production, PP, balance

WW2: Road to Victory is the first grand strategy release from IQ Software/Wastelands Interactive, which covers World War II in Europe and the Mediterranean. Hex-based and Turn-based, it allows you to choose any combination of Axis, Allied, Neutral, Major or Minor countries to play and gives you full control over production, diplomacy, land, air and naval strategy. Start your campaign in 1939, 1940 or 1941 and see if you can better the results of your historical counterparts. A series of historical events and choices add flavor and strategic options for great replayability.
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gwgardner
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production, PP, balance

Post by gwgardner »

snipped from another thread:
ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung


As to the issue of naval, U-Boat, simulation in this game. How many of our Axis players make the very painful decisions the historic Germans did. U-Boat production, naval production by the Germans was "painful". Weinberg points out how many tanks were not built with the production of a sub, not to mention the surface fleet which was still worked on so late in the war. How many of our Axis players build a navy when faced with the choice to build less tanks. Someone once characterized many players of this game as pushing tanks along the steppes. We are not a crew who hit the "Deploy new ship" button often. The Germans had subs because they made painful choices to plow PP into subs, something few of us do. This game has a mechanism to produce much more naval power for the Axis, but few choose to use it.

I pulled out this snippet from another thread because I didn't want to join into the overall and myriad issues addressed there. Good points made by all, actually, over there.

This snippet however brought to my mind this perhaps unremarkable thought: why can't the developers or a modder simply write down a list of all the subs, tank divisions, motorized divisions, infantry divisions, bombers, fighters, paratroopers, etc. that were historically produced by a given country, then extrapolate from that the number of PPs that should be available to that country?

Unremarkable, but obviously not done, so far. Because the tradeoffs are not there in the game right now, really. The German player, for instance, doesn't decide whether to produce 1 sub rather than 3, or 1 tank division or 1 air unit, he can only say, 'No tanks, no subs, no air units. Period.'

James, Michael or Chuck, you have all expressed the idea in one way or another, that for any given country, whether the US or Germany or England, the choices of what to produce should be painful. I add only: there should be a choice! Right now there's not.

Mike Parker
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RE: production, PP, balance

Post by Mike Parker »

Likely outside of the scope of the game as it now exists, but something like a list such as
 
Germany
Inf Div  60
Arm Div 9
Airbourne Div 1
Air Div  5
BB  3
CA  5
SS  18
 
And give a production PP cost break of the player is below these amounts.  With a Corp counting as 3 Divisions.. so in the above example 60 Inf Div or 20 Inf Corp or anythng between.  Something like this sure might help things, and it would also be something the AI could use as a guideline for what to build.
 
 
Now to address your Question.  I sometimes build some Naval with the Italians, but never with the Germans.  Germany is certainly a Ground First power, and I never have enough PP for the Armour/Motorized forces I would like, much less a combat capable airforce and airbourne contingent.  I would build the Bismark and Tirpitz if I had the extra 400 PP, but I would rather have a front line Mechanized Corp or half an Air Army.
 
That coupled with the fact your already behind the 8-ball as the Germans tech-wise compared to your only Naval Rival the UK.  You could hardly afford a warship lab while they have one in the bag.
 
The Naval game is not a total loss, it can be fixed, we will see what the patch brings, but in addition upping the tech level of the kriegsmarine.
 
Even some simple events could help.  Something like
 
Event: Complete the Bismark
When: August 1940
Text:  The keel of the mighty Bismark was lain down in 1936, but she was not commissioned until August 1940.  This ships was one of the most advanced and formidable warships of WWII but came at a cost to the German War Effort.
 
Possibility 1:  Complete the Bismark!
-100 PP
+1 BB
+10 DP
Possibility 2:  We need more Panzers!
+50 PP
 
Event: Build the Tirpitz
When: February 1941
Text:  The keel of the Bismark's Sister ship the Tirpitz was lain down in 1936, but she was not commissioned until February 1941.  Another formidible Capital ship its construction would come at a cost to other heavy building projects
 
Possibility 1:  Build the Tirpitz!
-150 PP
+1 BB
+5 DP
Possibility 2:  We cannot afford this ship!
 
SOme things like this could sure help.
James Ward
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RE: production, PP, balance

Post by James Ward »

When you look at what this game does well it is apparent that the naval and air portions are not going to be well simulted in the sense that you use the units like you do in most other games. This is a land game first and it can be damn fun. 
The naval portion needs a major overhaul in order to fit into the game. I like the idea of subs and shipping being abstracted to represent 'effort' and having the whole sub war resolved under convoys. The more effort (pp's or sub units) you put in the better your result. That was the main purpose of these units. Carriers, BB & CA units could be included for support of invasions with possibly a comparision of strengths in a zone to determine if you could invade from a given sea zone and how much support you would have for you invasion. 
I'm ok with the air system because I look at my air units as a concentration of effort not as units to be used to attack any target of opportunity. I assume there are built in tactical air with my units so when I commit my air units it is for a specific purpose, invasion support, capturing a key city, things like that. I don't think I have ever built an additional air unit as Germany.
As Germany I can generally build some armour units, never enough it seems but that's another story. I almost always have trouble maintaining my units near full strength after 41 as Germany which is how it should be. 
The "problem" for germany should be how to maintain their ground forces. The "problem" for Russia should be how to survive basically alone for 2 years and the "problem" for the Western Allies should be how to build enough 'support' units to invade and stay on the continent without allowing the Axis to sit untouched for years and build up their forces. 
I think the game can do this but the naval system really needs to be overhauled. It is by far the weakest link. 
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doomtrader
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RE: production, PP, balance

Post by doomtrader »

I'm planning to balance purchase cost.
If you have any propositions go ahead.
 
 
There are some events adding land units for majors, so we can think about navy.
James Ward
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RE: production, PP, balance

Post by James Ward »

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

I'm planning to balance purchase cost.
If you have any propositions go ahead.


There are some events adding land units for majors, so we can think about navy.

I think infantry and armour replacement costs should be based more on tech level than unit type. Many units salvaged equipment that was 'lost' in battle, particularly armor, training was still required. Air units are a different story, losses were rarely salvaged.
As I said before as a new unit goes up in tech level the cost should go up by factors of the previous level to reflect better training and equipment.
James Ward
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RE: production, PP, balance

Post by James Ward »

I would also suggest that the upgrading cost for an existing unit be based on the type. I would think that armour and air required new equipment in addition to more training so the cost to upgrade, as a percentage, would be more than for infantry, who's upgrade cost would seem to be more about improved training and tactics as opposed to lots of new equipment. 
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doomtrader
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RE: production, PP, balance

Post by doomtrader »

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

The Naval game is not a total loss, it can be fixed, we will see what the patch brings, but in addition upping the tech level of the kriegsmarine.

Even some simple events could help.  Something like

Event: Complete the Bismark
When: August 1940
Text:  The keel of the mighty Bismark was lain down in 1936, but she was not commissioned until August 1940.  This ships was one of the most advanced and formidable warships of WWII but came at a cost to the German War Effort.

Possibility 1:  Complete the Bismark!
-100 PP
+1 BB
+10 DP
Possibility 2:  We need more Panzers!
+50 PP

Event: Build the Tirpitz
When: February 1941
Text:  The keel of the Bismark's Sister ship the Tirpitz was lain down in 1936, but she was not commissioned until February 1941.  Another formidible Capital ship its construction would come at a cost to other heavy building projects

Possibility 1:  Build the Tirpitz!
-150 PP
+1 BB
+5 DP
Possibility 2:  We cannot afford this ship!

SOme things like this could sure help.

I think those events are cool enough and found over 50 ships worth to get into the game.
Mike Parker
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RE: production, PP, balance

Post by Mike Parker »

Well cool, that will help alleviate some of the things preventing folks building new ships.
James Ward
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RE: production, PP, balance

Post by James Ward »

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

Well cool, that will help alleviate some of the things preventing folks building new ships.

Now if I could only figure out how they worked! [:)]
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