loaned units and PP

[eske]

Marshall
 
Plz. consider, that this is not a game for cutthroats. No one - not even France - wins this game without friends. Most players knows this, and needs to be considred trustworthy. Anyone pulls a stunt like you're describing, and he is not only never lent any units again in that game (and probably other games too). He will also be regarded a paria (in game, of course) towards who, any - similar or worse - tricks are legitimate.
 
So there is no need for an extra mechanism to protect against abuse of trust. And by the way a penalty of -3PP does not stop it!
 
Bottom line: There is no EiA version where this rule is changed from original EiA. And only EiANW has - because of implementation difficulties - changed the Combined movement rules. I believe this way to gain PP's for allies is one of the core aspects of EiA (Any version).
 
/eske
 
PS. The thread about this from last spring must still be around somewhere...

[fvianello]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

It's an argument simply because there is room for abuse! Prussia not present allows Prussia to use the loaned corps as fodder WITHOUT a penalty. This is not combined movement. These units are under Prussian control and the Prussian can do what he wants with the loaned units.

The abuse you're referring to it's a possibilty, but not too realistic and anyway far less important than an accurate sharing of the PP lost / gained in a battle; till now, I still have to see a case in which the controlling player abused of the corps loaned by another player.

What we trying to obtain is a simulation of the original EiA combined movement, and that rule implied the proportional sharing of PP among the players who actually fought.

[Jimmer]

The controller shouldn't lose/gain PP for corps that are not his. Penalties should be imposed some other way. A force should each lose or gain PP based on what they have there, not what they control.
 
In combined movement, each power had to put his own corps into the battle, moving each by himself. His ally had no choice in the matter.
 
Loaned corps is supposed to be simulating combined movement, but with changes due to programming constraints. Unless a programming constraint can be noted which blocks accurate PP allocation, it should work exactly as it would have in old EiA with combined movement: If Prussia comes in with 4 corps and Austria 1 and GB 1, and they lose, Prussia should lose 2 PP and the others each 1 PP. It should make no difference which player's phase the battle occurs on. Even if it happens on the enemy's phase, the PP loss should be the same.
 
NOTE: The PP loss is for any corps which participated, whether for one round the whole combat. Reinforcing corps count, as do corps which are removed by being depleted of factors.

[Jimmer]

Regarding abuse, it really can't happen. If someone abuses a corps from me, I can just have it revert to my control the next turn.
 
There ARE times when "abuse" is actually warranted. In the game we just finished (CleverDevils2), I loaned two corps to Austria (or, intended to, if the game had continued). One was a British corps filled with British regulars. The other was a full Swedish corps. As you can guess, I had VERY different "requirements" as to the loss of factors from them: No British factors or Swedish cavalry could be taken (until it was required), but the Swedish infantry could be killed as he wished.

[fvianello]

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

NOTE: The PP loss is for any corps which participated, whether for one round the whole combat. Reinforcing corps count, as do corps which are removed by being depleted of factors.

Good point [:)]

[wbm4x]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I'll let more chime in on this one before moving on it.

I'm in favor of the majority opinion--loaned corps (solo or a stack) fighting by themselves should only gain/lose PPs for the loaning country. The abuse you are suggesting would be very rare and unlikely to happen again. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

[MarshallEllis]

ORIGINAL: wbm4x

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I'll let more chime in on this one before moving on it.

I'm in favor of the majority opinion--loaned corps (solo or a stack) fighting by themselves should only gain/lose PPs for the loaning country. The abuse you are suggesting would be very rare and unlikely to happen again. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Yes but here might be "Fool me once, win the game".
Arrrrg!

[AresMars]

I am in favor or respecting the EIA method of PP allocation.
 
 

[NeverMan]

I feel like I am watching this game be made all over again:

People claim one thing, Matrix claims the other thing (which is bad) and Matrix wins! Isn't this how the game got ruined to begin with?? Matrix didn't listen to the players?

AH!!!

I have a SOLUTION: Implement COMBINED MOVEMENT and this whole argument is moot!!

There you go Marshall, there's your solution!