Nuts 'n Bolts Questions

[RAL]

Some things I am just not understanding after 1&1/2 games.

* Soviet Hedgehogs
I have yet to see a single Soviet unit permitted to hedgehog. When I right click the hex concerned, it says "Hedgehog ok", the unit is entrenched, and has not used its Action Capability that turn. This is true for literally dozens of units of all types that I have checked. The hedgehog button simply never appears. I have not played the Axis yet, but obviously many of their units can hedgehog. Is this a bug or am I doing something wrong? I'm expecting the hedgehog option to be in the same screen location as the entrench button; the manual says it will replace the entrench button. That never seems to happen. Note, this is true even if I pick a Soviet unit well behind the 'FEBA'.

* Different Unit Stats, Left and Right Click
When I left click on a Soviet Unit stack I get a display in the far right column indicating various stats such as attack etc etc. However when I right click on the same unit stack & mouse over the unit, ~ the numbers are very different. Checking the HQ supply distribution the units are green, i.e. attack supplied for the turn. They are in the green supply net. Example, 556th
Rifle Regmt in right column has attack value of 21, on mouseover from r-click attack value of 13. Defense value 25 vs 11. Both show two roundels, 2 green bullets, 2 full bullets, 2 half bullets. Which is correct? This is true on many units, even on the first turn, and even for defensive value of some artillery. Yet on some units the numbers are identical. Explain please.

[Carl Myers]

Only certain German units have the hedgehog ability.

Right clicking can be done by both players and shows only what the opponent is permitted to see. Left clicking your own unit shows the true state of the unit.

[RAL]

ok, I'm surprised but that explains a lot

So when I right click on a German stack (playing USSR) and it says defense 12, for example, that might be completely wrong. But the combat advisor presumably would get it right? I'll have to check that out to see if the CA numbers change.

Thanks for the rapid answer.

[hank]

I heard when I first got the game that soviet units could not hedgehog.
 
But, my curiosity is getting to me:  What thought process went into the decision to not allow soviet units to hedgehog? 
 
Is it an equipment issue?  A quality issue?  ...
 
I'll say from experience, if you hedgehog a high quality Axis unit and place an AT unit and another couple of 4 step units of about any quality in the hex; no mix or number of soviet units will crack it.  
 
The last pbem I had, my opponent had a hedgehogged hex (just east of Kharkhov) .. surrounded for 3/4 of the game and regardless of the mix and number of the highest quality units I could muster, I could not get odds sufficient for the game to allow me to roll the dice.  ... supply wasn't even an issue.  I guess maybe it was because it was only 3 hexes or so from its own front lines (maybe?? ... I don't know).
 

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: RAL

Some things I am just not understanding after 1&1/2 games.

* Soviet Hedgehogs
I have yet to see a single Soviet unit permitted to hedgehog. When I right click the hex concerned, it says "Hedgehog ok", the unit is entrenched, and has not used its Action Capability that turn. This is true for literally dozens of units of all types that I have checked. The hedgehog button simply never appears. I have not played the Axis yet, but obviously many of their units can hedgehog. Is this a bug or am I doing something wrong? I'm expecting the hedgehog option to be in the same screen location as the entrench button; the manual says it will replace the entrench button. That never seems to happen. Note, this is true even if I pick a Soviet unit well behind the 'FEBA'.

* Different Unit Stats, Left and Right Click
When I left click on a Soviet Unit stack I get a display in the far right column indicating various stats such as attack etc etc. However when I right click on the same unit stack & mouse over the unit, ~ the numbers are very different. Checking the HQ supply distribution the units are green, i.e. attack supplied for the turn. They are in the green supply net. Example, 556th
Rifle Regmt in right column has attack value of 21, on mouseover from r-click attack value of 13. Defense value 25 vs 11. Both show two roundels, 2 green bullets, 2 full bullets, 2 half bullets. Which is correct? This is true on many units, even on the first turn, and even for defensive value of some artillery. Yet on some units the numbers are identical. Explain please.

On Hedgehogs: There are several factors that all must be in place for a unit to hedgehog.

(As you've noted above)
- Terrain must allow hedgehog....
- Unit must be dug in from previous turn
- Unit must have action capability this turn...
(Here's the factor you're asking about)
- Unit must be allowed to hedgehog! Scenario design setting, not all units can hedgehog.

On Unit Values: Right click info shows the modified attack & defense values... these are the values used for calculating attack odds. Left click w/mouse over shows you data on the base strengths for attacking & defending.

Values can be modified for being having formation integrity and/or for being dug in/hedgehogged.

Next couple of posts will show examples of formation integrity and how to identify quickly whether a unit can hedgehog.

JSS

[JSS]

Here's a picture of 11 Panzer Division (from the Kalach Bridge scenario under development). Its deployed in two Kampfgruppen (110 PzGd Reg and 111 PzGd Reg). Its HQ is XLVIII Pz Korps.

[JSS]

Here's a look at 110 PzGd Reg.

There are six combat units (1/110 PzGd Reg, 2/110 PzGd Reg, 1/15 Pz Reg, 61 Motorcycle Bn, 1/61 Pz Jaeger Bn, and 86 Pionier Bn) and a support unit assigned to the formation.

Formation integrity is set to 6 hexes with a 75% bonus. Each combat unit receives the 75% bonus for being 6 or fewer hexes from 1/110 PzGd Reg (the central unit of the formation for calculating the bonus).

[JSS]

86 Pionier Bn is selected in the picture below. Its within the 6 hex radius, so it gets the 75% bonus. Its modified attack and defense values are 25 & 25. In the next post I'll show the right click mouse over view (its base values are 14 & 14).

[JSS]

Right click mouse over of 86 Pionier Bn values. Note how 14 (with 75% bonus) produces the modified values of 25.

[JSS]

There are two places you can look to see if a unit can hedgehog. They are indicated below. If you see the symbol indicated, then the unit can hedgehog. If you don't see this symbol, then the unit cannot hedgehog in the scenario being played.

Hope these pix helped answer your questions!

JSS

[RAL]

Thank you JSS.  I have to learn to print screens; for some reason my prtScn key isn't working.

Is it a fair statement then that in the Kharkov scenario, none of the USSR units can hedgehog? Again, I have only played Soviet thus far.  I have no questions about Germans hedgehogging.  That way I'm not running around looking all over for a Soviet unit that can hedgehog. I understand that in a different scenario in the same game, that might be changed by the designer.

On Question #2, then the true attack value will be in the right column, and includes the integrity bonus and all other factors.  That makes a lot of sense now.  My conceptual error was looking for a problem (supply etc) that was reducing the values on the mouseover, and not thinking of integrity which boosts them. 

Thanks for all the trouble you went to laying this out so clearly.  For me it's back to the game for more testing and action.  At least I seem to be doing a lot better in my second game

[mariovalleemtl]

Kalach Bridge! That look good [:)]

[JSS]

RAL,
 
A quick look didn't find any Soviet units that can hedgehog in the Kharkov scenario.
 
Glad these were helpful.  One additional point on the bonus:  When attacking across a river where the attack strength is reduced by 50%, only the base value (seen by left click mouse over) is halved... the integrity bonus is not reduced.  Obvious point is that units with higher integrity bonuses (when bonus is active) are much more effective attacking across rivers (where attack strength is reduced).
 
JSS

[hank]

JSS,
 
Is the obvious smacking me in the chops?  Is there soon to be a K:DotD version of Rommel Master of Battle (aka Kalach), soon to be on the airwaves?
 
Are you planning on revising Patton and some of your other wonderful scenarios?
 
You may not know, but my question above about why no soviet units are allowed to hedgehog is about to get lost.  Anyone have an answer?
 
 

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: hank

JSS,

Is the obvious smacking me in the chops?  Is there soon to be a K:DotD version of Rommel Master of Battle (aka Kalach), soon to be on the airwaves?

Are you planning on revising Patton and some of your other wonderful scenarios?

You may not know, but my question above about why no soviet units are allowed to hedgehog is about to get lost.  Anyone have an answer?

Hank,

You're correct. Will be uploaded in a few minutes. Doing the Kalach Bridge first (will be easiest for me to work out AI as I know this scenario best). Next project is Iwo Jima. Do have a couple of others planned too.

You'll have to ask Troutie about the no Soviet hedgehog setting. As far as taking out a German hedgehog position it helps to get one or two artillery/air strike hits first and then mass attack numbers and HQ shifts.

JSS

[Avatar47]

There are 2 reasons why the Soviets aren't allowed to Hedgehog. #1, the Germans were truly masters of defence, even in the event of overwhelming enemy soldiers. If they weren't allowed to hedgehog in Kharkov, the game would be very unbalanced in favour of the Soviets. #2, if the soviets were allowed to hedgehog, that would also imbalance the game, as even low-value russian infantry divisions could hold up an entire panzer division for a turn or 2, maybe more. The scenario is very well-balanced the way it is. The soviets do not need hedgehogging, the germans do (and it's more historical that way anyhow).
 
Why is it that wargamers always forget about the play-balancing of a given scenario, and instead whine about how 'unhistorical' it is.... history is impossible to replicate 100% in a wargame, and SSG wants us to have a game that's more or less historical AND play-balanced. (I'm not dissing you though hank)

[Avatar47]

BTW, the most effective way to destroy a single hedgehogged german unit is to try to at least get 1 strike (artillery or air) on it, and then attack at 1-1 odds, destroy another step, and then attack with more units to get a 1-1 odds. You may not even destroy it that turn, but by at least doing some damage on the CURRENT turn, you have an almost certain chance of eliminating it the NEXT turn. Make sense?

[hank]

Avatar,  no offense taken ... or no problemo, I didn't take it as a dis.
 
I was just wondering why a few of the elite Ruskies couldn't hedgehog.  I surely understand the need for balance.
It just seemed the ruskies were being unnecessarily left out of the fun.
 
If a hedgehogged hex has two or three 4 step units in it, you have a very low probability of taking it out because you have to roll double dice for arty and air strikes unless you have a lot of heavy arty that only requires a low single die roll.  By the time it was hedgehogged my arty was already having trouble with supply.  Even if I got a lucky double 5 or 6 artillery die roll, I was only taking out one step.  You can't attack an entrenched / hedgehogged unit when there's 14 or more steps sitting in it; at least I couldn't and I used all sorts of mixes of armore, elite units, etc etc.
 
I'm not beatchin either.  It was just an observation.   ... and as a side note, I discovered another scenario by the master scenario builder JSS.
 
[&o]

[oldspec4]

Believe that the new scenario is only PBEM tho [:(]

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: oldspec4

Believe that the new scenario is only PBEM tho [:(]

For now at least. Have to build the scenario guts before AI can be put in place. Once scenario is PBEM capable, its ready to have the AI built... just the next phase in the process.