Transport bug and cheating opponent

[Michael Peck]

It's mid-July '42 in Scenario 19, and already the Japanese have been shattered. I couldn't understand what I was doing wrong, until I conceded and then complimented the American player on his brilliant play.

My opponent proves that criminals give themselves away. He bragged that he had discovered that repeatedly loading and unloading transports instantly fills them to capacity. So while my convoys spent days loading in Truk, his were able to load and sail in a single day. No wonder American bases seemed to spring up overnight like grass after a rainstorm.

My opponent also turned out to be a liar. He asked to postpone the game while he checked with Matrix about a possible bug. He came back to say that Matrix said it was a "semi-documented feature." I asked him if it had anything to do loading and unloading, because I'm playing the US in a Scenario 17 PBEM, and I couldn't close to turning Lunga, Dobradura, Rossel Island and Kiriwina into Size 2 to 5 airbases in a few weeks. He assured me the "feature" had nothing to do with transport.

Perhaps I'm naive, but I believe most of this players on this forum wouldn't resort to gaming the game system. They would either not use it or at least let their opponent know that the bug exists. My opponent had to know instant airbases would skew the game, but I didn't know until 70 turns had passed.


Now you all know about the bug, and presumably Matrix will fix it. And you also know that if your opponent's play looks too good to be true, it just might be.

MIchael

[tanjman]

Michael,

Please clarify something for me. You're saying there is a bug that creates instant air bases? This is first time I've heard of this. Or do you mean that because he repeatedley hit the load unload he was able to load/unload a TF in zero game time?

Either way, have you reported this on the UV bug forum?

Regarding Base (Air & Port) expansion the allies do have an advantage with their engineer units that have 10 to 20 engineer vehicles each (seem to be the equivalant to around 20-30 engineers each). Without cheating Basse-Poya & Koumac with only one EAB (30 engineers, 20 engineer vehicles & 20 support) each will expand the airfield (if expand port is disabled) from 0(9) to 4(9) by early June 1942. True the higher the potential airfield size the easier it is to expand in time and supplies.

[U2]

Hi

Michaels bug post must have been the strangest yet. I have done the load unload thing but I cant recall it resulting in zero load time. By the way guys it was a mistake and I was not cheating:D
Post this under the bug forum and ask the matrix guys. It is true that the allies get some darn good engineer units that build bases quickly.
Dan

[Wilhammer]

If you have the patience, and want to risk injurng yourself, you can click load/unload troops all day long, and load transports up quick.

It is well reported in the bug forum already, but more voices won't hurt.

Essentially, once a TF gets to 900 OPs used in a troop loading operation, it accumulates no more. So if you unload/load, you will, in very small increments, load up quick.

Engineers are small units, so a 2000 point tansport should be able to load one completely in 3 or 4 clickfests, shortening the process form 2-3 days to instant loading.

Bad, bad taste to actually do this to someone.

========================

My personal discovery of this was when I chose the wrong unit to load, and tried to undo it, and found residuals left behind, and then decided to redo my undo, and found more of the unit had got loaded. Well, that was odd, so I experimented.

=========================

There is an island, just west of the Atoll east of Gili Gili, that is capable of being 4 AB and 4 PORT, and it dominates the southern Solomon Sea and the North Coral Sea. It is roughly halfway between PM and Lunga. It is almost always unossupied, and is worth little VPs, but is of tremendous military value. It is tragets like this that are vulnerable to the troop loading clickfest bug. If you had just 1 Assault Point, it will fall if unoccupied.

American enginner units have vehicles (I have not seen any Japanese engineering vehicles), and they operate much faster than those without vehicles.

[U2]

Hi

Thanks Willhammer for the info. I had no idea that it was a known bug. I thought I read them all with the time I spend here:D You are also right that it is indeed bad taste to do this to someone.
Dan

[Wilhammer]

showthread.php?postid=239547#post239547

[MP]

I meant that my American opponent was able to load convoys in zero time. There are legitimate ways to finesse the transport system. For example, I think you can load a large convoy quicker if you load separate convoys in the same port, and then merge them. But repeatedly loading and unloading cargo until your ships are full? Any gamer experienced enough to play UV knows that this is more than finessing the system. Yet I might have played with it if if he had told me about it, or at least posted it to the forum, so we could both use it.

As for the effect on play, I am indeed aware of - and use - the technique of massing American engineers. The limitation in the early part of the game, of course, is that it takes time to load and move convoys of engineers and escorting infantry from Noumea and Luganville to the various bases. He said he was also using destroyer transport, which does load quickly. But the US seemed to have plenty of DDs in combat, so I'm sure he was using transports. Either way, By July '42, he had taken Lunga from me, built a size 6 airfield and size 4 port in Lunga, a size 5 airfield in Dobadura, a size 2 airfield and size 1 port at Rossel Island, a size 2 airfield at Kiriwina and a size 1 at Irau, and an airbase in progress at Woodlark Island. Perhaps it's possible to do this normally by aggressively using destroyer and PBY transport, but the speed at which this occurred was amazing. White stars in green boxes seemed to appear within a few days every time troops landed.

I didn't realize this bug had been already reported.

Michael

[UndercoverNotChickenSalad]

Who did that?

I can understand if you don't want to tell. I probably wouldn't.

I just don't want to get into a 300 turn email game w/ someone who's going do deliberately exploit bugs.

[mogami]

Hi, If someone was nice enough to build all those bases for me I would be very happy. Japan does not lose campaign from allies building bases. Where did the IJN go?

[Point Luck]

Yes this is true for both US and IJN YOU CAN LOAD AN ENTIRE COVOY with ALL the troops it will hold. You can do this all in one turn and then set sail.

I have set up a large enough convoy two hold all the troops of two Rgts as well as a HQ, Engs and Base Force. Of course they load at about 75 troops at a time per unit. There seems to no limit how many convoys you can do in a turn

[MP]

Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, If someone was nice enough to build all those bases for me I would be very happy. Japan does not lose campaign from allies building bases. Where did the IJN go?

No, Japan loses when those Allied bases launch hordes of Dauntlesses. The IJN is sunk or burning from air attacks as well as incredibly effective subs.

I seriously doubt you would have been smiling at all those American bases, Mogami. You can blame Father Time. If the US lands troops on a base, Japan can counterattack before its operational. Or, it can finish its current operation because it takes time to land and then build an airbase on Kiriiwina (conveniently located nine hexes from Rabaul).

But if the US can manipulate the transport system to pump in engineers at double speed, then that size 1 airfield becomes a dive bomber base in half the time. Then there's the supplies and infantry being pumped in, so it's harder to retake. It was delightful to be in the middle of taking Port Moresby when Kiriwina seemed to grow to size 2 overnight and the SDBs came a divin'. By that point, though (the end of June). the US had several Dauntless launch pads.

As for identifying the culprit, I at least have sufficient ethics not to do so. You can send me the name of your opponent, and I'll confirm or deny that he is the one.

Michael

[Chiteng]

To quote Redmon Simonsen (a LONG time ago)
in the game WITP:

'It does little good to build bases and then let the enemy capture them. If you do that, you are making his job EASIER.'
I cant believe that the IJN is sunk in Ironbottom sound
by July/42. Something weird is going on. The USA doesnt have that kind of muscle. I dont care about the size of his bases
I am more than familiar with the units he can put ON them.
There is no way that he has enough planes to make a base that big usefull. He doesnt have the muscle. To place all
your planes on one base is to ASK for a bombardment run. and you WILL get it.

[Chiteng]

Where in hell did he get the Dauntless squadrons?????
He has exactly THREE. Something weird is going on.

[Wilhammer]

Yes, where did the IJN go?

If the Allies did this on a shoestring of clicking, it would be done with small forces.

If the Allies did this with a determination to click all day, then by the time you found out about it, it would of been heavily reinforced.

If a base is lightly held, then as Mogami says, if you take it, the enemy has built a base for you.

Should the opponent over commit on this base building, transport loading click-fest strategy, the danger exists that his rear areas are vulnerable.

Also, it depends on style of play. Some focus on a narrow view, one objective at a time with maximum success by careful commitment of forces and time to guarantee success, one objective at a time, and those who use the 'manuever to confuse' approach, the offensive at many points with the expectation that some may fail with the hope it so upsets the enemy that they lose the initiative at of need to react to every threat, resulting in a loss of battlefield control and splitting of forces for piecemeal destruction. (That has got to be the longest sentence I ever wrote )

Regardless, this exploit of a bug was not 'fair play'.

[Wilhammer]

It sounds like he is exploiting TWO bugs.

Dauntlesses MAY be exploding in number to one of the Air Unit transfer bugs.

I another post, I related how the Nissin was fully loaded with planes, and when I decided to take one of the groups off, I was surprised to find that the squadrons, one on Nisshin, the other on the base island it shared the hex with, went from 12 planes each to 16 planes, and I could not get my planes back on.

I have not really researched much beyond that, but I think it is happening to my carrier units too.

This has two effects;

1. It becomes difficult if not impossible to put all your squadrons back on the carrier after the units have been land based.

2. It brings in replacements before they need to be replaced, resulting in a rapid growth of airpower.

Anyone confirm this happens to American units?

[MP]

I wasn't going to say this because it sounds like whining. But base mania wasn't the only weird aspect of this game.

His subs repeatedly damaged multiple destroyers, cruisers and even the Soryu. I know that others have complained about the ineffectiveness of ASW, but nothing I did seemed to stop them. What was incredible was how his subs were almost always perfectly placed to ambush me. I know subs hang out near Rabaul and the Shortlands, but his timing was uncanny.

His surface ships always seemed to catch that had the fewest escorts. Every time the IJN was in the Slot, his ships were waiting. I know coastwatchers are handy, but again his timing was perfect.

I don't know how many SBDs he had, but in the last turns he seemed to be transferring them constantly to avoid my bombardments of Dobradura and Kiriwina. I would have thought that the fatigue of transfer plus naval strikes woul d have exhausted his airmen.

I don't know how he could have manipulated these factors unless he played and restarted the game. It was probablyclever play on his part or sloppy play on mine. But I could never maintain the initiative without him destroying my plans.

Michael

[Erik Rutins]

Mike,

Very sorry to hear how things turned out. Lots of folks have had nothing but great experiences with UV PBEM, but unfortunately there are always a few bad apples.

Allies can grow bases quickly, but the load/unload bug is definitely not intentional and we'll fix it ASAP. From the rest of what you describe, I have to ask if the game was started in v1.00 such that your opponent could have been clever enough to discover your password?

Regards,

- Erik

[tanjman]

They could have come from his CV's. I remember reading a thread about of loaded CV squadrons swelling and if you leave some behind on the CV they swell to. I did a search but couldn't find it. IIRC a CV was damaged and AC diverted. By them time the carrier could embark its ACG again he could only get his VF (72)and VS (24) on board for a total of 96 aircraft. Maybe this was how it was done? If so Two CV's with 4 x 18 SBD's would swell to 4 x 72 plus what ever other carriers showed up. Micheal did you see his carriers in action?

Cheaters never win in the end. They lose the respect of their peers.

If he did like Erik suggests, then I hope he crawls back under the rock he came from! I bet he cheats at solitaire too! :p

[willgamer]

wilhammer wrote:

I another post, I related how the Nissin was fully loaded with planes, and when I decided to take one of the groups off, I was surprised to find that the squadrons, one on Nisshin, the other on the base island it shared the hex with, went from 12 planes each to 16 planes, and I could not get my planes back on.

Yes. I just finished scen. #6 as the Americans. As I am still relatively new to the game, I tried replacing decimated SBDs on one intact carrier with intact ones from a damaged carrier. I observed the this effect but also noticed that after reloading beyond capacity, on the next turn, the computer had put all the extra planes into reserve leaving the carrier at exactly max (full + 10%) capacity.

[MP]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tanjman
They could have come from his CV's. I remember reading a thread about of loaded CV squadrons swelling and if you leave some behind on the CV they swell to. I did a search but couldn't find it. IIRC a CV was damaged and AC diverted. By them time the carrier could embark its ACG again he could only get his VF (72)and VS (24) on board for a total of 96 aircraft. Maybe this was how it was done? If so Two CV's with 4 x 18 SBD's would swell to 4 x 72 plus what ever other carriers showed up. Micheal did you see his carriers in action?

It's funny you should mention that. I sunk both the Lexington and Yorktown at the beginning of the game. We were at about turn 72 when we stopped, so the Americans couldn't have received any land-based Marine SBD squadrons. My opponent clobbered with carriers with a first strike of 33 SBDs immediately followed by another one of 23 (I think these were a second wave, not the same planes). If he did indeed have 53 SBDs, and given that not every aircraft is launched on a strike, he must have had a considerable number. Perhaps the surviving SBDs from his two carriers had received replacements, or he might have transferred Dauntlesses from his reinforcement CVs to Kiriwina.

Michael