discussion on first-turn-Italy-join strategy and how to balance it

[Forwarn45]

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

In Total War, I think this is a catastrophe for the Germans. Rumania would be stuck as a Neutral if I am not mistaken (am I mistaken? how would you turn Rumania German?).

Rumania will join the Axis when the Germans take out the Allied Yugoslavia - so it's not so bad as far as that's concerned. That's why I suggested the Allies may want to take care of Rumania in a preemptive fashion.

[Lucky1]

Schury, I am curious as to what you think the primary advantage of the strategy is - is it to attack S France? Or is it the possible demise of France a turn early (given the need to defend two flanks)? Or is it bringing the Balkans online early?

I am not entirely sold on the benefit of losing Vichy or loosing the French fleet in the Med (a serious downside). However, knocking France out early and getting the balkans quickly is a definite plus.  I am not sure how I would weigh possible damage to Rumania. On the one-hand, there is the loss of militia, air etc. On the other hand, there is the possibility that the attacking WA troops will also be lost and there is the damage to WA WR levels. Leaves me a bit equivocal, I guess.

(On the gamey side of things,  I think that if you take Tunisia you will still keep the territory (and the strategic benefit it brings) when Vichy is declared, so that is a slight advantage of the strategy.)

If there are no other takers, I guess I would be game for a AAR. Although not of Forwarn's skill (as he has shown me three times), I consider myself to have improved a fair amount in the past couple months....

If you are interested, send me your opener (sean_mcluckie@yahoo.ca)

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: Forwarn45

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead
In Total War, I think this is a catastrophe for the Germans. Rumania would be stuck as a Neutral if I am not mistaken (am I mistaken? how would you turn Rumania German?).

Rumania will join the Axis when the Germans take out the Allied Yugoslavia - so it's not so bad as far as that's concerned. That's why I suggested the Allies may want to take care of Rumania in a preemptive fashion.

Ahh yes, how'd I miss that?

In Total War, then, a good Allied approach is to refuse Yugoslavia's entry into the WA. It would freeze Rumania out: the adjacent region status check only applies when you *DOW* a neutral (not every time you attack), or *capture* an enemy region. By keeping it neutral (and already at war since the first turn), no status check would apply for Rumania.

This approach doesn't work so well for the Allies in Global Glory, however.

[schury]

Taking italy earlier is a great improvement. It wholely changed the stereotype opening. I believe this bring me the super advantage. We can do alot. Like take the whole africa, Attack russia early. Attack turkey and secure the whole balkan. There're lots of posibilities that depends on foes' reactions, so that I can't list them all.
That's why i think a great AAR will help. If a top player can't afford it, how could you deny the huge advantages it brought? I think the strategy is inconvincible. Talks can't conquer the Aaxis[:D]
Is forwarn avaliable for an AAR? Try to tell yourself this, It's like playing a new game as usual, just with my brag and boast in advance. There's nothing you should worried or inquired now. I guess everybody would really apprecaite it. We need more great AARs to bring this forum back to thrive. Let's contribute[;)]

[schury]

I appreciate it that you would try. But I would like to fight some one like forwarn if you don't mind. Some of my friends like xianing, zhao, had fought you decent battles. No offense, but I really need some one that is very powerful to feel the wrath of the AXIS, which would make the outcome more convincing

ORIGINAL: Lucky1

Schury, I am curious as to what you think the primary advantage of the strategy is - is it to attack S France? Or is it the possible demise of France a turn early (given the need to defend two flanks)? Or is it bringing the Balkans online early?

I am not entirely sold on the benefit of losing Vichy or loosing the French fleet in the Med (a serious downside). However, knocking France out early and getting the balkans quickly is a definite plus.  I am not sure how I would weigh possible damage to Rumania. On the one-hand, there is the loss of militia, air etc. On the other hand, there is the possibility that the attacking WA troops will also be lost and there is the damage to WA WR levels. Leaves me a bit equivocal, I guess.

(On the gamey side of things,  I think that if you take Tunisia you will still keep the territory (and the strategic benefit it brings) when Vichy is declared, so that is a slight advantage of the strategy.)

If there are no other takers, I guess I would be game for a AAR. Although not of Forwarn's skill (as he has shown me three times), I consider myself to have improved a fair amount in the past couple months....

If you are interested, send me your opener (sean_mcluckie@yahoo.ca)

[Lucky1]

Beggars can't be choosers..... [:)]  My offer stands if you get no volunteers....
 

[schury]

ORIGINAL: Lucky1

Beggars can't be choosers..... [:)] My offer stands if you get no volunteers....

That only proves I am not a begger but a challenger. You lost to my prentice who played this game for just serval weeks. So it's fair I wanna find some one good. Do not take it as an offense. I just gonna make the oucome be more convincing as I mentioned. But if you wanna fight zhao, I can give him your address. I am sure he can give you a fairly good game experiance. Again, thanks for your interest.

[Lucky1]

No offence was taken (hence the happy face)! If Zhao is interested, I would gladly play.  If I lost to him, I sure that was several months ago and I sure to give him a better run this time (I hope!). I am just glad to play. Hopefully, you get your AAR....
 
Cheers,
 
Sean

[schury]

hopefully, some one good dare to fight me...

[runyan99]

Your prentice?

[Forwarn45]

I was going to play schury to check this out - but after he sent me the first turn and I saw the Axis position, I emailed him to say I agreed with him. The problem is the Allies can't reinforce South France before Mussolini attacks because it remains frozen (unless they declare war on Italy). With the Germans being able to paradrop into South France to help out the Italians - it will amost certainly be "game over" for France in Fall of '39. A couple units should be added to South France to counter this.

[schury]

Thanks man for the back up, my respect.
So if anyone still think this is not a super strategy that totally change the way the game was, just give it a shot against me, you are more than welcome, too, lucky.

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: Forwarn45
I was going to play schury to check this out - but after he sent me the first turn and I saw the Axis position, I emailed him to say I agreed with him. The problem is the Allies can't reinforce South France before Mussolini attacks because it remains frozen (unless they declare war on Italy). With the Germans being able to paradrop into South France to help out the Italians - it will amost certainly be "game over" for France in Fall of '39. A couple units should be added to South France to counter this.

Thank you for the concise description of what the actual problem is.

I'll make the disposition of S France in Total War look the same as it is in Global Glory.

[schury]

i mentioned this in the forth post. I wonder if that is a concise description......if you really wanna know what's going on, just spend several precious precious mins to play and seek for yourself, first turn try and error won't take you long, Like i said, talk can't solve everything. just after 3 mins' play. we come to an accord. and then you noticed what I mean earlier.

[Lucky1]

S France being frozen is a major hindrance! (WH - I would insert my usual refrain about the timing of political events). This additional bit of detail eluded me when the post was brought up (This whole debate would have been easier if Schury had said that he could guarantee the fall of France in September 39!).
 
1) On the subject of gamey strategies, I have noted that a WA attack on Norway can sometimes make Yugo pro-Axis (don't know the odds offhand). Insofar that Yugo seems to be the weak link, maybe it could have lower volatility and make a political event for the coup (a la Global Glory).
 
2) Although I don't really play stock AWD, I seem to recall that in Total War there is only one French troop in N Africa prior to surrender, but three subsequent to Vichy. Perhaps there should be three frozen troops in N Africa as well....
 
Question: what happens to the French fleets and possessions in the rest of the world when S France is taken?
 
Schury - I am still game to be a whipping boy for public demonstration of the strat. I can't say I have a lot of emotional investment in wins/losses (or I would not volunteer to be allies as often as I do), so it won't bother me to lose in public.... Plus, I think AARs keep interest in the community and are a good way to teach new players. It can be fun to dissect a game after the fact to identify critical issues etc. So, if you still have the time/interest in early Feb (when I am back from holiday), send me an email.
 
 
 
 
 

[schury]

OK, you are right, i'll fight you, and hopefully you can devoted to the AAR to demonstrate to the others. The first turn sent.HF,GL

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: schury
i mentioned this in the forth post. I wonder if that is a concise description......if you really wanna know what's going on, just spend several precious precious mins to play and seek for yourself, first turn try and error won't take you long, Like i said, talk can't solve everything. just after 3 mins' play. we come to an accord. and then you noticed what I mean earlier.

It was concise to the point of terseness I'm afraid, and not clear. You didn't mention that it is still frozen and defenseless against the forces Germany can throw at it before the WA player can even react.

I do fire it up, but you could be more detailed and forthcoming. Try something like

0. Total War
1. Germany attacks Yugo
2. Italy joins Axis - pending next German turn
3. S France is frozen with 1 infantry, unable to reinforce
4. next turn, S France is defenseless against 2 mil and a para trooper

When I look at this, I tend to look at Global Glory, which was my downfall here. So far as I know there is no problem in Global Glory.

Clear concise detailed talk actually is the fastest way to resolve this, when forwarn45 explained I knew immediately exactly what he meant.

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: Lucky1
1) On the subject of gamey strategies, I have noted that a WA attack on Norway can sometimes make Yugo pro-Axis (don't know the odds offhand). Insofar that Yugo seems to be the weak link, maybe it could have lower volatility and make a political event for the coup (a la Global Glory).

Hmm, in Total War that would work nicely to the Allied advantage. I changed the Yugo coup event a little.

ORIGINAL: Lucky1
2) Although I don't really play stock AWD, I seem to recall that in Total War there is only one French troop in N Africa prior to surrender, but three subsequent to Vichy. Perhaps there should be three frozen troops in N Africa as well....

Question: what happens to the French fleets and possessions in the rest of the world when S France is taken?

All French units disappear regardless of location, except naval units which have a 20% chance of moving to England (strictly speaking, they are reincarnated in England, something noone would never if I hadn't added the unit data view, which will not reflect their earlier life).

[schury]

yes, i got your point. But as a responsible staff, I would double check every problem myself instead of just the statement given by particular player. I just try to give you a hint. i didn't know you need all details.

[Lucky1]

WH - might it be possible to make Yugo's volatility 0 (or make the volatility 0 for the first two turns)? My reasoning would be that given the crucial nature of Yugo and the diplomatic domino effect she causes, this would eliminate most of the benefit of this exploit.  If I understand diplomacy correctly (not a sure thing), the Balkans would only have a chance of swinging if Yugo were pro-allied. Would this not be the case for Italy as well? Too, it would protect against a Yugo pro-axis swing if the WA invade Norway on the first turn (as was historically contemplated)....