RHS eratta 7.958: Packaged and uploading

[el cid again]

I am reporting things I have corrected but are not yet in issued files.

Air group slot 2014 USN 3rd Transport Flight: Pan American Boeing 314 (Pan Am Clipper)- should be unarmed.

Air group slot 1379 USAAF Pan American Clipper Squadron - should be unarmed.

In both cases the aircraft used is the Coronado - which IS armed - so only the AIR UNIT weapon slots should be zeroed out.

[ChickenOfTheSea]

Ship class 706 (AK Hokko Maru class). SS Radar present in class file. Seems to be absent from ships.

[el cid again]

Like aircraft with multiple loadouts, ships may have variations in RHS. In Japan's early case - it may be that most ships of a class lack radar early in the war - but if any ship has it - it shows up in the class file.

[el cid again]

The Philippine Constabulary 3rd Regiment - location slot 2658 - should be planning for location 640.

[el cid again]

Air group max size should be

slot 1498 4
slot 1496 4
slot 1494 4
slot 1487 4
slot 1480 6
slot 1476 4

[el cid again]

The B-29 as originally built had a 20 mm stinger in the tail. This was deleted later - partly due to a problem with not firing to the same point of aim as the .50 cals - partly to save weight. RHS gives you an aircraft in its original form - but UNITS appearing with a type may have a different loadout. Several late war slots for B-29 units should have no 20 mm tail gun in weapon slot 6. These include

air group slot 1281: 680th Bomb Squadron
slot 1376: 876th Bomb Squadron
slot 1310: 880th Bomb Squadron
slot 1314: 884th Bomb Squadron
slot 1269: 507th Bomb Squadron
slot 1260: 485th Bomb Squadron
slot 1217: 386th Bomb Squadron
slot 1230: 402nd Bomb Squadron
slot 1241: 430th Bomb Squadron
slots 1250 to 1256: 457th to 463rd Bomb Squadrons

In all these cases, EOS family should have the units start at Salt Lake City (loation 330) assigned to US Western Command but CVO and BBO family should have the units start at Pearl Harbor (location 839) assighed to US Pacific Fleet. In some cases this was not consistently so. EOS family includes scenarios 68, 74, 75 and 77. All other scenarios are CVO or BBO families. Exception: Slot 1217 starts at Tacoma Washington (location 895).

[el cid again]

Catalina aircraft slot 177 should have cruising speed of 181, endurance of 1440 (vice 179 and 1461) because no aircraft can have an endurance greater than 1440 in WITP. We adjust the cruising speed so you get the full range.

[el cid again]

First - this is trivial - the date of service should be June 1936 - worth entering only because we are changeing other elements of the record.
Aircraft slot 183.

Second - we are using the most numerous sub variant - S.30 - and using it with reduced payload for extended range - so we need to use a payload value of 4270 pounds - which matters in its BOAC form - a transport. The RAAF/Quantas variant could be armed - in a most improvised sense (door guns and DC apparently kicked out the door) - but stil could fly as a transport - and being rated as a patrol plane - in WITP can also act as a full capability transport. But this datum point - the payload with extended range - was not available before - and should be changed to the 4270 pounds value. Using new data yields that we had estimated the range within four minutes flying time = pretty good. The aircraft experimentally used in flight refueling to cross the Atlantic - until it was realized that it could take off with the extra fuel! I was not aware that in flight refueling was actually developed for civilians BEFORE WWII - but it was - for this aircraft - and modified bombers were for a time stationed in UK and Newfoundland to act as tankers for them. When it was realized the planes could take off safely with the needed fuel, it became an SOP to fly long distances that way - wihtout resorting to refueling - and that is the form we are using here.

Third - the RAAF No 20 Squadron should start the game with 3 Empire Flying Boats (it is correctly at Port Moresby). Air group 1491.
It is armed - Pattern of 2 small DC (device 105) in weapon slot 2 facing external; 2 .303 Vickers MMG facing side (device 151) is weapon slot 1. This unit should continue to upgrade to Catalina.

Fourth - the Quantas C Class Flight should be unarmed. Air group 1534.

Sixth - the pool should be reduced to 15 machines - and that is generous. 1 plane was destroyed in 1939. 3 others are now in No 20 squadron.

Seventh - Catalina pool should increase to 39 - because we have removed 6 machines from No 20 Squadron.

[el cid again]

Aircraft slot 194 should be Liberator VI/B-24J vice Liberator IV/B-24E - which if designated never actually served in RAF - and never in PTO. Date of service in PTO 1/44. Armed as already shown, but cruising speed 201 for endurance 1440 minutes. Effective ceiling 24400 feet. Max speed 300. ROC 1025. Max Load same as all B-24s - even transports - 8800 - due to armor difficult to remove.

[el cid again]

B-25J slot 116 endurance should be 767 minutes.
B-25H slot 115 endurance should be 760 minutes.
B-25C/D slot 114 endurance should be 834 minutes.
Mitchell III slot 198 endurance should be 960 minutes (same aircraft as slot 116 operated at lower cruising speed).

[Bogo Mil]

I think you should revise the arrival date of aircraft squadrons with brand new types. If they arrive too early, there are not enough planes in the pool and the units arrive downgraded to something else (Allied) or understrength with missing pilots (Japanese). That's quite annoying and it's most probably not intentional, is it?

In my game vs. AI (MAIO), I got a Wellington unit downgraded to Blenheim IV. That's not too bad - I can upgrade once I have enough in the pool. But shifting it 10 days back would solve the problem easily (40 produced/month from a factory upgrade, thus 16 planes should be guaranteed after 4/20 or so).

Now I'm in May, and it becomes worse: Two Beaufort units will arrive soon. These are (T) units, if they are downgraded they will lose their torpedoes and this can not be corrected afterwards. The first will have 8 aircraft - I downgraded the two South African bomber units I had right from the start (5+6 planes), so I will receive this unit. But downgrading units to put planes in the pool is something I dislike very much. The next unit shall have 16 aircraft and will arrive a bit later (5/10/42 +- 2 days). Production started at 1 factory and increases to 24 over the month, thus it is very unlikely to have enough planes in time. Suggestion: Let both units arrive at least a month later. Let them arrive in Karachi, Bombay or Colombo (instead of Aden) to compensate the delay.

If I don't forget it again, I will write down the exact names of these units tonight and post them tommorrow...

[el cid again]

Pe-2 aircraft slot 232 has the nickname Peshka added so it becomes

Pe-2 Peshka

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

I think you should revise the arrival date of aircraft squadrons with brand new types. If they arrive too early, there are not enough planes in the pool and the units arrive downgraded to something else (Allied) or understrength with missing pilots (Japanese). That's quite annoying and it's most probably not intentional, is it?

REPLY: It is a difficult issue with several dimensions. Originally I was revising aircraft for CHS under supervision by Joe - concluded that it was a big problem that air groups could upgrade early. One problem is that planes go from factory to the most distant field in a single instant - which of course is nonsense: so the standard was defined as "first operational date in PTO for any unit." Granted that this means not many are available up front - that also is correct - production phases in - and indeed - it phases in too fast in WITP most of the time. However - for some types - low totals result in low monthly production which prevents units from converting over at a reasonable time. A very few adjustments have been made - it would take weeks to review all possibilities and enter the data - which does not seem worth it at this stage when AE is expected. Nevertheless - the "reform" we introduced caused its own problems as you describe - and it may be there is a happier compromise. One I have toyed with but never implemented is to forward date production a month. This is just a mitigator - but going a lot ahead of that gets us back where we started - with planes too soon. Originally I tried a different solution - planes in the pool - but in that case - you can use them without waiting for production. We kept that for only a few cases - because there was some use of preproduction machines in evaluation units - but often it is not reasonable.

In my game vs. AI (MAIO), I got a Wellington unit downgraded to Blenheim IV. That's not too bad - I can upgrade once I have enough in the pool. But shifting it 10 days back would solve the problem easily (40 produced/month from a factory upgrade, thus 16 planes should be guaranteed after 4/20 or so).

REPLY: This isn't an option: we do not have control of production by day - only by month. Look at the aircraft database: you can specify the month and year - but not the day - production begins. It always starts on the first of each month.

Now I'm in May, and it becomes worse: Two Beaufort units will arrive soon. These are (T) units, if they are downgraded they will lose their torpedoes and this can not be corrected afterwards. The first will have 8 aircraft - I downgraded the two South African bomber units I had right from the start (5+6 planes), so I will receive this unit. But downgrading units to put planes in the pool is something I dislike very much. The next unit shall have 16 aircraft and will arrive a bit later (5/10/42 +- 2 days). Production started at 1 factory and increases to 24 over the month, thus it is very unlikely to have enough planes in time. Suggestion: Let both units arrive at least a month later. Let them arrive in Karachi, Bombay or Colombo (instead of Aden) to compensate the delay.

If I don't forget it again, I will write down the exact names of these units tonight and post them tommorrow...

This latter "problem" is a misunderstanding of how RHS works - but it probably IS a problem with some units other than the ones you are looking at. Since the torpedo is default armament for a Beaufort - whenever you upgrade to that aircraft - you are going to get torpedo armament. Production rate for the Beaufort is eventually 26 - so coming a month early would get you about 16 or 17 extra machines (about 25 days to ramp up - so you will get about 13 in the first 26 days - and then about 3 or 4 more in the next 4 or 5 days) - that being the compromise I have long considered but never implemented. It would take a long time to look at every possible case for both sides - and then enter it for every scenario.

[Bogo Mil]

About nicknames: I-16 is nicknamed "Moska" in RHS - this is wrong, imho. The I-16 type 6 was nicknamed "Mosca" (Spanish for fly) in the Spanish civil war. The I-16 type 10 was the "Super Mosca" or short "Super" - and in witp the Soviets have even more modern I-16s. The most common Russian nickname of the plane was "Ishak" (donkey), though it never got an official name (as most Russian planes, "Peshka" was informal, too). The Germans called it "Rata" (Spanish for rat, also from the Civil War, but used for all types).

[el cid again]

I took it from The Encyclopedia of Russian Aircraft (Brasseys) by a British aviation authority (Bill Gunston) who was permitted to extensively interview all the old designers before they died. His writing is very cryptic - he omits words to save space - and you may well have better information. Another problem is that there are a number of versions of the I-16 - indeed we have two different versions in RHS - the ROC one being older - and neither is in production any more. We could go with Ishak if it was more common.

Follow up: This is of course pure chrome - but RHS is full of it - for flavor - and to help identify things more specifically.
I decided to name the late Russian I-16 in Soviet Service Ishak - it is the Type 24 - and the earlier ROC I-16 will retain the Moska nickname. It is at least "spiritually" correct - being associated with an earlier version.

Note we have a Russian dive bomber classified as a horizontal bomber - for technical reasons - and due to how it was often used - and another Russian plane is classified as Patrol - for mission reasons - so it can serve in a transport squadron as well as a navy patrol squadron - not because it is a flying boat. If I could I would allow the Russian version of the DC-3 to be a bomber-transport. RHS put a lot of effort into Russian aircraft - and air organizations (TOF is Pacific Ocean Fleet for example - wholly absent before RHS added it) - and indeed - while ROC always operated the IL-4 - the Russians didn't before RHS. We added KOR-1 floatplanes for cruisers and certain land based formations. But there are lots of problems to work out - not least being a lack of good data on when exactly what unit showed up with exactly what equipment? [We see them in a 1945 OB - not in a 1941 OB - but when did they get there?] Any information is always welcome.

Some new OB stuff has just been published as well on the N site - but I have not yet examined it: here is the message from a member of the Forum:


On Niehorster site is a Complete update for the 9 August 1945 Soviet Far East Command order of battle


http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/012_uss ... /_fec.html

http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/012_uss ... e_tank.htm

http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/012_uss ... isions.htm


And also the order of battle for the US Marine Corps on 7 December 1941 isbeen revised and redone,

http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/013_usa ... _usmc.html

Also updated are
08.12.1941 Royal New Zealand Navy
08.12.1941 Royal Australian Navy
08.12.1941 Royal New Zealand Air Force

Greeting from the Netherlands

Crazy Dutch

[Bogo Mil]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
I decided to name the late Russian I-16 in Soviet Service Ishak - it is the Type 24 - and the earlier ROC I-16 will retain the Moska nickname.

You should write "Mosca" with c, it's a Spanish name originally. The k probably originates in a re-transcription from kyrillic letters.

If I could I would allow the Russian version of the DC-3 to be a bomber-transport.

Why? There was a bombing variant (Li-2VV) and even a recon (Li-2R), but the ability to carry troops is much more important, imho.

I would reclassify the I-153 to FB - in WW2 it was used as attack aircraft almost exclusively. The Il-2 should be reclassified, too. The plane didn't have any dive brakes, so it's not a DB. Usually it did low level strafing attacks. It's hard to fit this plane into the game engine - it's a pity that there is no "attack" class. Maybe it should be a LB, maybe even a FB (escort and CAP would not be allowed by primary house rule, of course).

RHS put a lot of effort into Russian aircraft - and air organizations (TOF is Pacific Ocean Fleet for example - wholly absent before RHS added it) - and indeed - while ROC always operated the IL-4 - the Russians didn't before RHS. We added KOR-1 floatplanes for cruisers and certain land based formations. But there are lots of problems to work out - not least being a lack of good data on when exactly what unit showed up with exactly what equipment? [We see them in a 1945 OB - not in a 1941 OB - but when did they get there?] Any information is always welcome.

I'm not sure if it makes much sense to research this very accurately. There are basically 2 possible scenarios: First, the game goes "historically correct" and the USSR doesn't enter the conflict before summer '45. In this scenario, it doesn't matter at all, which units and types they have earlier. The second scenario is an early activation. This is clearly "what-if" -- we don't know how Stavka had reacted, which forces they had sent etc. Probably not exactly the same forces they sent without the "activation".

Some thoughts about this "what-if": The far eastern front would most probably have low priority at least until the western front was finally stabilized after the battle of Kursk in july 1943. I think the best stuff would go west, and they'd send second class equipment to the east. I would cut down the production of Mig-3, Yak-1, Il-2 etc. to quite small numbers, but add several I-153 and I-16 factories. In 1943, all the small factories of Mig, Lagg, Yak could upgrade to one modern fighter (e.g. La-5FN). The large I-16 factory upgrades to another one (e.g. Yak-9D), I-153 upgrades to Il-2M3.

Maybe some of the Soviet squadrons could start the war with the Chinese version of their planes. The Chinese pool should be reduced and the Soviet pool increased accordingly. Then the player can choose, if these planes should be "exported" to China (by upgrading the units to the Soviet version), or used to defend Russia.

[ny59giants]

In RHSMAIO, the Americans get 3 squadrons of B-18 Bolo's that you have named Recon or Photo Recon (ID 1326, 1981, & 1983). Their upgrade paths go to more level bomber and have F7/PB4Y as the only recon type aircraft, but those are not available until late in the war. I'm in mid-4/42 and just started getting the F-4's. It would be nice for these three squadrons to be able to go to Recon type aircraft.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

ORIGINAL: el cid again
I decided to name the late Russian I-16 in Soviet Service Ishak - it is the Type 24 - and the earlier ROC I-16 will retain the Moska nickname.

You should write "Mosca" with c, it's a Spanish name originally. The k probably originates in a re-transcription from kyrillic letters.

REPLY: Sehr interissieren - good speculation.

If I could I would allow the Russian version of the DC-3 to be a bomber-transport.

Why? There was a bombing variant (Li-2VV) and even a recon (Li-2R), but the ability to carry troops is much more important, imho.

I would reclassify the I-153 to FB - in WW2 it was used as attack aircraft almost exclusively.

REPLY: Fighter bomers are less effective than either fighters or bombers - and better at nothing apparently (see the manual).
Are you sure this is a good idea? WITP terms are wierd - they don't always mean what they seem to say. Fighter bombers are almost exclusively two engine planes - probably should only be used that way - to indicate less performance in fighter role I guess. Fighters can bomb if they have bombs.


The Il-2 should be reclassified, too. The plane didn't have any dive brakes, so it's not a DB. Usually it did low level strafing attacks. It's hard to fit this plane into the game engine - it's a pity that there is no "attack" class. Maybe it should be a LB, maybe even a FB (escort and CAP would not be allowed by primary house rule, of course).

REPLY: I had the impression it was a dive bomber. Even so, the greatest bombing accuracy comes from glide bombing - a shallow angle dive bombing technique - was it used that way? Here we are interested in getting the right accuracy table - and also the AA model - at what altitude does it end up? If it dives into the target low AAA should get a shot - if not - not.

[el cid again]

I'm not sure if it makes much sense to research this very accurately. There are basically 2 possible scenarios: First, the game goes "historically correct" and the USSR doesn't enter the conflict before summer '45. In this scenario, it doesn't matter at all, which units and types they have earlier. The second scenario is an early activation. This is clearly "what-if" -- we don't know how Stavka had reacted, which forces they had sent etc. Probably not exactly the same forces they sent without the "activation".

Some thoughts about this "what-if": The far eastern front would most probably have low priority at least until the western front was finally stabilized after the battle of Kursk in july 1943. I think the best stuff would go west, and they'd send second class equipment to the east. I would cut down the production of Mig-3, Yak-1, Il-2 etc. to quite small numbers, but add several I-153 and I-16 factories. In 1943, all the small factories of Mig, Lagg, Yak could upgrade to one modern fighter (e.g. La-5FN). The large I-16 factory upgrades to another one (e.g. Yak-9D), I-153 upgrades to Il-2M3.

Maybe some of the Soviet squadrons could start the war with the Chinese version of their planes. The Chinese pool should be reduced and the Soviet pool increased accordingly. Then the player can choose, if these planes should be "exported" to China (by upgrading the units to the Soviet version), or used to defend Russia.

These matters lie at the heart of modding - and there is no actually "right" solution - just compromises.

In my view a war game is a simulation of a world that BEGINS at a historical point (or modified historical point with different assumptions) but then GOES DIFFERENTLY FROM HISTORY because of player choices and their interactions.
On the other hand, we cannot know what those choices will be - before the fact - designing the scenario.

If we were to allow the Russians to use the ROC I-16 - which is historically false - it was no longer in Soviet service - we also would have to accept "wrong" plane art - the early I-16 has ROC markings. This often happens later in the game when ROC and other Allies upgrade to US or CW or even Russian plane types - but it is not ideal.

We cannot have a different factory upgrade to a different type unless it has a different type in production - the upgrade is determined by plane type. Still - the idea of upgrading from one kind of plane to a different kind entirely is useful - and already done where historically that happened - in some RHS cases. Indian Air Force and USMC fighter squadrons start with observation planes which upgrade to fighters. Some other cases exist where a bomber becomes a transport on upgrade - or vice versa - or recon - or a dive bomber becomes a fighter bomber, etc. This is only done for historical reasons now - but we might want to do it for other reasons - particularly in the non strictly historical scenarios - if it fit the rationale of the scenario. When we have more plane slots in AE we will also have more options.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

In RHSMAIO, the Americans get 3 squadrons of B-18 Bolo's that you have named Recon or Photo Recon (ID 1326, 1981, & 1983). Their upgrade paths go to more level bomber and have F7/PB4Y as the only recon type aircraft, but those are not available until late in the war. I'm in mid-4/42 and just started getting the F-4's. It would be nice for these three squadrons to be able to go to Recon type aircraft.

USAAF squadrons are defined by the USAAF squadron history. But there is a problem: we cannot define more than one upgrade. IRL a unit might operate more than one aircraft at the same time, and it might upgrade to several different kinds along the way - even sometimes back to an earlier type. WITP mechanics permit us to define ONE upgrade for the ONE plane type a unit starts with - AND ONE upgrade for the unit. The options list - which does not work as Matrix manual and programmers say it does - includes BOTH the upgrade for the aircraft type AND the upgrade for the unit. Once you take one of these - you may get different options than you had before. And sometimes wierd things appear on the list - including impossible options - no one knows why? The F7 is a strange plane - and I probably did what I did so it could appear in the units it should appear in. This suggestion may be better than trying to tie the upgrade path strictly to insure that happens. But remember - a bomber upgrade is a legitimate option for a recon unit - and strict players would not use such bombers for non recon missions. In the case of the B-29 I didn't make a separate recon version - due to slot limits - and due to range problems (the B-29 has more range than the system can handle already - and the only way to give a recon ship more range is to lie about cruising speed). But a recon unit with B-29s should not be used for bombing IMHO.
The range is great enough that it isn't really a problem either - you can fly almost anywhere from almost anywhere else as it is. Anyway - I will look at these units - and consider options - possibly different ones for different families.