Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours)

[LimeyBugger]

I would like to see a couple of things:

1. replace the localization team. Translations are at times incomprehensible. I don't know who did the English translations for the game, but I suspect they spent far too much of their salary on vodka.

2. stability and performance issues. I believe Matrix has enough dumps to identify the worst offending crashes. Seeing the same crashes after another patch will be very disappointing. If the developers ever want to grow beyond a niche market, they're going to have to take stability and performance testing _BEFORE_ release far more seriously.

3. more reasonable implementation of interrupts. Developers can refer to JA2 for ideas if they're lost.

4. alarm notifications (guards alerting others) needs to be implemented to allow for "ninja kills" - as it stands, it's 90% a slug-fest, where you do your best to fight from where you enter. There isn't very much in the way of sneaking around to a position of choice before starting combat.

4a. night fighting - related to 4, so a sub-section. There's a clock, and I can't see any reason why night fighting can't be implemented. Not just as a visibility range parameter - but a real change on the maps, where lit and unlit areas make a real difference. Again, refer to JA2, This might require some map work, but I can't see it being too onerous.

5. hidden goodies. Seriously - how many JA2 players can remember prying or picking every single box, locker and crate for whatever hidden goodie they might contain - regardless of whether or not it was actually needed. There's probably some Pavlovian explanation to it, but prying open every single container seemed to be a common pastime.

6. documentation of as much of the modding parameters as possible, as well as a (perhaps command line?) system of using alternate mods without wholesale replacement of files. This has been done reasonably well with MTW2, where modders can put together specific packages - each of which can be used independently of others without file-swapping.

7. economics - reduce the reliance on sector income. Selling opponent drops would make it more rewarding to the player to actively raid and engage, rather than taking a few profitable sectors, piling up the guards, and engaging enemies only as necessary. As it stands, there's no reward for raiding or actively defending (ie: pulling back and letting the NPC guards defend).

8. probably outside the scope of a patch, but releasing some of the dev tools would almost assuredly extend the life of the (or next, if they survive) game. I don't think I have to point out the number of games whose lives have been dramatically extended due to the ability of the mod community to turn out their own maps, graphics, etc. OK, perhaps I need an example - look at NWN - a pretty mundane game by any account, had its life stretched out for years due to their allowing the mod community to extensively script and alter the base product. How many games of NWN's age do you _STILL_ see on the shelves?

[Edgewise]

I'll add another vote for adding night.  Additionally, make improvements take time to be implimented, I mean how long does it take to put in a new generator at the damn? I'd say months or years irl, more for some backwater in Africa.  We could do a couple weeks in the game, perhaps just fixing one that's there instead of putting in a new one which would cost millions and require a partial rebuild of the damn.  I think you get the idea?   Make counter attacks bigger, better, and more common.  Look hard at Reinforce's mod.  I would have quit the game after my first run-through which took about 2 days if not for that mod making me think there is hope for the game so long as people keep working on it. 
 
Allow mercs to climb through windows, switch places with NPC's, or eachother, costing AP as if each moved independant of the other.  Defending the damn, I've been blocked from going over the small bridge several times by a NPC going half way over and crouching when he saw an enemy way across the map.
 
Change the character creation process!  Rather than a quizz, just give people an additional 40 points, charge 20 points per skill, 10 per positive personality trait and -10 for negative traits.  Be creative, add stuff. -50 for a deaf Merc. +20 for exceptional hearing, exceptional health, etc. -25 for a partially lame merc who can only walk, not run.  As it is, you can't take certain combos, and some abilities are not available at all like camo.
 
Again I'll add a vote for better AI, the AI is really really awful.  If they took cover or just went prone after firing/being fired at, this would make a huge difference.  When one comes under fire, he should call his friends to his location so they don't sit spread all over the map allowing you to pick them off with a silenced weapon one at a time while they stand there stupidly.  Give the soldiers wearing uniforms a camo bonus of 25 or so.  For every 10 soldiers (not militia), have one with a sniper rifle and good accuracy who will try to shoot from far away, one with a machine gun and auto fire skill, one with a heavy weapon and heavy weapon skill.  RPG's are as common as dirt in some parts of Africa, no reason the dictators troops shouldn't have a bunch.  Additionally, one sarge with high stats and an assault rifle, one officer with good stats and a pistol, the other 5 troops with SMG's and assault rifles.  All of the regular troops (soldiers) should have a grenade they can throw. Guards should be similar but better.
 
Weapon distribution: Militia should have a mix of low-end and old equipment, much as they do in the game.  Pistols, rifles, cheap SMG's, rarely assault rifles.  They should not have desert eagles or calico SMG's or calico AR's.  I'd be surprised if there are ANY calico's in all of Africa outside the private collections or private security forces of a few wealthy people in South Africa.  Possibly mercs would use these, but they should be rare, not 20% of all AR's dropped in the game.  It is a very cool gun but seriously, you can buy an AK variant for a lot less money, and they're very common anyplace where there is war or dictators.  Soldiers should use standard military weapons, but not the bleeding edge stuff imo. AKM's, AK-74's, RPK-74's, RPG's, the occasional western assault rifle, 9x18 pistols.  Red dot sights should be reserved for the Elite troops, along with AK-100 series weapons, caseless ammo SMG's, 50 cal sniper rifles, uber heavy weapons, etc.
 
Body armor in general works better in this game than in reality. Make armor get damaged more easily and not be repairable.  How do you repair a hole in kevlar? You buy another one.  Needle and thread aint gonna cut it.  Any weapon damaged beyond 50% should be broke to the point that it's junk and can't be fixed with a screw driver.  Unless you got a machine shop in your back pocket to fabricate a new part... Maybe a new NPC could be added who can fix even the most damaged gear because he just happens to have all kinds of stuff in his factory.  But you gotta do him some 'favors' or pay him a ton to get him on your side.  Decrease the amount of damage body armor prevents when it is not penetrated, increase the amount of stamina you lose when getting hit and the body armor is not penetrated.  I'd also say increase all weapon damage in general by about 50% or maybe 100%.  It should be at least 50% likely that 1 shot from an AR to the torso will put them to critical, dying, or dead on an average unprotected target.  I don't think that the game damage is even close to that.  Head shots to an unprotected target should be 75% fatal imo from any weapon. Even with a helmet, you should have a 30-45% chance of getting hit in the face/neck. 
 
Alot of the weapons are a bit off on damage, range, AP cost etc in relation to other weapons in what almost seems a sort of arbitrary and slightly random way of assigning values.  Let's use the M1 rifle as our starting point because it's the first rifle you can get for free assuming you don't immediately start a fight with the soldiers like I do. It has an assigned AP of 7, damage of 22, range of 75, weight of 4.32 lbs.  Using any modern .30-06 cartridge, it should outrange almost any assault rifle, but it doesn't. Remember, back in the first half of the 20th century, rifles were built for range.  Most WW-I and II rifles are accurate at 1KM or more, and most modern sniper rifles are derivatives of these early weapons.  The M1 was considered great at 400m if in the right hands.  Most assault rifles are great to 200-300m.  So range-wise, I think alot of rifles are gimped in the game.  Also, alot of 'sniper' rifles seem to do proportionally more damage than they should, like it's classification magically improves it's lethality.  Some sniper rifles have suped up cartridges that do indeed hit with tremendous force, but alot of the 'sniper' rifles are just rifles... with a scope. 
 
I've fired M-16A1's, A2's, and A4's, and AR-15's.  I've also fired AK-47's and owned an SKS until I moved away from Texas and had to leave it behind. I have alot of good things to say about soviet firearms, but how the AK's have a lower AP is baffling to me.  I could buy giving them higher damage, great reliability, low cost,  better armor penetration... But the AP on the M-16's should be lower. The M-16's are lighter, have a better center of gravity, and less recoil.  The basic M-16 battle-sights are super easy to use.  The M-16 is fast aiming and low recoil, and generally beats most AR's in those reguards, so giving it a higher AP than an AKM and 50% higher AP than the AK-100's is just off.  I could go on here for a very long time, but I guess I'll just say you guys should take a second look at many of the weapon stats.
 
Lasers... I don't get how a laser increases your range.  Imo it should be more like an auto aim feature that gives you a free 2-3 points of aiming or so and only works out to a range of about 20.  A tiny deviation in allignment will make the laser useless at longer ranges unless you can calibrate it very well, and even then the bullet trajectory won't follow the beam.  These are useful in close quarters so you don't have to take any time aiming when charging through a door, and that's about it. Oh... and movies, hollywood likes to put them on for the 'cool' effect.  For this reason, I recommend restricting them to Pistols, SMG's, and shotguns.  Give them the added negative of -30 camo when equiped too, since the dancing laser light show might well give you away.
 
Get rid of HP ammo for high powered (Rifle, assault rifle, sniper rifle) cartridges.  Many manufacturers have tried/are trying to come up with a high velocity HP type bullet, so far none have worked out afaik.  The standard high velocity rounds are plenty deadly just like they are, and exploding bullets designed for exploding in human targets are banned by international law.  Get rid of all but AP ammo for caseless ammo, as those weapons and the ammo they use is designed specifically to be armor piercing, and no non-armor piercing ammo variants would even work in them.  Also, get rid of damage negatives for AP.  AP rounds have a steel core and are expensive to make, but generally have just as much mass and velocity as standard rounds if not more.  They should be very costly because of how they are manufactured and also because they are illegal virtually everywhere outside of military/police use.
 
I'll stop now...
 
 
 
 

[Reinforce]

Allow mercs to climb through windows

They can, I've done it afew times. I look sweet doing it too here's a screen shot.




Much Love,
Reinforce

[Edgewise]

*GASP* Ok, how?   when I try they just walk around through the door.  In JA1 and 2 there was a button that would jump onto/over/through stuff when you were next to it, so you could jump over a short fence, through a window, onto a box or roof when and how you wanted.  Now it's kinda random, tell a guy to climb onto the roof, he walks over, jumps on a box, jumps off the box, turns around jumps back on the box then finally jumps onto the roof.  I tell my guy to go through the window, he walks around over to the door, through the building, then over to the other side of the window.  

[Reinforce]

Did you shoot the window out? If it's there you can't go threw it. I had blasted this window out with gunfire awhile befor hand and dove in for cover. Seems to be a size issue on some windows too. Can't dive threw the little ones.
 
Much Love,
Reinforce

[LimeyBugger]

ORIGINAL: Edgewise
...so you could jump over a short fence, through a window, onto a box or roof when and how you wanted.

I feel your pain. Just went back to re-take a sector. One of the houses had a merc (no longer in my employ) in it, and I wanted to come around the far side of the house. The idea was to come in through the back door and blast him, since he seemed to be content to stay in the front room.

Alas, the house was surrounded by a little garden fence - the only opening in which was leading up the front walk.

My devious flanking move foiled by a 3-foot tall picket fence. I cursed my mercenary's combat training. Auto weapons - check. Pistols - check. Explosives - check. First aid - check. Hopping picket fences... er... "sorry boss - SAS training just didn't cover picket fences. Look at those pointy wooden pickets. I don't dare hop it!" [X(]

I ended up blowing out the front of the house (and the merc inside) with a RPG.

Damn those picket fences. Centuries of military knowledge crammed into the training of a modern soldier - and they overlooked fences. Good thing the terrorists don't know. Otherwise, they'd sneak up to the army bases at night and stealthily erect garden fences. TVs would stand helplessly outside as the soldiers slowly starved to death, unable to escape their heinous prison.

Get rid of HP ammo for high powered (Rifle, assault rifle, sniper rifle) cartridges. Many manufacturers have tried/are trying to come up with a high velocity HP type bullet, so far none have worked out afaik.

Actually, it seems they have -
http://www.remington.com/products/ammun ... e-Lokt.asp

For every 10 soldiers (not militia), have one with a sniper rifle and good accuracy who will try to shoot from far away

I'm not sure I get this. You're complaining about the lack of Calicos in RL Africa - but you're quite happy that 10% of the soldiers are walking around with a Dragunov, M-24 or perhaps even a .50 cal M-82? I think you're contradicting yourself here - you want weapon rarity (or prevalence in 3rd world usage) to be reflected in HG.... but you suggest this? Or do you really think sniper rifles are _THAT COMMON_? Do you really think they're _THAT COMMON_ in a 3rd world military (who are for the most part still using WW2 gear)?

(AP ammo) should be very costly because of how they are manufactured and also because they are illegal virtually everywhere outside of military/police use.

I'm not clear on what your complaint is. But I can only assume you mean:
1. AP ammunition is too cheap in HG
DJ sells .38 AP ammo for $10 - that's $10 PER SHELL. You don't think that's already a little "over market value" for AP ammunition? 12x70 buckshot ammo (yes, very rare) for about $$8.50 each - that's reasonable? I agree that prices need some looking at - but for every example of "too cheap" you can point out, I'm sure I can point out something that's "insanely expensive". Granted, ammo prices need work - but "AP is too cheap" as a blanket statement, isn't reasonable imo.

2. AP ammo is rare because it's restricted to military/police
I somehow suspect Dickie Jay isn't too worried about vetting his customers. So as to the first part of your argument that they're illegal - well, ask yourself if either he or his clients would really care.

Considering he also sells RPGs, dynamite, grenade launchers - ya, I think it's reasonable to assume he has access to "military/police" supply channels. So what's your complaint?

[Edgewise]

Actually, it seems they have -
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/centerfire/core-Lokt.asp

 
I -really- want to see the performance stats on those rounds.  I suspect they are not high velocity, particularly from the description of the copper thickness.  Could be wrong though... Let me know if you can find more info on those please.
 

I'm not sure I get this. You're complaining about the lack of Calicos in RL Africa - but you're quite happy that 10% of the soldiers are walking around with a Dragunov, M-24 or perhaps even a .50 cal M-82? I think you're contradicting yourself here - you want weapon rarity (or prevalence in 3rd world usage) to be reflected in HG.... but you suggest this? Or do you really think sniper rifles are _THAT COMMON_? Do you really think they're _THAT COMMON_ in a 3rd world military (who are for the most part still using WW2 gear)? 

 
What exactly do you consider to be a sniper rifle?  A springfield M1903 (standard infantry weapon in WW1, standard sniper rifle in WW2, and still in limited military use today) with a scope is deadly at 1KM.  You don't need a Druganov, M-24, or .50 cal, you didn't read my whole post I think.  A 'sniper' rifle is just a rifle... with a scope.  the vast majority of modern sniper rifles are derivatives of WW1/WW2 battle rifles carried by typical infantry troops.  Eventually it was realized that the average soldier was not engaging targets beyond 200 meters, so modern military weapons are typically accurate to 200-300 meters.  Lighter cartridges with new deadlier ammo allows smaller grain projectiles to still be very effective, but now the soldier can carry 3-4 times as much ammo, and put more rounds down range in less time with low recoil weapons.  The next time you look at a sniper rifle however, consider that a couple generations ago, almost every soldier had a weapon that could be made into a sniper rifle simply by putting a scope on it.  So if they use WW2 gear then -YES- they'd have sniper rifles. Some WW2 main battle rifles were accurate to 2KM! That particular rifle was also about 6 feet long however, not very practical but I think you get the idea. Older rifles = Longer range and bigger cartridge.
 

I'm not clear on what your complaint is. But I can only assume you mean:
1. AP ammunition is too cheap in HG
DJ sells .38 AP ammo for $10 - that's $10 PER SHELL. You don't think that's already a little "over market value" for AP ammunition? 12x70 buckshot ammo (yes, very rare) for about $$8.50 each - that's reasonable? I agree that prices need some looking at - but for every example of "too cheap" you can point out, I'm sure I can point out something that's "insanely expensive". Granted, ammo prices need work - but "AP is too cheap" as a blanket statement, isn't reasonable imo. 
 
2. AP ammo is rare because it's restricted to military/police
I somehow suspect Dickie Jay isn't too worried about vetting his customers. So as to the first part of your argument that they're illegal - well, ask yourself if either he or his clients would really care.

It should be more... considerably more for military grade AP rounds. Partly because they are expensive to make and partly because they are illegal and black market exchanges add considerably to the cost.  So dickie Jay isn't worried about vetting his customers... that doesn't change the fact that he's gotta buy it through illegal channels.  Who cares about his customers?  I'm talking about how much he has to pay to get them in the first place.  As for buckshot ammo, I wasn't looking at that at all as AP.  It completely fails to be AP.  I have no idea why you'd even mention it in a conversation about AP.  I'm talking about steel/tungsten/carbide core rounds. Not tipped, not FMJ, not tracer, not ball, and not buckshot.  I'm talking about bullets that cut through any existing body armor like a cotton t-shirt. Most high velocity rounds will do this already at close range, but I'm talking about bullets effective at medium and long ranges. Again, I'm thinking you either did not read my entire post or are very selectively responding to it.
 

  Considering he also sells RPGs, dynamite, grenade launchers - ya, I think it's reasonable to assume he has access to "military/police" supply channels. So what's your complaint?

RPG's are made very cheap by many countries that will sell them litterally to anyone with cash.  -You- yes you can go to China (assuming you have the cash) and buy an RPG -and- something to shoot it at, -and- a military operator there showing you exactly how to use it.  This is not illegal or black market, but completely endorsed/encouraged by the Chinese military and government. Grenade launchers... well RPG is a grenade launcher, (RPG stands for rocket propelled grenade) and Dynamite is commercially available everywhere, even in countries without running water.  AP rounds are not.  I'm don't know if I can justify or explain the cosmic reasonning for this, it simply is the way it is.

[LimeyBugger]

ORIGINAL: Edgewise

I -really- want to see the performance stats on those rounds. I suspect they are not high velocity, particularly from the description of the copper thickness. Could be wrong though... Let me know if you can find more info on those please.

Dammit - I had a page with some serious testing. But I found this - might give some insight.

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/mar96premium.html

Pretty old article - hard to say what things are like now.

*edit*
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

I think that has most of what you might be looking for.

What exactly do you consider to be a sniper rifle?

Single shot, long barreled rifle, generally. FN-FAL is kind of in a grey area for that due to its characteristics. In general, a rifle designed for long-range engagements. M1, yes, comes under that description. Pity they gave 30-06 sich pitiful damage.

...because they (AP ammunition) are expensive to make and partly because they are illegal and black market exchanges add considerably to the cost.

Illegal in the USA - that doesn't necessarily apply to some banana republic, where they may be perfectly legal. Laws change quite a lot from one state to the next. Handguns are pretty common in the USA, but in countries like the UK or Iceland - well, good luck trying to get a license for one. AP ammunition? What's the laws regarding that in Sudan or Zimbabwe? It's quite plausible that they don't have any laws regarding AP ammunition.

My point here is that legal or illegal doesn't mean much where you're dealing with gun runners. It doesn't mean that it makes the product hard to get nor terribly expensive. Victor Bout is a prime example. He delivered helicopters, AA guns and armoured vehicles - all quite illegal for civilian use. If you look at the charges against him however, they're mainly financial related - the activities which got him in hot water were his supplying of "terrorists" (highly subjective term, I'm not touching that - by some definitions, we're playing terrorists in HG). Most of his activities were legal, or sufficiently gray that the authorities weren't bothered to do anything about them.

Heck - illegal is a subjective term. Most of these transactions were probably quite legal considering the laws of the states involved. What are the laws for arms export in BananaRepublic1 and the laws for imports in BananaRepublic2? Pretty murky area. You might note that the strongest international warrants against him are based on money laundering - financial matters, not his gun running.

Look at cocaine or other recreational drugs. Illegal? Yes. Hard to get? No. Hard to get in large quantities? Certainly not. Expensive? Well, I pay more per gram for printer ink. So no, not really expensive.

The price of these "illegal" goods is determined by the market. Victor Bout was a big fish in the gun running pond. That doesn't make him the only one. More competitors would drive the price down.

So dickie Jay isn't worried about vetting his customers... that doesn't change the fact that he's gotta buy it through illegal channels. Who cares about his customers?

Actually.... from what I understand of Victor Bout's dealings, most of what he gets is through perfectly legal channels. The problem is with who he sells it to.

Sale to Victor - legal
Sale from Victor to customer - not so legal
Handling of taxes for payment - clearly illegal - money laundering

Your argument is that it's "illegal" - but then you say "Who cares about his customers?". That's the whole point. The customer _DETERMINES_ the whole legality.

You're really confusing me.

I have no idea why you'd even mention it (buckshot) in a conversation about AP.

My point is that _ALL_ HG prices are out of whack. They need to be standardized, so it's not half the price to buy ammunition in one manner as opposed to another.

Grenade launchers... well RPG is a grenade launcher, (RPG stands for rocket propelled grenade)

RPG - "any hand-held, shoulder-launched anti-tank weapons capable of firing an unguided rocket equipped with an explosive warhead"

Grenade launcher - "launches a grenade with more accuracy, higher velocity and to greater distances than a soldier could throw it by hand"

Note the difference between "anti-tank rocket" and "grenade". A RPG is not a grenade launcher.

RPG's are made very cheap by many countries that will sell them litterally to anyone with cash.

You think that the same doesn't apply for AP ammunition?

Dynamite is commercially available everywhere, even in countries without running water.

It was one example in a list of items DJ sells, which would indicate that he's not restricted to civilian channels. Yes, it's "commercially available" - that doesn't mean "easy to get", however. Explosives tend to be far more tightly regulated than the AP ammunition you comment on.

-You- yes you can go to China (assuming you have the cash) and buy an RPG -and- something to shoot it at, -and- a military operator there showing you exactly how to use it.

Hold on - that's completely out of context. The activities you're talking about DO NOT involve you putting it in your bags to take home. You get to _SHOOT_ the weapon. Some businessman gets his rocks off seeing something go boom. That doesn't mean he has the right to take a few dozen back with him for the trip home. I've heard there's places in Russia where you can pay to shoot things from a tank. That doesn't mean you're going home with a T-80, tho.

Again, I'm thinking you either did not read my entire post or are very selectively responding to it.

I read it all. I simply responded to the bits I disagreed with. So yes, I'm responding selectively. If I didn't comment on it, I didn't have any disagreement (or missed it).

[Edgewise]

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/mar96premium.html
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

Good stuff.  What I was hoping for tbh was more like something demonstrating the muzzle velocity of the hollow points to determine if they are infact high velocity rounds.  The historical problem with HP rifle rounds has been making one that had the range and power of a normal cartridge.  The data the second chart shows for the 5.56 rounds are normal rounds btw.  All the small assault rifle rounds tumble on impact these days.

Single shot, long barreled rifle, generally. FN-FAL is kind of in a grey area for that due to its characteristics. In general, a rifle designed for long-range engagements. M1, yes, comes under that description. Pity they gave 30-06 sich pitiful damage.

So why would you say that militia having old weapons and sniper rifles would be contradictory?

Illegal in the USA -

Like it or not, the US is by far the place with the widest diversity of ammo manufacture on the planet.  I dunno of any other country where you can find AP ammo that is not manufactured exclusively for or in some cases by the military.  I'm sure there are private comanies someplace, but they would be very rare.  Buying weapons from a guy who got them at discount prices from military sources is a completely rational premise for mercs in HG, but you'd still be getting standard ball ammo afaik.  My knowledge of Russian ammo manufacture is far from extensive but I'm pretty sure you'll find their armories stuffed with typical ball and tracer rounds, not AP.  If you want to get steel core rounds for whatever personal use, I can't think of anyplace you could get them really except from US based suppliers.

RPG - "any hand-held, shoulder-launched anti-tank weapons capable of firing an unguided rocket equipped with an explosive warhead"

Grenade launcher - "launches a grenade with more accuracy, higher velocity and to greater distances than a soldier could throw it by hand"

Note the difference between "anti-tank rocket" and "grenade". A RPG is not a grenade launcher.

I have to disagree here and say Wiki has failed you.  RPG is a Rocket Propelled Grenade.  A LAW (Light Anti-tank Weapon) is a shoulder fired anti tank rocket, as is an AT-4 (Anti-Tank), as are a couple dozen other weapons that are -not- RPG's.  Some RPG ammo is shaped charge specifically designed to be armor penetrating, some is not at all usefull vs a tank, some is multi-purpose high explosive. Some is exotic/uncommon.  Anti tank hand-grenades and shaped charge 40mm rounds exist as well. A shaped charge RPG round is definitely used for poking holes in light armored vehicles or weak spots on tanks, but it's no less a grenade.  Tbh, the shaped charge variety of RPG-7 rounds is largely useless against most tanks and armored fighting vehicles, same with the LAW.  I remember watching an M2 AFV shrug off several RPG hits on live TV early in the US invasion of Iraq. Back in the 60's they were ok vs light armor, but today they're really not much use in an anti-armor role.  Great vs trucks, walls, bunkers, and infantry.

You think that the same doesn't apply for AP ammunition?

I've already laid out exactly what I think.  Insofar as all high velocity rounds are inately AP in nature, ap rounds are all over the place, the standard ammo for assault rifles everywhere.  If you want to differentiate steel/tungsten/carbide core penetrator rounds as 'AP' and standard rounds as just standard rounds, then yes, it would absolutely not apply to those rounds.

It was one example in a list of items DJ sells, which would indicate that he's not restricted to civilian channels. Yes, it's "commercially available" - that doesn't mean "easy to get", however. Explosives tend to be far more tightly regulated than the AP ammunition you comment on.

You would think that, but infact that is not the case. It is very easy to get or even make explosives.  That is not the case with the specialized core ammo I was describing.  It is not easy to make, or get.

Hold on - that's completely out of context. The activities you're talking about DO NOT involve you putting it in your bags to take home. You get to _SHOOT_ the weapon. Some businessman gets his rocks off seeing something go boom. That doesn't mean he has the right to take a few dozen back with him for the trip home. I've heard there's places in Russia where you can pay to shoot things from a tank. That doesn't mean you're going home with a T-80, tho.

Ever been to a massage parlor? Sure, you can get a normal massage, all above board. For a little extra you get the 'happy' massage.  If you grease the right palms, have the right paperwork, then just like Victor Bout you keep talking about, you too can be driving home in a tank.
 

[LimeyBugger]

ORIGINAL: Edgewise

So why would you say that militia having old weapons and sniper rifles would be contradictory?

Because it includes Dragunov, M-82, M-24. All pretty high-end weapons. Your statement included some rather high end gear, without any qualifier. "... a cheap but long range weapon - for example a M1 w. a scope" - would be fine. The term "sniper rifle" could be giving your hypothetical militia man a weapon worth more than he earns in a decade.

Like it or not, the US is by far the place with the widest diversity of ammo manufacture on the planet.

... and? Wal-Mart is the biggest retailer - does that mean, "if you can't get it at Wal-Mart, you can't get it? Guess what? There's other stores around...

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/07/c ... de-ar.html

Sorry, the Iraqui insurgents got their hands on AP ammo. Where'd it come from? Not the USA - China. Yep, some wild-eyed nutter in a turban can get AP ammo. So, why exactly can't professional mercenaries get it, then?

I dunno of any other country where you can find AP ammo that is not manufactured exclusively for or in some cases by the military.

See above - they're being exported.

For military use only? So? You think that stops gun runners? In 1999-2001, 18 Kh-55 CRUISE MISSILES were smuggled out of Russia to Iran. Those are clearly manufactured _BY_ and _FOR_ exclusive military use. Yet they got their paws on them. You're saying that gun runners can get cruise missiles, tanks, AA, etc - but somehow they'd be hard pressed to get AP ammo?

The USA is the biggest arms exporter in the world - yes. Only? Nope. Russia, Germany, UK, France, Israel, China - there's lots of other fish in the pond.

Come on, France's sale of Exocet missiles to Argentina gave the UK a real headache. 3rd world banana republic with modern anti-ship missiles? Who'd have guessed? But you didn't read about it in the mainstream press before the Falklands war. Just because you're not seeing it in the popular press, doesn't mean it isn't happening. You won't find the manufacturers, purchasers or any middle-men in the arms trade are out for publicity.

I'm sure there are private comanies someplace, but they would be very rare.

Well, someone in Iraq found one of those "very rare" arms suppliers.

There's lots of private companies. Izmash, Norico, IMBEL, to name a few. State controlled? Yes. Involved in the world arms trade? You bet'cha. There's loads of these "rare" companies in the world arms trade. They don't just supply their nation's industry. If there's profit to be had, they'll happily export. If there's political gains to be had as well? Guess what? Missing shipments turn up in the oddest of places, and nobody bats an eye.

*EDIT*
I think you're getting confused with "rare" and "hard to acquire". One doesn't necessarily mean the other. The fact that most banana republic forces don't have AP ammo has more to do with the fact that most peasants armed with sharpened papayas aren't wearing body armor. Nor do the ill-paid and ill-trained soldiers for that matter, making it not a priority for the rabble to acquire. Rarity of specialized armor piercing ammunition has more to do with market forces than a lack of suppliers - or that's my guess.

...but you'd still be getting standard ball ammo afaik.  My knowledge of Russian ammo manufacture is far from extensive but I'm pretty sure you'll find their armories stuffed with typical ball and tracer rounds, not AP.  If you want to get steel core rounds for whatever personal use, I can't think of anyplace you could get them really except from US based suppliers.

China. As shown above.

I can't see why other suppliers would be any different.

I have to disagree here and say Wiki has failed you...

Wiki isn't infallible. But it's generally accurate. I challenged you to find a reputable source which uses "your" definitions. You didn't provide one, and your strongest argument is "wiki failed you". Go find a source. I have a source for my argument, you don't.

Do you really think you're being reasonable in your refusal to accept my source, on the argument that "it's wrong" - despite the fact that you haven't offered a single source to back up your argument?

RPG is a Rocket Propelled Grenade.

Since you're basing your whole argument on the wording - well, hate to break it to you, but "RPG" doesn't mean that. Ruchnoi Protivotankovye Granatamyot is what it means - "hand-held anti-tank grenade-launcher". Get your facts straight.

Go do some research. Find an reputable source that says a RPG-7 _IS_ a grenade launcher. Don't try to mince words, especially since you haven't understand the words you're trying to mince.

*EDIT*
There seems to be some ambiguity as to the use of the term "grenade". It seems to be used quite liberally for anything that "goes boom". Hand grenade. Anti-tank grenade. There seems to be a lot of ambiguity as to what defines a "grenade". This might be your source of confusion. Just keep in mind that while a RPG is a "grenade launcher" in that it's warhead is a "grenade" by some definitions - you have to look at the Russian usage of the term, "ANTI-TANK". I think that's what really draws the line between a "grenade launcher" and "RPG". From what I can see:
1. Grenade launchers are primarily anti-personnel, where RPGs are _ALWAYS_ anti-tank.
2. RPGs are _ALWAYS_ hand-held, whereas a grenade launcher can include weapons which are crew served or vehicle mounted.

So does this mean there's no overlap in the wording? Nope. But the same goes for "rifle" and "pistol" and "carbine". There's a degree of overlap in all these. (eg: Mortimer's "pistol" in For a Few Dollars more). However, people generally know what they mean when they use one term or the other.

All RPGs come under the rather liberal definition of "grenade launcher", but not all "grenade launchers" fit the definition of "RPG". The use of the term RPG, by definition, _ONLY_ includes those which are hand-held and anti-tank by design. A Milkor Stopper 37/38 mm riot gun is a grenade launcher. A M-79 is a grenade launcher. A mortar could be described, quite loosely, as a grenade launcher. Hell, a Katyusha could be argued to be a "grenade launcher". Hell, an UR-100 could probably be argued to be a "grenade" that's "launched"... man, that's an ICBM! It's launched - its warhead goes "boom" as any grenade does - ya, sure - it's a "grenade launcher". But none of these are RPGs.

I concede that RPGs are "grenade launchers". It covers a pretty damned broad swath of weapons. I've yet to see a 81mm mortar be described in any military literature, as a "grenade launcher" - but by by the given definition - yep, it is. But you're really losing me with your argument that a LAW or AT-4 aren't RPGs. They are. My original statement was, "Considering he also sells RPGs, dynamite, grenade launchers" - well, some of what he supplies are grenade launchers (M-79, M-203) but do not fall in the classification of RPGs. Thus, I think I was quite correct in using separate descriptors for them.

Well, that's how I suss things out.

*FINAL EDIT*
ARGH! There doesn't seem to be any definition of "grenade" or "launcher" - from what I can see, a "grenade launcher" encompasses anything from a M-79, to a riot tear gas launcher, to a mortar, to an ICBM. Definition of "grenade launcher" seems to be more by consensus than definition. Why don't you give me _YOUR_ definition of what you consider to be a "grenade launcher"?

as are a couple dozen other weapons that are -not- RPG's

See link above. LAW and AT-4 are classified as RPGs in the article. Hand-held, check. Anti-tank, check. RPGs.

Tbh, the shaped charge variety of RPG-7 rounds is largely useless against most tanks and armored fighting vehicles, same with the LAW. I remember watching an M2 AFV shrug off several RPG hits on live TV early in the US invasion of Iraq. Back in the 60's they were ok vs light armor, but today they're really not much use in an anti-armor role. Great vs trucks, walls, bunkers, and infantry.

Actually, RPG-7s worked fine vs. Strykers, which is a modern afv.

The RPG line is up to RPG-30 now, I believe.

In 2007, a RPG-29 took out a British Challenger 2 MBT. That's one tough tank.

In 2008, a RPG-29 took out a M1.

Yes, the RPG-7 is pretty dated for most (not all, tho *cough* Stryker *cough* crappola *cough*) modern armor. But there's more than just the RPG-7. It's a whole family of Russian love for RPG-X. That main battle tanks can shrug off RPG-7s is one thing to say. It's quite another to say that they can shrug off RPGs in general. Well, that's just the Russian anti-tank weapon line. Include the other weapons indicated in the above link, and you'll probably find that modern RPGs fare pretty well against modern armor.

Insofar as all high velocity rounds are inately AP in nature, ap rounds are all over the place, the standard ammo for assault rifles everywhere.

If you're suggesting that HG expand the ammo types for assault rifles to include "normal", to represent "standard ball ammo - as they do with pistol ammunition - then yes. I agree. Given that there's only AP or OC ammo in HG, however - the AP ammo we've been arguing about isn't being represented. "proper" AP ammo should be able to cut through assault armour with relative ease. Something we don't see in HG.

You would think that (explosives are tightly controlled), but infact that is not the case. It is very easy to get or even make explosives.  That is not the case with the specialized core ammo I was describing.  It is not easy to make, or get.

It was one example of DJ being able to get "restricted" goods. I don't think it's a major point. I brought it up with other items he supplies, to show that he has access to military supply channels. I'm not going to argue it, since it's off topic.

As for your "hard to get, specialized ammo" - well, there's loads of vendors out there. It's turning up in the hands of wild eyed Jihadists. I don't think the facts support your case that AP ammo would be hideously difficult to get your hands on, as a mercenary or gun-runner.

Ever been to a massage parlor? Sure, you can get a normal massage, all above board. For a little extra you get the 'happy' massage.

Actually, I prefer straight-up brothels or independent workers. Generally higher quality of girls and there's no dispute over "services rendered". But that's my personal bias.

If you grease the right palms, have the right paperwork, then just like Victor Bout you keep talking about, you too can be driving home in a tank.

Your point is lost on me. You're talking about gun runners one minute, and the next you're talking about of entertaining businessmen with things that go boom. I don't see the connection, aside from the fact that arms are involved. Are you suggesting that the same people taking cash off the businessmen are the same people involved in the arms trade? I haven't heard of any of these customers of the Chinese entertainers, to be caught running guns, or trying to smuggle RPGs home in their bags. If that's your argument, back up your statement. Otherwise, it's irrelevant and only serves to cloud the issue.

[Edgewise]

Because it includes Dragunov, M-82, M-24. All pretty high-end weapons. Your statement included some rather high end gear, without any qualifier. "... a cheap but long range weapon - for example a M1 w. a scope" - would be fine. The term "sniper rifle" could be giving your hypothetical militia man a weapon worth more than he earns in a decade.

You really did not read my post.  I will repost the 2 paragraphs in question and hopefully you will read them both completely which will put this to rest.

Repost:
Again I'll add a vote for better AI, the AI is really really awful.  If they took cover or just went prone after firing/being fired at, this would make a huge difference.  When one comes under fire, he should call his friends to his location so they don't sit spread all over the map allowing you to pick them off with a silenced weapon one at a time while they stand there stupidly.  Give the soldiers wearing uniforms a camo bonus of 25 or so.  For every 10 soldiers (not militia), have one with a sniper rifle and good accuracy who will try to shoot from far away, one with a machine gun and auto fire skill, one with a heavy weapon and heavy weapon skill.  RPG's are as common as dirt in some parts of Africa, no reason the dictators troops shouldn't have a bunch.  Additionally, one sarge with high stats and an assault rifle, one officer with good stats and a pistol, the other 5 troops with SMG's and assault rifles.  All of the regular troops (soldiers) should have a grenade they can throw. Guards should be similar but better.

Weapon distribution: Militia should have a mix of low-end and old equipment, much as they do in the game.  Pistols, rifles, cheap SMG's, rarely assault rifles.  They should not have desert eagles or calico SMG's or calico AR's.  I'd be surprised if there are ANY calico's in all of Africa outside the private collections or private security forces of a few wealthy people in South Africa.  Possibly mercs would use these, but they should be rare, not 20% of all AR's dropped in the game.  It is a very cool gun but seriously, you can buy an AK variant for a lot less money, and they're very common anyplace where there is war or dictators.  Soldiers should use standard military weapons, but not the bleeding edge stuff imo. AKM's, AK-74's, RPK-74's, RPG's, the occasional western assault rifle, 9x18 pistols.  Red dot sights should be reserved for the Elite troops, along with AK-100 series weapons, caseless ammo SMG's, 50 cal sniper rifles, uber heavy weapons, etc.

Incase this is still unclear I shall summarize the part pertaining to our dispute.  I said Militia should have old and non-standardized weapons.  I then laid out a weapon ratio for soldiers and specifically -excluded- malitia, in which I said they should have 1 sniper in 10 troops. In weapon distribution breakdown I laid out my desire for them to use typical military hardware for a decently equiped 3rd world army.  I then pointed out that the super cool stuff like .50 cals should be reserved for the Elite troops.   If you're still not clear on this, I dunno what else to say really.

... and? Wal-Mart is the biggest retailer - does that mean, "if you can't get it at Wal-Mart, you can't get it? Guess what? There's other stores around...

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/07/chinese-made-ar.html

Sorry, the Iraqui insurgents got their hands on AP ammo. Where'd it come from? Not the USA - China. Yep, some wild-eyed nutter in a turban can get AP ammo. So, why exactly can't professional mercenaries get it, then?

For AP ammo there really are not very many stores.  I don't think you really understand.  That picture you are showing is not meeting the qualification of AP as I explained it earlier.  That picture actually isn't even a Chinese bullet. I can identify that cartridge as a US round and the dark grey pointy thing 3rd from the right is a tugsten carbide tip.  That bullet actually has no better penetration than a normal high velocity round at close range.  At longer ranges it has better penetration because the tip does not become soft.  The AP rounds I was and am talking about are vastly better vs body armor, but cost a rediculous amount to make.  Again, I am repeating myself here but it just isn't sinking in. 

Lots of high velocity rounds are called AP.  Infact all high velocity rounds are inately ap because they are high velocity rounds.  But to make a small calibre round that will punch through an inch of steel at 300 yards... -That- is the AP I'm talking about, and the one you show in that picture which will do 0.3 inches of steel at 20 feet, (I was looking at the stats yesterday when I was talking about this with someone else) never mind 300 yards. Those carbide tips also cause a high likelyhood of richochet, an angle of 45 degrees to the impact surface and it won't even go through a window. One reason they have not become a standard round.  Carbide is extremely hard, but also extremely brittle.  Drop that bullet on the ground, and if it hits tip first, it will fracture. Press it gradually into steel and it will cut into it.  Press it too fast or hard, it shatters.  They are called ap by the manufacturer but what they really do is allow the bullet tip to maintain it's shape and hardness over a long distance so they penetrate softer materials better at extended range.  That makes it a useful cartridge in the M249 which can toss rounds out 900 meters with nice accuracy, but it has only a small improvement over the base round in an M-16 at it's max effective range of 300 yards and no difference at 50 yards.

Steel core rounds is what I am talking about when I say AP.  Police call anything that will cut through level 1 body armor (what they normally use) AP.  That's would include many standard lead pistol rounds... but not what I am talking about when I say AP.  The AP I am talking about will go through the cop car, the cop, his vest (twice) and out the other side of the car, and still have enough energy to crack a cinderblock. 

I know you can find 500 vague refferences to AP in 10 minutes online.  I'm not talking about glass or teflon coated bullets or carbide tipped bullets... but you are.  Now that (hopefully) you understand what I am talking about and why I say the bullets you are talking about are close enough to normal ball ammo that I wouldn't bother differentiating them, I will lay out why the ones I am talking about are very rare and expensive.  You can't mass produce them.  Well you could, but the quality would be too low to maintain any type of accuracy at long range. You have to have a great deal of precision in your manufacturing process.  A marble is bigger in mass and volume than the CPU in your computer, but as you can immagine, the CPU is many orders of magnitude harder to make, and thus many orders of magnitude more expensive to produce.  As for the rarity... Unlike the CPU in your computer, there is not a high demand for precision made high velocity Steel core AP small arms rounds.  One reason is because they cost a ton to make (as detailed above).

The other is because I don't know any country where they are both A: made, and B: legal to purchace.  Where they are made, they are made in very small quantities and for very special military use.  Lots of large munitions are made with this type of precision, but it makes sense to spend a few hundred to a few thousand (in the case of the US) bucks on a round that might one day kill a much more expensive tank or hellicopter or jet fighter.  The 20mm shells in US fighters or the 30mm rounds in an A-10 might seem rather mundane, but they can run a couple G or more per round... kinda crazy when you think of that 30mm throwing out 200 rounds in the time it takes you to blink your eye, but we like to do things the expesive way in the US, what can I say. Not many... really not any other countries that I know of will throw as much money into R+D and precision manufacturing for military hardware as we do. 

Lots of people could in theory make some super wicked over the top expensive ammo, but who actually would and does?  I can make a precision stapler that will accurately place a staple within 5 tenthousands of an inch for a few thousand dollars worth of labor... or I can settle for the 'good enough' and go buy one that was stamped on a punch press then bent into shape on a press brake and asembled by children in Taiwan and shipped here for 5 bucks at Office Depot that does the job. So you see, you can't go to a different store for these, they are only sold in 2 or 3 and as it happens none is a Wallmart, but infact all are high security armories where every round is tracked.  Is it impossible? no... but for what someone would be risking to make some of this ammo vanish and show up on DJ's shelf, they'd want a very big chunk of cash beyond the actual value.

It was one example of DJ being able to get "restricted" goods. I don't think it's a major point. I brought it up with other items he supplies, to show that he has access to military supply channels. I'm not going to argue it, since it's off topic.

You have been and still are arguing it.  You can't make an arguement in the first sentance then say you're not gonna argue it in the next sentance.  Anyhow... 'Military channels' doesn't get you access to anything made by any military or any military supplier.  And seriously, an AK is marginally harder to get than TNT, not that it's exactly hard.  What I have been describing as explained at length now is not anything generically called AP by an ammo manufacturer.

As for your "hard to get, specialized ammo" - well, there's loads of vendors out there.

Find me ONE place that sells the ammo I'm talking about.  You won't.  Don't bother... I've tried many times to find it.  You can find psuedo-versions of it for pistols, not what I'm talking about.

If that's your argument, back up your statement. Otherwise, it's irrelevant and only serves to cloud the issue.

Need I respond to this? As you're selectively picking at specific points, obviously different parts of the debate will go in different directions.  Can you go to someplace like say... Russia on a business trip, stop to look at a tank factory, talk to the right people, pass the right amount of money, get some military equipment loaded onto a ship bound for home? Well the evidence I've seen strongly points to yes you could do this in the 90's.  Can you now? I honestly have no idea, but I know you can start a 'company' in some African nations (Somalia comes to mind), quite easily bribe the right people locally to get the necessary paperwork to get the government to allow you to buy arms as if it was a nation to nation contract even though you plan to filter the weapons elsewhere. 

The CIA does this sorta crap all the time, one reason we're so 'loved'.  Why do you think AK's are so common everywhere? Russia doesn't have alot of exports other than fossil fuels.  Really, military hardware is one of the few Rusian industries that does well without the government propping it up.  Not to mention DPRK.  Chinese arms exports have been falling dramatically in recent decades, as it's just much more lucrative to make junk of all types to sell to the US.

Anyhow, I think we're getting way off course.  What I think you are saying here is that military gear in general is easy to get.  For Soviet style equipment, this is true as a general rule.  What I am saying is that some things are harder to get than others.  You don't make something that costs more to make than customers will pay for it.  Who will pay rediculous amounts for precision made bullets? The US military will.  Could other people make them? Sure... but really you only got one major customer (that I know of... I'm sure other western nations might use them for small arms but that is conjecture on my part).  Contracts are awarded via a pretty shadey process to people inside the good old boys network at the Pentagon.  So you have a very small number of suppliers producing a small amount of very expensive ammo which is the type of ammo I am talking about.

Edit: I missed part of your post. As for what RPG stands for, it depends on what you read. And either 'RPG' still has 'grenade' involved. You can call a LAW or AT-4 a grenade... and nobody but you will agree with you reguardless of technicalities, definitions, etc. And I used RPG-7 as my example because it is by far the most common widely used version. You talk about me mincing words... you sir I think have no real point to prove, no real insight to add, no real ideas to put forward but just like to argue. I don't mind a good arguement myself tbh, but I really don't have the free time to continue, and as you've started to get a bit insulting I see this starting to go downhill at this point. I'll let you parce words and split hairs with Sarge and try to be careful in my wording so you don't find some method of phraising you feel you must argue about.

[LimeyBugger]

As to the whole AP argument, go back to the initial FT article that's linked. Ignore the picture - the author of the post doesn't make any claims that they're photos of Chinese ammo. It's a photo to give readers an idea what AP ammo is - that's all.

"Richard Lawless, the departing senior Pentagon official for Asia, on -Friday said that Washington had flagged the issue with -Beijing. US officials have become increasingly alarmed that Chinese armour-piercing ammunition has been used by the Taliban in Afghanistan and by insurgents in Iraq."

Note that a Pentagon official said "armour-piercing ammunition". Not cops, not some reporter. A pentagon official. Cop definition of AP doesn't apply here - military folks talking military standards. They found it enough quantity to warrant a diplomatic complaint to Beijing. I think that excludes the possibility that they're talking about standard ball ammunition from some generic Chinese factory, or some squishy bullet that's only called "armor piercing" by it's marketing department.

Chinese arms exports have been falling dramatically in recent decades, as it's just much more lucrative to make junk of all types to sell to the US.

Um - can you qualify that statement? According to SIPRI, a global arms think-tank, they can only guess at Chinese arms production and sales. The Chinese aren't very forthcoming about their dealings, as they point out in "The SIPRI Top 100 Arms Producing Companies (excluding China) 2006" paper you can find on http://www.sipri.org/contents/milap/.

Falling in recent decades? Based on what info? Chinese aren't talking. Most of their customers aren't going to make press releases about their purchases. What's the basis of your statement that Chinese arms sales have been "falling dramatically in recent decades"? The arms industry is motivated by the same profit model as any other business. Every other sector of Chinese industrial production has been increasing - why should their arms industry be any different?

Your whole argument seems to be based around, "I can't find someone selling it, so it must be next to impossible to get". But these companies don't sell to civilians. They sell to nations for the most part (perhaps companies like Blackwater, but who knows where they get their gear from). The fact that you can't find AP ammunition at your local Wal Mart doesn't mean it isn't out there - and most certainly not unobtainable for someone who has the proper contacts (eg: the Russian I pointed out earlier). You don't find anti-aircraft guns for advertised for sale. You don't find armored vehicles for sale. But he managed to get those. Sorry, but your whole argument "I can't find it, so it doesn't exist or it's really really rare" flies in the face of info that's out there.

Now, the second part of your argument assumes it's a "precision made" product that's incredibly expensive. But you admit (could you not?) that the American military pays outlandish prices for its gear. We're back to basic market forces. You have a limited number of suppliers for one very generous purchaser - ya, you get huge prices and a sweet profit margin. Does that mean the Chinese, Russians or Brazilians can't produce a knockoff for 1/10 the price? Certainly not. The fact that AP ammo is expensive for the military has nothing to do with how much it costs the Chinese to manufacture them or how much they can sell them to countries like Iran, Lybia or any number of nations in the market for "American troop killing" ammo.

Could other people make them? Sure... but really you only got one major customer

Lots of customers. Any government that feels threatened by America. That's... well, most of the world given Bush's politics. The whole world less the UK. Bliar was Bush's lapdog for too long for the UK to feel threatened.

You can call a LAW or AT-4 a grenade... and nobody but you will agree with you reguardless of technicalities, definitions, etc.

I already gave you a link to a posting which uses that EXACT TERM. They're nobody? Anything you disagree with, you reject because "you know better" - you provide no reliable sources. You provide no documentation, when confronted with documents that contradict your suppositions.

"Chinese AP ammo turning up in Iraq and Afghanistan? Feh, the Pentagon official doesn't know what AP ammo is - I know better." That's your whole argument.

"LAW, AT-4 and RPG-7 all considered to RPGs? Bah - they're wrong - I'm the expert here, I know better that someone who's publishing and is open to the criticism of his peers - I know better than any of those guys!" - that's basically what you said. You know better - you don't have anything better to back up your stance, than "nobody but you will agree with you".

"I can't find any place selling AP ammunition, so it must be really rare and really really expensive." - Um, kiddy porn isn't easy to find. Nor are any manner of illegal contraband. Does that mean they aren't out there? According to you, because you can't find it, it doesn't exist. Basic market forces dictate otherwise. But you know better than the economic models around which our whole world turns?

One can't debate a point with you. You don't like it, you reject it. You're right - this debate is going nowhere.

I'll let you parce words and split hairs with Sarge and try to be careful in my wording so you don't find some method of phraising you feel you must argue about.

Now you're being plain MEAN! The "so-called marine". Ya, and I'm Elvis. Might as well try talking with the guy at the mental hospital who thinks he's Napoleon. I'd probably get more out of him than Sarge.

[Edgewise]

Limey, I'm done hijacking this thread to debate minutiae that is so far removed from the original post it's irrelevant.  I'll just say you are completely wrong for the sake of saying it, and if you want to make a thread called "I like to argue" we can continue.   Otherwise, I'm just gonna stick to using this thread for it's intended purpose.
 
Other things I'd like to see in this patch...
 
Dynamite is a bit old school.  How about C4 or RDX or something a bit more modern and reliable?  And really, dynamite is pretty cheap, 4k seems kinda nuts for a few sticks held together by some electrical tape.  You can buy all the ingredients at any moderately well stocked sportting goods store for under 50 bucks. Perhaps a detonator that can be fixed to any explosive so you could use an RPG or 40mm round or even a hand-grenade placed where you want and detonated by radio control.  As mentioned in an earlier post, scavanging for materials in crates and closets on different maps could yield lots of junk that might be useful when combined with other junk.  Homemade pipe-bombs could be fun and these changes would add a little value to the laregly unused explosives skill.
 
Crowbars! already in the game... But nothing to pry open with them that I've seen so far.  Another reason for putting stuff in crates, or locking some doors.  I still haven't seen a lock-pick kit and no clue what the lock pick specialization does for you with nothing seeming to be locked. Electronics? Another specialization with no purpose.  Directional mikes, heartbeat sensors, IR equipment... where is the love?
 
Armor! As in tanks, APC's... Obviously a challenge for light infantry to deal with.  The country has some heavy equipment and a dictator... You'd think he could afford a few T-55's or BMP's someplace, he's got a battleship after all.  Definitely make things interesting.   Land mines?  Cheap, common, nasty.  add more of these in places like the coastal fortress or the military base.
 
 
 
 
 
 

[LimeyBugger]

Edgewise,

That's the point of forums - discussion.

Not everyone will agree with you. Some people, heaven forbid, will question and challenge your statements.

So, in the spirit of discussion, it isn't "hijacking the thread" to challenge your suggestions and fraudulent statements.

You see, that's the point of forums - discussion. That's more than, "everyone else is wrong and I'm right". To challenge someone's ideas and question them is the whole _POINT_, of a forum; of a discussion. You've missed that... or perhaps you believe everyone is wrong, you're right, and it's not worth discussing because you know better than anyone else.

But like I said - it's a wasted effort discussing anything with you - you refuse to examine or back up your clearly false assertions. Your suggestions are perfection, can't be challenged, because you know better than anyone else. You know better than Pentagon officials. You know better than professional authors. You know better than the Wiki community.

So who's hijacking the thread?


*EDIT - misinformation*
Edgewise insists that "RPG" means "rocket propelled grenade", in that RPG-7 means, "Rocket Propelled Grenade, model 7". It doesn't. It means, "Ruchnoi Protivotankovye Granatamyot". It's the designation used by it's manufacturer. Edgewise's arguments are riddled with inaccuracies, misinformation, and blatant refusal to accept document sources over his "superior knowledge".

Just a tidbit of info. Hopefully the community can learn from his example; that there's some nutters out there that just won't listen to reason.

[Edgewise]

The game doesn't differentiate between AR's and MG's on autofire throwing your accuracy off as far as I can tell.  It's hard to quantify the difference between firing an AR full auto and firing an MG or LMG full auto, but for anyone who's done both, you'll know what I'm talking about.  MG's mounted on a sturdy tripod or vehicle are very accurate even out to 1k on full auto.  Using a bipod, light MG's are still quite accurate if more limited in arc.  I think there should be an accuracy bonus for mounted MG's or LMG's fired while prone.  Basically, they should be as accurate as they are in single shot, if not more since you have the advantage of walking your rounds into the target.  Additionally, I'd allow this bonus for LMG's from a crouch if there is something at the correct elevation infront of him, like a crate where the bipod could rest.  I'd also give a major negative to using an LMG on autofire without the bipod firmly planted on something.  The 'Rambo' style of shooting an LMG doesn't work too well for any sort of accuracy.  Perhaps these are already factored in, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
 
Aiming bonus for being braced: I'd also like to see an aiming bonus for being braced against something.  While it's possible to shoot just as accurately standing as it is prone or with your weapon resting on a pile of sandbags, it definitely takes a bit longer.  I'd give anyone prone a +1 aiming bonus, crouching a +1 if they have something infront of them to rest their arms/weapon on.  The more stable you are, the faster you can reach that sweet spot 'perfect aim'.  No idea if you could code this in without more work than it's worth, but I think it would be cool.
 
Trainable NPC's? I know it's posible to train your Mercs, but I think it would be nice to be able to recruit/train your own generic mercs who would stay with you reguardless of what faction you are alligned with.  They'd be like malitia in quality, minus equipment which you'd need to provide them. Perhaps a base training time of 1 week for a 5 man squad, reduced by leadership skill to as short as 1 day for 99 leadership or whatever you guys think will work.

[LimeyBugger]

Two things I want:

1. Flame weapons - WP grenades, incendiary grenade launcher rounds, perhaps molotov cocktails.

Aside from some dramatic deaths, I think it'd open up some options. Particularly annoying soldier in a house? Fine - burn it down. The environment is pretty destructible. I can't see why continuous damage (flame) couldn't be implemented.

Probably outside the realm of a simple patch, but I can hope.

2. More death animations. Hey, you catch someone at point blank range with a full burst from a M-60, it should be dramatic. I think this is something they really missed in the development. Dramatic death animations from restricted circumstances adds to replayability. People will be more interested in playing the game more than once, for example, to see more heads blown off, limbs flying, etc. I know - it's childish. But I think those little touches are what bring people back to one game or another. How many people spent hours on the Mortal Combat games? Were (haven't touched them in ages) MC games any better than the other fighting games out there? No - it's the psychological reward of getting the combo off for the executions, which made it that much better than it's competitor games. How many people sent Fox from JA2 sneaking around with a pair of massive pistols, just in the hope that she'd catch someone at point blank range and pop their head off?

Yes, it's juvenile. But I don't think there's many people out there who hasn't played a game with that sort of touches, and knows what a difference it can make to the fun of it.

It's like NOLF2 - you could play it through once pretty easily, but it's scenes like guards doing the boogie, or overhearing the minions bickering about life as a man-cube, which really put it in a class of its own. HG touches on this with the comments from the mercs - but never really gets past more than a vague scratching of what the potential is. The engine is certainly capable of it - I think it's as with most of the game. The feeling that it wasn't finished, and rushed to market at the beta stage.

[pad152]

A couple of things from JA, that would be nice.

1. Ability to unload ammo from weapons.

2. Ability to combine weapon clips (fill large clips from small ones), the same way you add attachments to weapons.

3. Range Info on target; each weapon is rated for range, yet there is no range information when in combat, some sort of range info on the map would be helpfull.

4. Tool kit for repairing weapons.

[Reinforce]

1. Right click on the weapon then left click on the Ammo counter that displayed something like 15/15 or what not.
 
2. You can if you have a larger mag thats down rounds. Just click on the smaller one and drop it onto the bigger one. This is handie for refilling 30 round mags for ARs out of them 100 round boxes.
 
3. Been alot of posts about this already as well as a way to see the hit %.
 
4. You can order your mercs to repair there weapons you don't need a tool kit to do it. Just set them to repair like you would set them up to train.
 
Much love,
Reinforce

[cakefart]

Just a few that has been bugging me :


1.Movement mapping : It is really eating me alive loosing APs and getting out of breath because they cant find a way around a log,down a slope or inside the house. It seems whenever person moves from one underlay (gravel,grass,traintrack...) to another,the computer cant calculate the correct path. This should really get fixed. Loosing all your breath because a dude cant get over a log thats laying acrossa a path...uuuh...
Let alone if mercs could climb to roofs,fluidly enter buildings etc...

2.LOS issues : firing from prone position is almost useless,very hard to hit persons hiding behind fences etc, next to impossible to fire when crouched behind sandbags and like...ad nauseaum..

3. LOS with grenade launchers : well,this is obvious,no need to explain...rendering the weapons unusable.

4. Useless rocket launchers : allways blowing yourself up when firing from prone position.very dangerous when firing from crouch and NO possibility to fire from standing position (that frigging animation makes the person to crouch when firing) so you can fire from behind sandbags and obstacles...
The AP expenditure is ridiculous. A person with 15 APs cant lauch a rocket launcher... yea right...
AUTO DISCARD of one use launchers, so you dont have to use 15 (!) APs to discard the empty launchers. I mean,comooon!!

5.AP expenditure : dropping items takes too much,the bugs in movement can eat away your ap´s. trying to shoot a enemy that is marked red that suprisingly isnt in the LOF eats ap´s etc..

6. Out of breathed mercs : Right... I wont even get into this...

7. Differentiation in firing poses : This would require the fix in the LOS, but in general it would punish severely if you would try to fire MGs and heavy (sniper) rifles when standing and make it mandatory to aquire the right firing position for said weapons.

8.Throw range for grenades to vary depending of position : 10-15m when prone 15-25m when crouched and 25-35m when standing.

9.SNAP : a working interrupt would be nice... it nice that you have 3 sniper in line waiting for that tango to get up in the watchtower...only to find out that that sniper gets up,shoots and kills my mercs within 5 rounds without my mercs doing anything... or making a ambush behind a house and realize that your mercs calmly decide to let the tangos walk beside them and kick,stab and shoot my poor mercs to death... riiiight....

10 : Working AI : too much to asked,but at least that they would do some flanking movements and they wouldnt let them to be dropped in one big pile by your snipers.
Let alone if you could make them vary :

A la :
Rookies : Running around,firing all the time on full auto,running out of ammo,using C class armament,disorganized,routed easily etc... so pracially like the present bad guys...
Militia : aiming,making simple manouvers, using special weapons once a while,taking cover and making simple ambushes.
SpecOps: using lethal weapons,utilizing complicate tactics (supressing fire,sniping,ambushes,grenade volleys,fallbacks,charges etc..)


Well,here is a few for starters..

[goldfinger35]

Ok, after playing the game for a while, I have made a list of things that should be changed:
1. Better AI
2. Better AI
3. Better AI
4. Better AI
5. Better AI
6. Better AI
7. Better AI
8. Better AI
9. Better AI
10.Better AI