Question for the TOE experts and Modelers

[rickier65]

First background -

I have some time on my hands now to get back to a project I was starting just before Stridor starting putting out new MM Guide versions.

I'm trying to put together an OOB for some units with eventual thoughts of making a campiagn.

I'm using a few sources for the TOE, the primary source being Nafziger's Panzers and Artillery in WWII (mainly because I have it), but also some others from online.

It appears the the Pz Battalion HQ Companies I'm looking at had a couple of PzBefWg PzMk III's. From some other sources, it appears these are PzMk III's with dummy Guns (mouting only functional MG's).

First question, can anyone confirm that this is the case? ie that the PzBefWg only had dummy main armaments?

Second question, I had originally thought I should just drop them from OOB (if they don't have a main gun), but on reflection, it occurred to me that perhaps I should leave them in as they might be useful as spotters, and to provide high VP value dummy target. Opinions?

third question, if that's the case, is it as simple as using the data and models for the existing PzMk III's and removing the data for the main armament and renaming it?

Thanks
Rick

[Mraah]

Here's a screenshot of a PzBefWg III ... Definately looks different ... from wiki.

Panzerbefehlswagen III - Command tank. Heavier armor, dummy gun, and long-range radios.

Jugoslawien.- Panzersoldat im Turm eines Panzer III (Sd.Kfz. 141; Panzerbefehlswagen) in Fahrt; PK 691

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: Rick

third question, if that's the case, is it as simple as using the data and models for the existing PzMk III's and removing the data for the main armament and renaming it?

You'll have to do two things :

1. Remove the firingpoint01 bone from the turret X file
2. Remove the gun entry for the 50mm from the XML

Should work after that.

Rob

EDIT NOTE : It's best to make a duplicate III folder ... and rename PzBefWg III ... then duplicate any PzKpfw III xml and edit the changes and point it to the new folder.

EDIT NOTE # 2 ... If you want ... Make a new Tank Commander figure using Fragmotion ... Give the commander an officers hat, like in the picture from the previous post [:)]

[RyanCrierie]

You also have to add the rear aerial on the back.

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: RyanCrierie

You also have to add the rear aerial on the back.

Good point [:(].

I checked The-BluePrints and they only have a 35(t), 38(t) Hezter, and Ib [:(].

Any of you guys have any good line drawings?

The only problem with adding this vehicle is that PcK will generate a full platoon of these [:(], whereas we only want the HQ unit to have this model. Of course, it will work in a campaign game if set as a CORE or AUX vehicle ... but against the Germans you might get a full platoon of them unless you specify a core or aux unit for the defending Germans.

Rob

EDIT NOTE : In other words ... To assure you don't see the PzBefWg in the vanilla campaigns you'd have to give this a medprev=0

[rickier65]

Thanks Rob and Ryan,

That's a bit more modeling than I can handle. I can edit a text file, but I'll leave the modeling to you guys that understand bones and .x files -

I'll have to think on this.

Thanks!
Rick

[Mobius]

I wouldn't bother with the PzBefWg as the game is now. It just is a target with the same chance of radio contact as any other HQ unit.
You might try just dropping the main gun from the xml and leaving the MG34. That might work.
I don't know if elite units have a higher chance of radio contact but if you include the PzBefWg make it elite in case they do.

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

I wouldn't bother with the PzBefWg as the game is now. It just is a target with the same chance of radio contact as any other HQ unit.
You might try just dropping the main gun from the xml and leaving the MG34. That might work.
I don't know if elite units have a higher chance of radio contact but if you include the PzBefWg make it elite in case they do.

Thanks! That worked I have the Pz BefWg III. It 'looks' like a regular Pz, but it doesn't have the main gun.

Another question, there is an attribute called atrribute --> name (right now it says Medium Tank.

I couldn't find documenation on what this attribute was used for. Does someone here know?

I'm going to try changing it to Command Tank and see what happens.

(and Mobius - I may not end up putting these in units, not sure, though the Div I'm looking at had 15 of them on 6/22/41 If I do put them in, it may be as assets German player should protect). Still pondering - But mainly wanted to sort out if I could even do the correct TOE. (maybe I'll have them in as Low prob. Auxialliry units

Thanks!
Rick

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: Rick



Another question, there is an attribute called atrribute --> name (right now it says Medium Tank.

I couldn't find documenation on what this attribute was used for. Does someone here know?

I'm going to try changing it to Command Tank and see what happens.

Don't do that !!!! It will crash Pck.

Valid attributes (from the GameLib.dll):

Squad Team InfantryGun LightGun MediumGun HeavyGun LightMortar HeavyMortar LightMG MediumMG HeavyMG LightTank MediumTank HeavyTank Radio Spotter Recon Halftrack Scoutcar Truck AssaultGun Indirectfire Fighter Divebomber Fighterbomber Bomber Rocket CommandRadio Sniper TacticalAntiair Staticfire Stabilizer Fragile TowLight TowMedium TowHeavy Unreliable Amphibious OpenTop

Mind you, I don't know if they all work [&:]

Rob

NOTE : You can see Radio and CommandRadio [&:]

You can mix them together under two or more sections ... like ... HalfTrack , OpenTop, Recon .

[Mraah]

These also might work ... as a secondary or tertiary attribute ( I know sharpshooter works)

BlackWoundBadge SilverWoundBadge GoldWoundBadge IronCross2nd IronCross1st KnightsCross InfantryAssaultBadge WarMeritCross2nd WarMeritCross1st GermanCross PanzerAssaultBadgeBronze PanzerAssaultBadgeSilver TankDestroyBadgeSiver TankDestroyBadgeGold CloseCombatBar BraveryMedal MilitaryMeritMedal OrderOfRedStar OrderOfLenin HeroOfTheSovietUnion OrderOfPatrioticWar2nd OrderOfPatrioticWar1st OrderOfAlexanderNevsky OrderOfRedBanner PanzerAce TankAce VeteranSargeant Inflitration VeteranDriver CloseAssaultHero SharpShooter

[rickier65]

I'll try commandradio, actually, i did Commandtank and it did nothing, but I'll shift to commandradio - thats what theyre for anyway.

Thanks
RIck

[spellir74]

INFO sheet on Pz.Bef.Wg (Beflwgs). This hasn't been boiled down fully (just a little).

=======
Pz.Bef.Wg.

Generally armoured command tanks (Panzerbefehlswagen Pz.Bef.Wg.) where used by the commander of the armoured regiment (Panzerregiment), his staff and also by the commanders of the armoured battalion (Panzerabteilung) and their staff.

The Pz.Bef.Wg. of the Panzerregiment headquarters usually were numbered like R01, R02 .... The vehicles of the Panzerabteilung were numered linke I01, I02..., II01, II02..., (I, II, III indicates the first secend or third Panzerabteilung of a Panzerregiment). In independent Panzerabteilungen they were only numbered like 01, 02....

Pz.Bef.Wg. were not built for fighting. Their main objective was to keep steady flow of communication between command post, airforce(Luftwaffe), companies and platoons. For this purpose, they were equipped with several types of radios which needed a lot of space in the tank (when WWII starts a ordinary battletank had only a radio receiver). Pz.Bef.Wg. usually were equipped with radio types Fu.G.5 and Fu.G.8 (Sd.Kfz 267) or Fu.G.5 and Fu.G.7 (Sd.Kfz 268).

(For more information about german radios:
www.tigertank-h-e-181.com )

In the beginning of WWII, Pz.Bef.Wg. were designed by using the hull of the Pz.Kwg I. Because space had to be cleared for the radio equipment and the third member of the crew (driver, commander, radio operator), it was not possible to design the outer shape of the PzBefWg.I like the ordinary PzKwg.I which had only a crew of two. So the turret with its two MG was removed and a superstructure like a tower with a simple cupola for the commander and one MG for self-defence was installed. The first few vehicles where equipped with a frame shape aerial.

All in all this vehicle was easily recognisable as special on the battlefield and an easily destroyable preferred target.

The Germans were conscious of this fact and as a result in 1938 the Sd.Kfz 266/267/268 Pz.Bef.Wg. III was developed.

This Pz.Bef.Wg. was designed on the hull and turret of the Pz.Kwg. III. To clear space for the radio equipment the turret received only a dummy-gun made of wood and only one MG (instead of two) for self-defence. Traversing the turret was not neccessary so it was fixed to the hull. The third MG in the bow of the tank was also removed. Looking from a distance the frame aerial was the only obvious difference between the Pz.Kwg. III and the Pz.Bef.Wg. III. The distinctive frame aerial above the engine compartment, was replaced by a pole-type aerial ("Star" D) from 1943 on.

After implementation of PzBefWg III D1 (in 1938), PzBefWg III E (in 1939-March 1940) and PzBefWg III H (from November 1940 on), the _PzBefWg III Ausf K_, was released (from August 1942 to August 1943). This was the first series which had only pole-type aerials. It also changed the dummy-gun for a 5cm KwK 39 L/60 to improve its ability for self-defence.

In 1942 the PzKwg VI (Tiger) appeared. Schw PzAbt (heavy tank units) were equipped with Sd.Kfz 267/268 PzBefWg VI (TIGER I) Ausf A and in 1943 Sd.Kfz 267/268 PzBefWg. V (Panther); the PzBefWg III was the only type of PzBefWg. used in the tank units.

As of March 1944 a PzBefWg IV was designed and introduced in minor numbers, mainly by modification of damaged PzKwg IV G and H. Like the PzBefWg III K, PzBefWg V and PzBefWg VI, it had a usuable [non-dummy] gun (7,5cm KwK 40 L43) and only pole-type aerials. Space was cleared for the radios by reducing the number of rounds of main gun ammunition.

--------
From 1941 on each Panzerregiment should have a headquarters unit (Stab, Panzerbefehlstrupp), an armoured communication unit (Panzernachrichtenzug) equipped with 2 Pz.Bef.Wg III and 1 Pz.Kpfw. III, a light tank platoon equipped with 5 Pz.Kpfw. II and two tank battalions (Panzerabteilungen).

A Panzerabteilung should consist of a headquarters company (Stabskompanie) equipped with 2 Pz.Bef.Wg. III und 5 Pz.Kpfw. II, one medium tank company (mittelschwere Panzerkompanie) equipped with 14 Pz.Kpfw. IV and 5 Pz:Kpfw. II and two light tank companies (leichte Panzerkompanien) each equipped with 17 Pz.Kpfw. III and 5 Pz.Kpfw. II.

A Panzerregiment should equipped with 6 Pz.Bef.Wg III, 45 Pz.Kpfw. II, 69 Pz.Kpfw. III and 28 Pz.Kpfw. IV.
But because the german Panzerdivisions suffered from losses during battles they were reorganized differently from standard organisation schemes. Others were organised diffently by special order.

----------
How the 3. Panzerdivision was organized in spring and summer 1943...

The centralized tank unit of the 3. Panzerdivision was the 6. Panzerregiment (6th armoured regiment). Until March 15th 1943 it had three battalions. Then the thrid battalion was canceled and the remaining rest of its companies were spread over the other two battalions.

Previous to Operation Zitadelle, the Battle of Kursk, the first battalion was sent to France for reequipping with Pz.Kwg V (Panther) which took place about August 6th 1943.

Therefore only 2nd battalion was available for 6. Panzerregiment.

At the beginning of Operation Zitadelle (July 5th – July 13th 1943) 2nd battalion of 6. Panzerregiment was equipped with 7 Pz.Kpfw. II, 23 Pz.Kpfw. III short (kurz 7,5cm KwK 37 L/24), 34 Pz.Kpfw. III long (lang, 5cm KwK 39 L/60), 2 Pz.Kpfw. IV short (kurz 7,5cm KwK 37 L/24), 21 Panzer IV long (lang, 7,5cm KwK 40 L/43) and only one Pz.Bef.Wg III!

So there were no Pz.Bef.Wg IV and only one Pz.Bef.Wg III!


(Edited from a Richtkreis orig.)
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google search too.

[spellir74]

I don't know what this gunless pzbfwg is. I assume it is a bfwg PzI without the road wheel stablizer bar. (A little help please?)

[Mobius]

In Panzer War this is how we used these.
1. A. Pz.Bef.Wg can call and link to all of a player’s available artillery batteries. One turn delay for each level above local attached batteries.
2. +2 in getting radio contact.

In PW a FO or Command element can only call one battery at a time unlike in PCK where they can call all of a players batteries and target them separately. Even a Pz.Bef.Wg in PW cannot give different targets the same turn to different batteries.

[JMass]

ORIGINAL: spellir74

I don't know what this gunless pzbfwg is. I assume it is a bfwg PzI without the road wheel stablizer bar. (A little help please?)

It is the Krupp 1937 prototype LKA export tank, the Kleine Pz Bef Wg is this:

[rickier65]

Thanks folks

And thanks Spellir74 - I tried the links at bottom of your post, nut none worked for me. (I had done some research and found a fair bit of info - it's why I decided on the PzIII for the PzBefWg for 6/22/1941. (Based on this I'll probably change from the PzIIIG chassis to the PzIIIH chassis. (assuming it has summer and winter models in PCK).

Everyone's been a big help. What I'm going to try and do is put together Battles Plans and Presets to incorporate the entire 3rd Panzer Division. Mainly trying to see how these all fit together. Maybe try a Campaign around the third as well.

Now if there was a way for the Scenario Editor to also parse presets and/or Battle plans to establish available force selection lists.

Thanks!
Rick


Edit I've changed the chassis to the IIIH. removed the main gun, removed the two hull MG, but put in a single MG in hull. Having the gun in the hull should make it so turret doesnt rotate.

Thanks!
Rick

[spellir74]

Thanks JMass. Kleine Pz Bef Wg.

[spellir74]

Sorry about the links. I had those sitting in that INFO sheet waiting for me to get around to a bef wg project (but you're beating me to it). (I'm stuck in a PzC art project now that keeps ...pulling me back in.)

I should have checked 'em before I posted here.

I'm going to edit them out of there.

[spellir74]

ORIGINAL: Rick

Thanks folks

And thanks Spellir74 - I tried the links at bottom of your post, nut none worked for me. (I had done some research and found a fair bit of info - it's why I decided on the PzIII for the PzBefWg for 6/22/1941. (Based on this I'll probably change from the PzIIIG chassis to the PzIIIH chassis. (assuming it has summer and winter models in PCK).

Everyone's been a big help. What I'm going to try and do is put together Battles Plans and Presets to incorporate the entire 3rd Panzer Division. Mainly trying to see how these all fit together. Maybe try a Campaign around the third as well.

Now if there was a way for the Scenario Editor to also parse presets and/or Battle plans to establish available force selection lists.

Thanks!
Rick


Edit I've changed the chassis to the IIIH. removed the main gun, removed the two hull MG, but put in a single MG in hull. Having the gun in the hull should make it so turret doesnt rotate.

Thanks!
Rick

To 'de-rotate' a turret maybe you could, in the Armoured Unit XML, change _turretrotation="RM"_ to _turretrotation=""_ (with the quotes but without the underscores). It is in the top lines of the XML.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Rick

What I'm going to try and do is put together Battles Plans and Presets to incorporate the entire 3rd Panzer Division.

Thanks!
Rick

Do you have an OOB for the time period you are looking at? Or just using a standard OOB/TO&E for the division?

Were you wanting them in June 41 or another period?

Good Hunting.

MR