Weapon Damage

[Vacuusimago]

This isn't a whine thread.. I REALLY, REALLY want to get into this game.. but.. could someone please explain if there is a fix, or a reason, for a shotgun doing.. 2 damage.. to a guy in a t-shirt? Or the head? Does worn armor doesnt show on enemies? I just cant go through an entire game that plays out 6 damage at a time. T.T

I get some normal damage, sometimes, but it just seems _VERY_ hard. And the only good shots I ever do are spending a lot of ammo with a burst shot.

Could someone offer me some wisdom on this? I've poked around quite a lot, but havent seen any difinitive answers.. and it just seems that a game like this would have caught an error like that in alpha testing.

I do have the beta patch installed. Thank you.

[Reinforce]

Body Armor dosn't show on tangos.
 
Buckshot which is what I assume your useing does very little damage, Slugs do great damage problem is hitting anything with a shotgun. Also bullets have an armor penetration value that players can't see AP haveing the best HP/OC haveing the worest if you don't get threw a targets armor you'll get the 2 damage. Becouse your hitting the armor and the -2 is from the impact.
 
Your best bet in a stock un-modded game is use the Red Bullets throw out the Shotguns and use Assault Rifles or better. Aim for the torso, Alot of people say aim for the legs but I find that miss's more. Only aim low at the legs if your going to fire in auto as the weapons tent to climb. Also it's highly recommended you start on the Newbie level to get used to how the game plays befor jumping into the higher modes.
 
Much love,
Reinforce

[Vacuusimago]

<3 Excellent. I'm playing with your mod, actually, Reinforce. That's what threw me off a bit.. I think... it did show in JA2 if enemies were using body armor. It just seems odd with the level of detail that you wouldnt be able to tell at all if they were using body armor. I just figure they had on Mithril wifebeaters. XD

Thank you Reinforce!

[Reinforce]

Ah, Basic rule is Militia have class 1, Soldiers are in class 2 and Guardsmen are all armored up in Class 3 with pants for the most part. Everyones got a chance to have head gear. Sometimes they don't sometimes they do. Seems to be a random value for yes no there. Oddly they don't look like they have a helmet but if you shoot them in the head enough the little helmet will fly off, It's rather&nbsp;funny to see.&nbsp;
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The Merc sector guards you hire to protect places show there gear. But they use the same model as your Mercs, It's dynamic sadly the Joe Who NPCs arn't that cool so they get Generic preset models... makes me sad to be honest and drove me crazy when I started playing this myself.
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Much Love,
Reinforce

[Vacuusimago]

It's.. UNBELIEVABLE if you dont know what's going on. Hahah. XD If they just made.. some kind of.. MODEL or something for it. ANY indication. ANY. XD And besides, they pretty much ruled out.. what.. MOST of the weapons in the game? A good fraction? Who would carry around an SMG or pistol if you cant find AP ammo now? You cant really plan what to use on who.

It was kinda fun trying to tough it out with those low-end weapons in the first game. Shotguns were soooo king. ,3

[LimeyBugger]

ORIGINAL: Vacuusimago

Shotguns were soooo king. ,3

I have to agree with you there. In JA2, shotguns had a distinct place in your weapon choices in the early part of the game. In HG, however, their place seems rather - well, they don't have one. I'd be very interested to hear from their play-testers (assuming it was play-tested) as to the role of shotguns in the design of the game.

That said, at least pistols have some use later in the game. A .357 as a backup weapon can save your sniper's butt, if someone pops out from a corner at point-blank range.

I think Reinforce is right - just trash the useless things. They have no place in HG combat.

[Hard Sarge]

I got to disagree, Shotguns have there place in real combat, the same way they do in HG, just use them correctly, and they work like they do in real life

[LimeyBugger]

I'm not clear on what you mean by shotguns "having a place" in HG combat. High AP cost, low damage, and short effective range makes them pretty useless in the context of HG combat.

Perhaps you can provide an example where a shotgun is the "weapon of choice" in HG combat?

[Reinforce]

I avoid shotguns like the black plague, They are more trouble then there worth. Heck even a handgun will serve you better.. and that's kind of sad. I was hopeing shotguns would be great for close combat but your better off with an assault rifle for that too. Given they don't miss at 5 meters as much as the good old shottie does. I'd also like to know of a time when shotguns come into there own. Best use I have for them is knocking people over.
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Much Love,
Reinforce

[R@S]

I agree with Hard Sarge on this one. Shotguns are useful, but only in the beginning of the game. Once the enemy starts wearing good armor they are pretty useless, unless you are close and do a double head-shot, first shooting off the helmet and then get a clean head-shot.

Remember to use a merc that are good with shotguns. There seems to be another factor with accuracy, getting used to a weapon. When dealing with shotguns, you have to fire 30-50 shots before you get any good hits with it. This is true with most weapons. This is used in Brigade E5 and 7.62 and it's only my guess that it's used in this game as well. Could be another one of my supersticions[:D]

[LimeyBugger]

ORIGINAL: R@S

I agree with Hard Sarge on this one. Shotguns are useful, but only in the beginning of the game. Once the enemy starts wearing good armor they are pretty useless, unless you are close and do a double head-shot, first shooting off the helmet and then get a clean head-shot.

Couple of points:
1. You won't have enough APs to get off 2 shots. Not that I've seen, anyhow. Not with a head shot, which pretty much requires AP expenditure for aiming.
2. The same can be accomplished more reliably with a decent handgun. A couple of shots to the face with a .357 can do wonders.
3. Hard Sarge didn't say, "in the beginning of the game" - your agreement with him is in something he didn't state.

Remember to use a merc that are good with shotguns. There seems to be another factor with accuracy, getting used to a weapon.

That might make shotgun usage suck less - but they still suck. Decent handgun and you're better off in 99.999% of the cases.

When dealing with shotguns, you have to fire 30-50 shots before you get any good hits with it. This is true with most weapons.

I disagree - that's not "true with most weapons". From what I have seen, shotguns have consistently lower damage than almost any handgun (maybe better than a rubbish .38 w/o AP rounds, but that's about it), and most certainly lower than _ANYTHING_ better. Short range? Decent handgun or SMG is far better. Long range - you'd be better off throwing rocks.

[Hard Sarge]

in real life, you use shotguns in close, dense areas (Jungles, huts, houses), Shotguns have about the same range as most pistols, and most people can hit a target with a Shotgun that they will miss with a pistol (Pistols take a lot of time and training to get good with, most people can't hit the side of a barn with a Pistol)

(I rated out High Expert with a Pistol and most other weapons, expert with rifle, the only thing I didn't rate highly with was the LAAW, but I do not think I was ever seen as being "normal")

in game, when close, or in tight areas, and got a few enemies in front of you, a shotgun is good, fire at there legs, and you can knock down all of them, depending on the spread, you can hit 3 to 5 guys with a shot (use buckshot)

if only one target, aim for the head and finish it off

in a pointblank fire, I would rather have Morah and her tripped out Uzi, but Dragon and his shutgun is 2nd

in my current game, I taking my time, and trying to see how well I can train my troops before the 2nd phase kicks in, and I still got a shotgun as a backup, also have a few pistols in my backpacks (that fancy shotgun should be showing up in the store shortly, or, with the Maruders i am about to ambush)

also odd, I don't really see any combat shotguns in the game, we got Military Shotguns, but not combat, most I seen were sawed off and doublebarrels, in game we got a lot of full size guns, that defeat the whole idea of the weapon

[Hard Sarge]

you want to use a shotgun at long range, go ahead, but most people in combat would be laffing at you, I think the Tangos in the game would be snickering too

you know there was a mistake with the ammo types ? with Buckshot being slug and slug being buckshot ?

the real trouble with the game is, it is too easy to use a pistol, when it is not that easy to do so in real life

[R@S]

As Hard Sarge said, they are useful if used correctly. I agree with that. I think that they are only useful in the beginning of the game. Is that better LimeyBugger? You can use another merc to first shoot off the helmet and then finish him off with the shotgun. It's waht I do when presented with this problem. Have you not noticed that you get more hits the longer you use a weapon? Then it could be one of my supersticions.

[LimeyBugger]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Pistols take a lot of time and training to get good with, most people can't hit the side of a barn with a Pistol

I'm not sure how this is relevant. After all, we're supposedly dealing with trained mercenaries, not some plonker picked up off the streets, right?

Anyone working as a mercenary should be trained in a variety of small arms - so I think this statement only serves to obfuscate the issue.

(I rated out High Expert with a Pistol and most other weapons, expert with rifle, the only thing I didn't rate highly with was the LAAW, but I do not think I was ever seen as being "normal")

*shrug* I've only used a .22 for shooting gophers on my grandfather's farm. Only fired a pistol once, and couldn't hit anything with it. I don't claim to be an expert in weapons, unless you're talking about staff or tonfa.

in game, when close, or in tight areas, and got a few enemies in front of you, a shotgun is good, fire at there legs, and you can knock down all of them, depending on the spread, you can hit 3 to 5 guys with a shot (use buckshot)

Grenade. Nuff said. Knocks them over and kills one. Shotgun isn't the "weapon of choice" in this case.

And for that matter, your merc is still toast, as the 3-5 guys pick themselves up and fill your shotgun toting merc full of lead.

Or better yet, every soldier's favorite weapon, his legs. Run and lead them into the barrels of your buddies.

if only one target, aim for the head and finish it off

Given the crappy hit rate in the game, a decent pistol is your friend - you can get off a couple of shots before you have to hit "end turn".

in a pointblank fire, I would rather have Morah and her tripped out Uzi, but Dragon and his shutgun is 2nd

Bizon with a knife. Far less likely that the poor bugger will be alive when he's done his APs.

As a second choice, I'd go with someone with a MAC-10 (seems to do much better damage). A burst or two will kill pretty much any opponent.

[LimeyBugger]

R@S,

Well, my main complaint about shotguns is that their usefulness in the game is _VERY_ short-lived. Once you can get your first shipment from DJ, you should be upgrading from it. That isn't to say that shotguns are _ENTIRELY_ useless - just that their usefulness is so narrow that it's not really worth mentioning.

Take this in contrast to JA2, where a shotgun could consistently deal out horrific damage at close range, making them quite handy for about 1/2 the game - using them when sneaking around buildings at night. They had a discernible purpose in the game, where in HG, they're more of a "oh crap, I don't have any ammo for anything else - better give him something".

In HG, even as a backup weapon, shotguns are pretty poor. Heavy and take up a double-slot in the backpack. Compare that with a decent pistol, and I'm sure most people would agree that a Colt Python is far more useful for those unexpected close encounters, than a shotgun.

To clarify, they're not _ENTIRELY_ useless. Sure, they can have _SOME_ use. But given the game mechanics, you're better off with a decent pistol in nearly every case.

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: LimeyBugger

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Pistols take a lot of time and training to get good with, most people can't hit the side of a barn with a Pistol

I'm not sure how this is relevant. After all, we're supposedly dealing with trained mercenaries, not some plonker picked up off the streets, right?

Anyone working as a mercenary should be trained in a variety of small arms - so I think this statement only serves to obfuscate the issue.

if you have followed any of my posts, you know I don't think that of these guys could get a job as a Merk, I don't think half of them could get a job as a night watchmen, but as to your point, it takes a lot of training and skill to be good with a Pistol, takes a afternoon or two to get good with a shotgun

(I rated out High Expert with a Pistol and most other weapons, expert with rifle, the only thing I didn't rate highly with was the LAAW, but I do not think I was ever seen as being "normal")

*shrug* I've only used a .22 for shooting gophers on my grandfather's farm. Only fired a pistol once, and couldn't hit anything with it. I don't claim to be an expert in weapons, unless you're talking about staff or tonfa.


well, I was rated as High Expert with some of these, and Expert with most of the rest, so am saying from what I know about using them, but this is a game, still it should be based on what really happens, not what happens in the movies or in somebodies mind

in game, when close, or in tight areas, and got a few enemies in front of you, a shotgun is good, fire at there legs, and you can knock down all of them, depending on the spread, you can hit 3 to 5 guys with a shot (use buckshot)

Grenade. Nuff said. Knocks them over and kills one. Shotgun isn't the "weapon of choice" in this case.

your a fool then (in real life, game you can get away with it, since you can reload)

And for that matter, your merc is still toast, as the 3-5 guys pick themselves up and fill your shotgun toting merc full of lead.

they havn't gotten my Merks yet

Or better yet, every soldier's favorite weapon, his legs. Run and lead them into the barrels of your buddies.

I don't believe in running, not how I was trained or bought up, but so saying, I also believe in supporting my team members, so if you see one, there is another one near by

if only one target, aim for the head and finish it off

Given the crappy hit rate in the game, a decent pistol is your friend - you can get off a couple of shots before you have to hit "end turn".

odd, I don't seem to have the lousy firing skills that you do, my guys tend to hit there targets when they are close

first map, I got 2 kills with first shot, and got a cripple with the guy inside the hut with the 2nd, one run, Venom, put 3 rounds into a guys head at point blank range, only to have him turn and shoot her

still, I think this go down into play style, I can get kills with the shotgun, so use it, you don't like it, so you don't use it

in a pointblank fire, I would rather have Morah and her tripped out Uzi, but Dragon and his shutgun is 2nd

Bizon with a knife. Far less likely that the poor bugger will be alive when he's done his APs.

as I said, play style, I don't like using knifes, but I can agree with it

As a second choice, I'd go with someone with a MAC-10 (seems to do much better damage). A burst or two will kill pretty much any opponent.

I like the Uzi better, the MAC don't seem to do the damage it should, and you get a better burst rate out of it

which also as has been said, once you start running into Guardsmen, all bets are off, those guys are armored tanks, I put 2 7.62x39 and 4 5.56x45's into one guy, only to drop him to bad

[Hard Sarge]

In HG, even as a backup weapon, shotguns are pretty poor. Heavy and take up a double-slot in the backpack. Compare that with a decent pistol, and I'm sure most people would agree that a Colt Python is far more useful for those unexpected close encounters, than a shotgun.

To clarify, they're not _ENTIRELY_ useless. Sure, they can have _SOME_ use. But given the game mechanics, you're better off with a decent pistol in nearly every case.

still have to say, it depends on play style and what you want or believe in, some people are going to be hunting and buying the next best pistol every time it shows up, others are going to stick with what they like, or have had some luck with, same with Rifles or assult Rifles or sniper Rifles

I am about ready to take the base and the palace, I just now dropped the Odd Russian Sniper rifle you can buy at the beginning (and that is only because, I found a Val, and the guy with the Rifle is not really set up to be a crack shot)

my guy, had that weapon to start with, and then found a better more modern rifle so handed it down (washanving trouble finding ammo for it too) in fact, most of my troops have the weapon I picked for them at start (IE I had the weapon when I hired them)

most times, when I change out weapons, it is more based on ammo, then on what the weapon does or doesn't do

to be honest, in this kind of fighting, I wouldn't want a shotgun either, road to the airport is the only map that I think it really would be much use as a primary weapon

[LimeyBugger]

if you have followed any of my posts, you know I don't think that of these guys could get a job as a Merk, I don't think half of them could get a job as a night watchmen

I miss the good ole JA2 days of Gasket, Biff, Flo and Razor. Mercenaries who didn't give any illusions as to their qualifications.

but as to your point, it takes a lot of training and skill to be good with a Pistol, takes a afternoon or two to get good with a shotgun

Hrm... makes me wonder about the London Met coppers. 7 shots in the head to take down a nefarious Brazilian Arab terrorist. I really wish they'd have published how many times they MISSED.

Grenade. Nuff said. Knocks them over and kills one. Shotgun isn't the "weapon of choice" in this case.

your a fool then (in real life, game you can get away with it, since you can reload)

Er... ok, I've killed one and done a decent amount of damage to his buddies. Compared to your shotgun, which knocks them over, but leaves them with little more than bruises and scratches. I'm the fool?

And for that matter, your merc is still toast, as the 3-5 guys pick themselves up and fill your shotgun toting merc full of lead.

they havn't gotten my Merks yet

That's only because you can reload.

Or better yet, every soldier's favorite weapon, his legs. Run and lead them into the barrels of your buddies.

I don't believe in running, not how I was trained or bought up, but so saying, I also believe in supporting my team members, so if you see one, there is another one near by

I can't even begin to guess who trained you. Running away is a pretty standard infantry tactic - FM 7-85 (Ranger Handbook) - 6-1,c,2 - "(2) If the enemy does make contact, the security element then engages the enemy, trying to deceive him as to the size of the ranger force and its direction of movement. After breaking contact, the security force divides into small groups and moves to a rally point to rejoin the main force.". Without going into details, the Ranger methodology is to basically "choose the time and place" of any engagement. If they don't like that engagement, then they basically shoot-and-scoot away.

Yes, it's official doctrine of the US Army Rangers to "run away". I don't know who trained you, but your training seems to be in contrast with Ranger training - and most special forces I've read about. Maybe small unit tactics isn't a big part of supply depot training.

which also as has been said, once you start running into Guardsmen, all bets are off, those guys are armored tanks, I put 2 7.62x39 and 4 5.56x45's into one guy, only to drop him to bad

Guardsmen are nuts. Generally I found that I need 2-3 mercs firing on one to have a fair chance of killing him. That's with end-game equipment. I think it was a cop-out on the part of the developers. Rather than put more work into their AI or map design, they just made them armoured juggernauts.

[Hard Sarge]

yes, if you think the right choice is to toss a nade when you standing next to someone, they yes you are a fool

and I am a Marine, we don't run away like the rangers and we don't believe in that kind of training, you run, you normally die, and for the area you are talking about, that is not combat training, we are assult troops, shock troops, we fight (when I got out, I was recuited by the Army, I could join the Rangers as soon as I signed the paper, any Ranger would have to go though training and pass bootcamp to become a Marine)

but as I am trying to say, the Green hat guys, and the Rangers are not set up to fight toe to toe, that is not there job, that is our job, and before you try to get smart again, I was also trained by the Green hats, so I know there style also (the Green hats preach that unless you are setting up a raid, if you have to fire your weapon, somebody screwed up)

but back to the point, last battle just fought/played, my shotgun did 10 points of damage to the target, while my 7.62 and 5.56 both did 2 points, which to be honest, none of them made me very happy, but combined they worn the guy out