizon also brings along a Mac-10 in his backpack in case he gets wounded and doesn't have enough AP's for the shotgun.