air/naval in upcoming patch - inquiring minds want to know

[gwgardner]

Mr. Doomtrader, et al, please outline in some detail for us what you guys have in mind for the air/naval interaction in the upcoming patch.

It may sound presumptuous (sp?) to ask that, but I do so in the interests of making the player base happy with the patch, rather than seeing another round of carping when the patch is released.

I think it would be a shame if you guys introduced some form of air/naval, and it turns out not to address the critical aspects of historical air power over the seas.

[Michael the Pole]

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Mr. Doomtrader, et al, please outline in some detail for us what you guys have in mind for the air/naval interaction in the upcoming patch.

It may sound presumptuous (sp?) to ask that, but I do so in the interests of making the player base happy with the patch, rather than seeing another round of carping when the patch is released.

I think it would be a shame if you guys introduced some form of air/naval, and it turns out not to address the critical aspects of historical air power over the seas.

Amen! Amen! Amen![&o]

[doomtrader]

As you already know we are operating with large formations of aircrafts like div and armies. Also there will be some differences in ideao of naval units. Instead of single CV, BB, CA and subs we decided to implement carrier, battle patrol, sub and transport groups representing:
1BB + 5DD
1CV + 5DD
1CA + 3DD
10TP
4SS
and named after flagship.Also I decided we can simulate strength of every ship and now it is:
TP=0,1pts
SS=0,5pts
DD=1pts
CA=2pts
BB=3pts
CV=5pts
Of course this system is not perfect and units can loose only full strength points, which means that ten TP will be destroyed at once. Why we have decided for such solution, now, we can change unasigned DD to create separate patrol groups.
Going back to topic. Naval/air interaction will be very simple. Pick air unit, hit naval attack. Then a check is made are there any coastal hexes within range (value moddable), an attack can be made in all sea zones that coastal hexes are connected with.
Then a check is made (it use naval and air tech level of attacker and naval tech level and amount of CV of defenders to check chance of success).

[gwgardner]

Thank you, Doomtrader.

How is reconnaissance handled?  Example:  I mean, how does Germany, for instance, know what naval targets are available in the North Sea?

[doomtrader]

You would have no info about enemy fleet in the sea zone, so the attack will be rather 'blind'

[doomtrader]

Guys, I'm not a Mister here and doomtrader doesn't need capital letter [:)]

[gwgardner]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

You would have no info about enemy fleet in the sea zone, so the attack will be rather 'blind'

You mean the air unit cannot target a specific naval unit?

Will there be probabilities for attacking transports first, etc?

[doomtrader]

You can't target specific type of units and there won't be any probability.

[gwgardner]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

You can't target specific type of units and there won't be any probability.

Eh ... not good. If no specific targetting will be allowed, at the very least there should be a weighting done, a greater probability, that air units would go after transports BEFORE going after escorts. Or carriers before destroyers, etc.

[Mike Parker]

What would be better is to have an air unit assigned to the Sea.  Rather like how you assign a bombing mission.  Then during the naval combat portion whenever it determines if there is a naval battle, there is  chance the air will be included in the battle.  Likely a smallish chance since you would beed to be fairly close to the coast to have land based AC help alot.  This way the land based air is acting like a naval unit in a way.
 
Also Air units and bombers both should have the option to Naval Bombard a port.  Mmmmm also I hate to be a pest, but Naval Units in port should likely be visible (it would be more realistic to have a chance of visibility).
 
So if you want good Naval/Air interaction you really need these things I think.
 
Some way to have land based air be part of the Naval phase.
 
Some way to have land based air conduct bombardment of fleets in port.
 
I would also suggest the following.
 
Land based air on Naval assignment would increase the chance of your fleet sighting enemy units at sea.
Naval Units in port be visible to all sides.  Loose lips sink ships works great as a slogan, and helped I suppose but it didn't stop the enemy getting reports of if a ship was in port or not.  (at least not any port that was anywhere near a civilian populace.)
 
I realize some of these might be well outside the scope of changes that could be worked in at this date.. but this is sort of where you should be going in my opinion if you can.
 

[balto]

Without reworking the entire naval thing, is there a chance that could you scrap all that number stuff above and maybe spend some time on how Convoys can be significantly damaged?  Naval power in this game is not a deal breaker in this land based game.., the transfer of PP via Convoy is an absolute Deal Breaker in who wins and who loses in this land based game.  So how about if you choose to work on naval stuff.., focus on a model that allows the  Axis naval units to inflict SERIOUS damage on convoys if they choose to invest some PPs and also causes the Allies to seriously think about convoy escort.  And in the Med, heck, both sides could benefit from crippling convoys.  Once again, PP in Atlantic and Murmansk and supply in the MED are deal breakers in this game.., but the game as is.., you cannot do any noticeable damage compared to what you invest. 
 
 

[doomtrader]

We can increase raiders efficency

[balto]

Hi Doomtrader.  I do not want to monopolize this naval thread, but if you are to tweak the raiders., realize that a sub cost 60PP.  So before you get fancy with math and history and all that stuff.., realize that subs get zapped whenever they are detected and they rarely intercept.., so unless the purchaser of a sub has a chance of recovering that 60PP in the near future.., no one will buy them.  And before they research Naval techs.., same thing, that is expensive.  So as you can see, to make make naval investment worthwhile., they would have to have increased interception capabilities and DEVASTATING convoy attack strength.., for example, one strike and an entire 50PP could be wiped out.  So the whole naval thing is going to be tough for you.  I wish you luck, but I think the ability to integrate naval forces into this game as a significant factor in winning -- that could possibly be undoable.  It is a land based game.  So for your first patch, just mechanically restrict the convoys so we do not need all those house rules and focus on the land stuff and production.  I am prepared to get a lot of flack for this post.