WITP AE AAR Feb 09 Cathartes-JRCAR (Jap)

[jrcar]

On AI in gerneral it is much better than stock, but still not the same as playing a live human.

A LOT of effort has gone into the AI. I know how hard it is from my day job and the guys (Andy in particular) have done a fantastic job... but don't expect anything to dynamic, but it will keep you occupied for a couple of games.

Cheers

Rob

[jrcar]

ORIGINAL: cantona2

What is clear is that players cannot build one massive stack on land or on sea and go on a rampage

It is harder, BUT it will still happen. Air is toned down a lot, and I think overall is a fantastic improvement from stock. Land has had the least changes to it (well apart from a completely new ORBAT, new icons and art, new movement modes, changes to how hex control is managed, improved AI... so not much really [:D])

Naval is also much harder to maintain large fleets at sea indefinately, and harder still to rearm, load and unload etc.

The Naval and air side really slow the game to far more historical levels.

Land though you can still have mega stacks, that rampage around ( in particular in China), but the hex control now means it is easier to escape them, and easier to threaten their flanks and rear.

[Barb]

Just a question: It seems that Japs players are quite ignoring one good Landing beach - Lamon Bay. With fighters based at Aparri you should have it covered by CAP umbrella. It was also the main landing site of 16th Division (I think one regiment was sent to Legaspi, to advance northward to manila, the other two landed at Lamon Bay). What are Lamon Bay parameters as base?

Another think I dont like is that Japs in the first turn are using their "mach-speed" task forces and allied "surprise" to avoid allied air response. This is quite unrealistic. Japs dindt know they will "massacre" allied planes at Clark Field or in the Borneo, Mindanao and other places. So all those landings were scheduled to happen later on, when the air supperiority is achieved. It could be more historicaly realistic if allied "surprise" off (and CAP settings could be reduced maybe?). For example what if fog was not over the Formosa and Japs will get over Clark field while US CAP was there (and not just landed as happened).
But I think this could be more a PBEM House rule than AE thing.

[cantona2]

It is harder, BUT it will still happen. Air is toned down a lot, and I think overall is a fantastic improvement from stock. Land has had the least changes to it (well apart from a completely new ORBAT, new icons and art, new movement modes, changes to how hex control is managed, improved AI... so not much really )

Naval is also much harder to maintain large fleets at sea indefinately, and harder still to rearm, load and unload etc.

The Naval and air side really slow the game to far more historical levels.

Land though you can still have mega stacks, that rampage around ( in particular in China), but the hex control now means it is easier to escape them, and easier to threaten their flanks and rear.

The revised AS and the new NS will certainly curtail this though. Im very glad to hear the hex control tweaks as it is my major land comabt peeve in WitP.

[jrcar]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Just a question: It seems that Japs players are quite ignoring one good Landing beach - Lamon Bay. With fighters based at Aparri you should have it covered by CAP umbrella. It was also the main landing site of 16th Division (I think one regiment was sent to Legaspi, to advance northward to manila, the other two landed at Lamon Bay). What are Lamon Bay parameters as base?

See image below. Mauban is port 1(1) afld 0(7)
Atimonan is port 2(1) afld 0(7)

If I recall correctly IRL a battalion did land there, a couple of days after the main landings nnth and sth.

Another think I dont like is that Japs in the first turn are using their "mach-speed" task forces and allied "surprise" to avoid allied air response. This is quite unrealistic. Japs dindt know they will "massacre" allied planes at Clark Field or in the Borneo, Mindanao and other places. So all those landings were scheduled to happen later on, when the air supperiority is achieved. It could be more historicaly realistic if allied "surprise" off (and CAP settings could be reduced maybe?). For example what if fog was not over the Formosa and Japs will get over Clark field while US CAP was there (and not just landed as happened).
But I think this could be more a PBEM House rule than AE thing.

There are only a few TF (2-3?) that have the mach speed bonus. This is now coded in the editor, and NOT available to every TF. So KB, the Khota Bahru and I think one other have it, the rest don't.

This is another change that slows the pace to around historical.

[jrcar]

Well time for bed, after our 5th day in a row of over 40 degree C (100+F) it is finally cool enough to go to sleep.

Cathrates should be on in a few hours, as should other memebrs of the team, so keep asking questions

Its work for me in the morning, but I have access at times during the day.

It is 2-3 days away until we actually start, I wanted to spend time exploring the map, it is just so awesome!

Looking forward to seeing the new art in the next build, always something new!

Cheers

Rob

[fabertong]

Thanks so much Rob.......your hot weather sounds good to us here in the snowy UK.........

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Just a question: It seems that Japs players are quite ignoring one good Landing beach - Lamon Bay. With fighters based at Aparri you should have it covered by CAP umbrella. It was also the main landing site of 16th Division (I think one regiment was sent to Legaspi, to advance northward to manila, the other two landed at Lamon Bay). What are Lamon Bay parameters as base?

Another think I dont like is that Japs in the first turn are using their "mach-speed" task forces and allied "surprise" to avoid allied air response. This is quite unrealistic. Japs dindt know they will "massacre" allied planes at Clark Field or in the Borneo, Mindanao and other places. So all those landings were scheduled to happen later on, when the air supperiority is achieved. It could be more historicaly realistic if allied "surprise" off (and CAP settings could be reduced maybe?). For example what if fog was not over the Formosa and Japs will get over Clark field while US CAP was there (and not just landed as happened).
But I think this could be more a PBEM House rule than AE thing.

Two questions:
1. Baguio Pass?

2. Would it be hard to mod the stock scenario to create an alternative world that allows the Japanese player to play a limited war scenario. In standard WiTP terms, this simply consists of replacing Yamamoto with Yonai and moving TFs 3501 and 3502 to Kure, Truk, or Palau, with first turn destination a position within air attack range of Manila and Clark Field. The scenario changes are:

History: After months of steadily worsening relations and the recent American Government decision to confiscate the assets of people of Japanese ancestry, the Japanese Government has taken the step of declaring war on the United States and the British Commonwealth. During this period, an internal debate took place in the Japanese military that resulted in the resignation of Admiral Yamamoto as commander of the Combined Fleet and his replacement with Admiral Yonai. Despite this change of leadership, the Navy remains committed to a surprise attack at the outbreak of war.

Victory Conditions: If the Allied player has a sea line of communications (a continuous path with air superiority) between North America and a fleet base in the Philippines or Taiwan and from there to a forward base in the Ryukyus, Korea, or Japan by 31 January 1944, he wins a decisive victory. If this requirement is met by 30 April 1944, it is a regular Allied victory. By 31 July 1944, a marginal victory, by 31 October 1944, a draw, by 31 January 1945, a Japanese marginal victory, by 30 April 1945, a Japanese regular victory, and by 31 July 1945 or later, a decisive Japanese victory.

If at any time, the Japanese player attacks forces present in a hex in Alaska, the Hawaiian Islands (excluding Midway), or continental North America, the Allied player has an additional two years (just so) to meet his requirements for a victory. Note that raiding the American sea lines of communication is allowed.

Armistices can be offered by either side at any time. The side offering the armistice must abide by it once accepted. The other side can withdraw from the agreement with 90 days notice. If Japan takes Calcutta, Delhi, Bombay, or Karachi, the Indian Congress Party forces the British in India to offer an armistice on the current lines of contact. If accepted, this means no offensive operations by either side in India, Burma, or Ceylon. If the Chinese capital is taken or Japan accepts this forced armistice with the British, the Chinese offer a similar armistice.

These changes (other than the starting location and commander changes) do not need to be enforced by the game engine--they're basically mandated house rules.

[Barb]

jrcar: according to Wiki and post war reports on Japanese Operations in the Southwest Pacific Area - Reports of General MacArthur Volume II (scroll little upwards on this link):

Wiki: Early on the morning of December 12, the Japanese landed 2,500 men of the 16th Division at Legazpi on southern Luzon, 150 miles (240 km) from the nearest American and Philippine forces.
Reports: Kimura Detachment (16th Inf Gp Hq, 33rd Inf Regt (-1st Bn), 1 btry/22nd Arty Regt, Kure 1st Special Landing Force (-1 Co), 1st Airfield Construction Units (Navy)

Wiki: The main attack began early on the morning of December 22 as 43,110 men of the 48th Division and one regiment of the 16th Division, supported by artillery and approximately 90 tanks, landed at three points along the east coast of Lingayen Gulf.
Reports: From 16th Division (in 2nd and 3rd landings): Uejima Detachment (1st Bn/ 9th Inf Regt & elms), 2nd Bn/9th Inf Regt (Army Reserve), 3rd Bn/9th Inf Regt (Left flank detachment)

Wiki: The next day(24th dec.) 7,000 men of the 16th Division hit the beaches at three locations along the shore of Lamon Bay in southern Luzon where they found General Parker's forces dispersed, and without artillery protecting the eastern coast, unable to offer serious resistance.
Reports: 16th Div HQ, 16th Div (-9th, 33rd Inf Regts & other elms) in 24 transports escorted by 1 cruiser, 6DDs, from Amami-Oshima

Legaspi: So you have 2bns, 1 art bty and rgt HQ + maybe company/platoon sized detachments of engineers, scouts, transports.
Lingayen: 1 Rgt + detachments
Lamon: Rest: 1st bn/33rd rgt, 20th rgt, 22nd Field Artillery Regiment (-1 bty) , 16th Construction Regiment (-det?), 16th Transport Regiment (-det?), Divisional HQ.

Herwin: Baguio falled on december 27th to 3rd bn /9th rgt on dec 27th.

[Andy Mac]

Herwin I imagine its the same but would prefer not to comment on mods at this stage we are focussed on getting the core scenarios working with the absolute minimum of hardcoding
 
Barb not sure what the question is ?

[Barb]

It is not much of a question, more like finding. And maybe a suggestion on a strategy.
If you want question: "How is 16th Division deployed at the begining?" [:D]

As to mach speed bonus reduction: GREAT![&o]

Edit: I would like to have more practice in English. I hate when I write something that is hardly readable [:)]

[helldiver]

Greetings.

Man, this all looks great, especially the map expansion! Seems as if the new stacking limits, especially for atolls, will be one of the big things to "unlearn" from stock. Jrcar said to ask questions. O.k. Could any dev./testers summarize the nature of the stacking restrictions and penalties and, maybe, illustrate with base screenshots. I think I saw this covered somewhere weeks ago, but can't find it.

Regards,
Helldiver

[modrow]

Rob,

just want to join the chorus of "Thanks !"[&o] Great AAR so far.

I think the AAR writing is just as important for the success of AE as the bug-hunting of the beta testers. These are the threads which keep us interested (and drooling).

Thanks again

Hartwig

[jmscho]

I concur with Hartwig about the drooling . . . my keyboard is soaking wet!!

Very pleased to see this and the other two new AE AAR threads. It gives us punters a better view of all the hard work you guys have been putting in. And dare I say it starts to suggest we may be getting there soon .. another week . . month . . . . . . quarter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . year?

Personally, I don't care about the artwork. To me wargames are about shuffling large amounts of data. The WitPDecoder looks as if it will be very useful. Will we be able to cut and paste data from it?

Keep up the good work

[IndyShark]

Wow, this is really great. It's even better than I hoped. Can you look at bases you don't own to see how large you can make the airfields and ports?
 
Can we have a few pictures of Burma and the British AOR? How about Australia as well?

[Andy Mac]

OK Stacking is complicated
 
The limits are Atoll 6,000
Small Island 30,000
Large Island 60,000
Everything else unlimited
 
The main area you need to watch is Atolls - Atolls are no longer defendable long terms against a determined attacker without air and sea superiority unless you can predict the target and temporarily reinforce or prepare an ambush (rather than a Base Force and NGU if a Marine Regt or two walks into an IJA Regt behind lvl 6 forts it will get painfull for the Marines)
 
They are now limited to fort level 6 to reflect the lack of possible defensive depth and you can only put so many men there.
 
The limits apply to both sides so both may bring 6,000 without penalty
 
If you overstack the penalties are increased disruption, fatigue and an extreme level of supply wastage on attack its easier to temp overstack but you had better win....unloading ships are now a lot more vulnerable to surface TF's and air attack if you try an unsupported invasion it will get very very painfull
 
This makes overstacking on defence tough for the long term but an attacker must take an atoll quickly if he overstacks and that can be tough.
 
I think the balance leads to interesting strategic choices and the Gilberts and even the Marshalls are tough to attack and defend and isolated atolls without total carrier support are extremely vulnerable
 
Wake, Midway and Marcus are tough for both sides to take and hold
 
 

[witpqs]

On the mouse-over of Tokyo, what is "attached to general defense"?

[Andy Mac]

Thats the resticted command that commands the Home Islands

[Grotius]

Thanks for this AAR! A couple quick questions of my own:

1. I see "Detection Level" is now on the mouseover; I think I saw Tokyo 2/2 and Nandi 1/1. What do these numbers mean?

2. I also noticed a reference to Hitachi (early). I gather there is more than one type of Hitachi engine now?

[Barb]

1. DL/MDL maybe?