Question for the TOE experts and Modelers

[rickier65]

I'm looking at a few sources for the OOB.

Nafziger, George Panzers and Artillery in WWII
Pipes, Jason
Neihorster papers at niehorster.orbat.com
AchtungPanzer webpage

Also some details from factsheet posted by spellir above.

Though I did end up 'guessing' on distribution some. i.e. Nafziger shows TOE of Med and 3 light co, Neihorster shows Med and 2 light companies. Nafzigers inventory for 6/21 doesn't really allow enough tanks for Med and 3 light co. So I've put a complement of Med and 3 light (4 companies) but I've left the fourth company empty.

I also don't have the details fo what type Pz IV was deployed. If you have info or source I could use for type of PzIV's that would help.

Not sure where I'm going with this, I don't even have the I Bn/6th Pz Rgt half finished and I'm already up over 900 pts. So right now it's an exercise with no discernible purpose, but I' think I'll continue anyway.

Thanks.
Rick

[rickier65]

I may have to rething this. finished up the I Bn/6th Pz Rgt. It weighs in at around 2800 pts.

Loaded int a show map. and sytem almost choked. Unable to get a screen shot (either with prt Scrn or with F11) so no shots.

Still have some ideas though.

Rick

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Rick

I'm looking at a few sources for the OOB.

Nafziger, George Panzers and Artillery in WWII
Pipes, Jason
Neihorster papers at niehorster.orbat.com
AchtungPanzer webpage

Also some details from factsheet posted by spellir above.

Though I did end up 'guessing' on distribution some. i.e. Nafziger shows TOE of Med and 3 light co, Neihorster shows Med and 2 light companies. Nafzigers inventory for 6/21 doesn't really allow enough tanks for Med and 3 light co. So I've put a complement of Med and 3 light (4 companies) but I've left the fourth company empty.

I also don't have the details fo what type Pz IV was deployed. If you have info or source I could use for type of PzIV's that would help.

Not sure where I'm going with this, I don't even have the I Bn/6th Pz Rgt half finished and I'm already up over 900 pts. So right now it's an exercise with no discernible purpose, but I' think I'll continue anyway.

Thanks.
Rick

The Germans didn't differentiate between model types only gun types. They only showed short or long barreled guns in their inventories generally.

Good Hunting.

MR

[rickier65]

Thanks MR.

I've completed the I Bn/ 6th Pz Rgt. I'm putting them into a Battle plan so they can be used in Random battles. Still sorting ohw how the RBG chooses among the units listed. I thought it starte at the top of the list and went down until pts were used up, but thats appear to be what's happening.

I initially put this Bn into the Preset, but I found that it would only allow me to designate the root of the unit name, and did it's own numbers for platoons, and I ended up getting 5th and 6th platoons in the 1st Co./I BN. (which they didn't have). So I switched to put them into the Battle plan.

I've also found I can put some probablities. I'm going to try a few things with Battle plans/presets to get confortable with how they work.

It would be nice if the Scenario editor would allow you to choose a Battle plan as a unit selection list. That way you could build up and inventory of Historical divisional OOB's with units already named and built out.

Thanks for info!
Rick

[rickier65]

I've finished putting the entire 6th Panzer Regiment into a BattlePlan (though only for TO&E at 6/22/1941).

I've set the prob of getting a BefWg at A=0;D=.05 ( so not likely one will even show up in selection list on defence and no chance on attack).

I started with prob for all other units at A=.5;D=.33. Ran a few tests - this gives quite a long list of platoons in selection list after genning a Random Battle.

I then went in and incrementally reduced the prob. with my last runs being with A=.16;D=.16. Selection list much smaller now.

I'm going to continue building the 3rd Panzer Division OOB, and may do a mini-campaign when I have it working the way I want.

Thanks!
Rick

[spellir74]

ORIGINAL: Rick

I've finished putting the entire 6th Panzer Regiment into a BattlePlan (though only for TO&E at 6/22/1941).

I've set the prob of getting a BefWg at A=0;D=.05 ( so not likely one will even show up in selection list on defence and no chance on attack).

I started with prob for all other units at A=.5;D=.33. Ran a few tests - this gives quite a long list of platoons in selection list after genning a Random Battle.

I then went in and incrementally reduced the prob. with my last runs being with A=.16;D=.16. Selection list much smaller now.

I'm going to continue building the 3rd Panzer Division OOB, and may do a mini-campaign when I have it working the way I want.

Thanks!
Rick

This is good. It is an idea to be expanded upon in the future of games. ...To have all of the OOB and TO&Es (changing with dates) listed and available for deployment.

[rickier65]

Thanks Spellir,

I've started in on the 3rd Brigade, 3rd Schutzen Rgt. Nafziger is a little vague on the make-up, so I'm trying to decipher some of Neihorsters diagrams. Slow going. But once I get one grouping done, it's good for others.

I'm substituting Sdkf 222 AC for the Motorcycle units. And it appears that the TOE's show Engr platoons in some sources, and Pioneer platoons in others, but both showing LMG weapons, so I'm using Fallshirmjager units in game OOB as they seem to have the correct number of LMG's.

I won't be putting in the non-combat support units(tank maintenance platoons, etc) , and I havent decided about some other other assets at Division level, though I will be putting some Div Artillery in.

I'm also leaving out the signals platoons on the Infantry side at all levels.

Its taking a bit more work than I had expected. And I'm pretty sure I'll have to make a campaign now just to justify the time in putting it together.

When I get the Division done, I'll probably post the batttle file with some explanation of just what it is.

Thanks
Rick

[spellir74]

ORIGINAL: Rick

Thanks Spellir,

I've started in on the 3rd Brigade, 3rd Schutzen Rgt. Nafziger is a little vague on the make-up, so I'm trying to decipher some of Neihorsters diagrams. Slow going. But once I get one grouping done, it's good for others.

I'm substituting Sdkf 222 AC for the Motorcycle units. And it appears that the TOE's show Engr platoons in some sources, and Pioneer platoons in others, but both showing LMG weapons, so I'm using Fallshirmjager units in game OOB as they seem to have the correct number of LMG's.

I won't be putting in the non-combat support units(tank maintenance platoons, etc) , and I havent decided about some other other assets at Division level, though I will be putting some Div Artillery in.

I'm also leaving out the signals platoons on the Infantry side at all levels.

Its taking a bit more work than I had expected. And I'm pretty sure I'll have to make a campaign now just to justify the time in putting it together.

When I get the Division done, I'll probably post the batttle file with some explanation of just what it is.

Thanks
Rick

I was going to say earlier that Niehorster is the authority. But it is hard to find the actual pages and the NATO(?) symbols are a subject to be learned in themselves: they are not for casual observance.

I have bmp legends of that Niehorster NATO stuff from when I was doing it. (This way you don't have to go back and forth.) Let me go fish...

Okay. zip is attached. Bmps of the symbols which you can open and refer to while looking at a given Neihorster OOB browzer page; sample of my OOB notepads; graphcs (from Mraah's PzGren Orig) of various kompanie types from Niehorster listed write ups.

Some of this isn't done and therefore it is Not definitive.

(Note I was investigating 3rd PzD as my main focus too LOL.)

Note about Art Rgt and PzC-- Four gun battery is too big for PzC in my opinion.

[spellir74]

[And some of this might be helpful...]


=================
TO & E (table of org and equip)

Here's how Pz Divs looked at the start of Fall Blau in 1942

3 battalions with 2 light companies and 1 medium company each: 3, 9, 13, 14, 16, 22 (7/42 to 9/42), 23 and 24 --Divs.
2 battalions with 3 light companies and 1 medium company each: 5, 6, 7 and 10 --Divs.
2 battalions with 2 light companies and 1 medium company each: 8, 12 and 22 (10/42 to 1/43) --Divs.
1 battalion with 4 light companies and 1 medium company : 19 --Divs.
1 battalion with 3 light companies and 1 medium company : 4 and 20 --Divs.
1 battalion with 2 light companies and 1 medium company : 1, 2, 17, 18 and 27 --Divs. [23 Pz Divs total there of 30ish PzDs]

('light cpn' = PIIIs)

````````````
The German practice up to 1944 was to field 3 companies in a PZ bn, typically numbers 1,2 and 4 for the 1st bn and 5,6 and 8 for the 2dbn. If a PZ rgt had 3 bns the 3d bn fielded co's 9,10 and 12. The 3d and 7th companies of each bn remained at the "depot" in Germany and served as a training / replacement facility. This was the practice from the very start of the war.

In late 1943 the TO&E called for PZ bns to have all 4 companies in the field. In reality this was seldom achieved due to combat losses.

During the first half of 1944 the PZ divs on the Eastern front sent the crews of usually the 2d bn back to Germany for training on the new Panther tanks, leaving only the PZ IV bn with the div. In fact only a few of the PZ divs in Russia had their Panther bns by the time of D-Day.

The PZ divs in France by D-Day, although many were still refitting, probably came closest to achieving the prescribed TO&E of 4 co's per bn and 2 bns per rgt.


======
Force amounts:

OKH ('Heer') =
205 Inf Div
30 PzD

SS (de facto under Heer)=
38 Inf Div
7 PzD [of 30 entire PzD] 1st "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler" | 2nd "Das Reich" | 3rd "Totenkopf" | 5th "Wiking" | 9th "Hohenstaufen" (mrket garden)| 10th "Frundsberg" | 12th "Hitlerjugend"

France et al = 38 D.
Norway = 12 D. (some to Finland for Barb)

Barbarossa = 154 Div into three Groups; ca3 Armee in each Group. [??-] 5 Inf Div per Korp (occ one is Inf D.mech).

(625,000horses 1.13mil men)
Four 'Panzer Grppen'[later Pz Armee]: two in Group North (3 & 4Pz Grpn); 1 ea in others (LeibStand-AH in IPz Grpn, Group South).

DATES:

Barbarossa
-late june 41.

*north did not link up with Finns
*center almost to moscow
*south achieved core objectives

Guderian 2nd swings back to Kiev. Then...
-Oct retrys moscow. Russian counter attack; then offensive...
-wint 41/42 'Hedge Hog' defense, Hitler demands. (Totenkoph heroic at demyansk (North); Ger 216ID's-xRg at Sukhinien)

-spring 42
Russian attack '2nd battle of karkov' ["Karkov"] (knew OKH staging there [for 'Fredericus']); Ger Counter= uses'Fredericus': takes 239,000 prisoners, inflicted ca 1,250 tank losses.

Fredericus was to close salient for summer offense; achieved that and more (because of Sov attacking at Karkov).

-summer 6/28/42 'case blau'
68 Div; 1.4mill men; 1,495 AFVs; Fourth Air Fleet with 1,550 (of the 2,950 ost front luftwaffe)

==================
==================
Wehrmacht Heer
154 divisions deployed against Soviet Union in 1941 (including reserves): 100 infantry, 19 panzer, 11 motorised, 9 security, 5 Waffen-SS, 4 "light", 4 mountain (Gebirgs), 1 SS police, and 1 cavalry.

[rickier65]

Thanks, this info pretty much matches what I've used for the 3rd Div-6th Pz Rgt. 1 m, and 2 light companies. However I numbered the compainies 1,2,3 in I Bn, 5,6,7 in II and 9,10,11 in III Bn. I think I'll probably leave them numbered that way.

I've sorted through Neihorsters diagrams and think I've got a handle on equivalent PCK units.

Thanks for the info!

EDIT - The BMP's are a help. I can zoom them to look closer.

Rick

[spellir74]

Re: Neihorster NATO symbol legend in BMP--

Print them too, if you want. ...Something about looking down from the monitor is still sometimes easier than going from task bar button to button. [Someday monitors will be big enough --ie wall sized-- to have everything opened on your 'desktop'; then writing and research will be caught up to how it was before techno made it 'easier'.]

------------
Disclaimer...

My OOB and TOE notes were made as the first things I studied last may-june. Consequently they are the weakest. Definitive was hard to find; a lot of half assed sources (I stopped before I found neihorster); and my note taking skills were not as good/concerned-with-super-accurate then.

I was looking for one generic though detailed set up, in eng and ger (specifically what the troops called the things) --couldn't really find it.

My more recent vehicle research has been better.

I'd trust your OOB sources more. Ie: awaiting your corrections [;)]

[rickier65]

I've just about got a handle on it. Ive lined out botht eh 3 Schutzen Rgt and the 394th Schutzen Rgt. Last thing I've added are the transport elements.

I arbitrarily decided to assign these at the Rgt, Bn and Company level. And I've also used arbitrary numbers - I'm sure they would have had additional transport - but at the size of the maps we are on, it didn't make sense to include that much transport).

I also ended up breaking down Bn MG company into 4 platoons 2 with 4 Hvy MG each and 2 with 3 81 mm Mortars each. Not sure of actual break down (numbers total numbers match booth Nafziger and Neihorster but not organization within company). I almost (and might still) split the MG platoons into sections - so they could be 'purchased' in game in smaller units.

I'm putting all of this into a spreadsheet, in case I decide to do another division, so I'm trying to insert comments where appropropriate.

I"ll be glad to share a copy with you when finished if you like.

Rick

[rickier65]

Just an update. I've finished putting in the 3rd Schutzen Rgt. and the 304th Schutzen Rgt. I ended up abbreviating units using the PzG for Panzer Grenadiers and I found no abreviation for Schutzen (and they would become PzG in anohter year anyway).

I don't believe I'll put in the 3rd Motorcycle Bn. or the 39th Signals Bn. The MC Bn would require not only motorcycles (which someone did start creating), but also side cars, and side cars with both MG and Mortars.

I still need to put in at least some of the elements of the 75th Artillery Rgt. (I'll probably just put in the II Bn). EDIT : ended up putting in II and III Bn, which is all Nafziger said they deployed, the I Bn having been transferred to form part of the 5th Light.

That will leave the 543rd PanzerJager Bn, 1st Recon Bn, and the 39th Pioneer Bn.

I've done just a few tests of random genrator, using low probabilities for the units. I ended up with force selection pool of units from 3rd PzG Rgt, 304th PzG Rgt as well as the 6th Pnzer Rgt, which is what I wanted. However, I notices that the selection pool did scatter my choices all over the unit Organziations, ie, didn't really have a single complete company.

I may end up increasing the probability now to address that.

In any event getting closer.

Rick

[rickier65]

Well, it occurs to me after running some test Random builds that Perhaps I should parcel out my truck transports to the platoon level after all. I still won't put in as much as they historically had, but I think I will put in smaller units (my initial deployment had 1 trck plt per company with 9 trucks). I'm revising that to 4 truck uits per Co. with 3 trucks each.

Rick

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Rick

Just an update. I've finished putting in the 3rd Schutzen Rgt. and the 304th Schutzen Rgt. I ended up abbreviating units using the PzG for Panzer Grenadiers and I found no abreviation for Schutzen (and they would become PzG in anohter year anyway).

I don't believe I'll put in the 3rd Motorcycle Bn. or the 39th Signals Bn. The MC Bn would require not only motorcycles (which someone did start creating), but also side cars, and side cars with both MG and Mortars.


Rick

In all the research I've ever done I've never seen, or heard of, a motorcycle sidecar with a mortar mounted. Do you have pictures of this beast? Or was it simply a mortar crew carried in a sidecar?

Good Hunting.

MR

[rickier65]

I recall a pic of the sidecar with MG, not of any with Mortars. If I run into any, I'll let you know.

I'm not sure how they would mount a mortar in a side car in any event, so I assume they used it for transport? So it need to be able to have a 'mount point'.

Rick

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: spellir74

[And some of this might be helpful...]


=================
TO & E (table of org and equip)

Here's how Pz Divs looked at the start of Fall Blau in 1942

3 battalions with 2 light companies and 1 medium company each: 3, 9, 13, 14, 16, 22 (7/42 to 9/42), 23 and 24 --Divs.
2 battalions with 3 light companies and 1 medium company each: 5, 6, 7 and 10 --Divs.
2 battalions with 2 light companies and 1 medium company each: 8, 12 and 22 (10/42 to 1/43) --Divs.
1 battalion with 4 light companies and 1 medium company : 19 --Divs.
1 battalion with 3 light companies and 1 medium company : 4 and 20 --Divs.
1 battalion with 2 light companies and 1 medium company : 1, 2, 17, 18 and 27 --Divs. [23 Pz Divs total there of 30ish PzDs]

('light cpn' = PIIIs)

````````````
The German practice up to 1944 was to field 3 companies in a PZ bn, typically numbers 1,2 and 4 for the 1st bn and 5,6 and 8 for the 2dbn. If a PZ rgt had 3 bns the 3d bn fielded co's 9,10 and 12. The 3d and 7th companies of each bn remained at the "depot" in Germany and served as a training / replacement facility. This was the practice from the very start of the war.

In late 1943 the TO&E called for PZ bns to have all 4 companies in the field. In reality this was seldom achieved due to combat losses.

During the first half of 1944 the PZ divs on the Eastern front sent the crews of usually the 2d bn back to Germany for training on the new Panther tanks, leaving only the PZ IV bn with the div. In fact only a few of the PZ divs in Russia had their Panther bns by the time of D-Day.

The PZ divs in France by D-Day, although many were still refitting, probably came closest to achieving the prescribed TO&E of 4 co's per bn and 2 bns per rgt.


======
Force amounts:

OKH ('Heer') =
205 Inf Div
30 PzD

SS (de facto under Heer)=
38 Inf Div
7 PzD [of 30 entire PzD] 1st "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler" | 2nd "Das Reich" | 3rd "Totenkopf" | 5th "Wiking" | 9th "Hohenstaufen" (mrket garden)| 10th "Frundsberg" | 12th "Hitlerjugend"

France et al = 38 D.
Norway = 12 D. (some to Finland for Barb)

Barbarossa = 154 Div into three Groups; ca3 Armee in each Group. [??-] 5 Inf Div per Korp (occ one is Inf D.mech).

(625,000horses 1.13mil men)
Four 'Panzer Grppen'[later Pz Armee]: two in Group North (3 & 4Pz Grpn); 1 ea in others (LeibStand-AH in IPz Grpn, Group South).

DATES:

Barbarossa
-late june 41.

*north did not link up with Finns
*center almost to moscow
*south achieved core objectives

Guderian 2nd swings back to Kiev. Then...
-Oct retrys moscow. Russian counter attack; then offensive...
-wint 41/42 'Hedge Hog' defense, Hitler demands. (Totenkoph heroic at demyansk (North); Ger 216ID's-xRg at Sukhinien)

-spring 42
Russian attack '2nd battle of karkov' ["Karkov"] (knew OKH staging there [for 'Fredericus']); Ger Counter= uses'Fredericus': takes 239,000 prisoners, inflicted ca 1,250 tank losses.

Fredericus was to close salient for summer offense; achieved that and more (because of Sov attacking at Karkov).

-summer 6/28/42 'case blau'
68 Div; 1.4mill men; 1,495 AFVs; Fourth Air Fleet with 1,550 (of the 2,950 ost front luftwaffe)

==================
==================
Wehrmacht Heer
154 divisions deployed against Soviet Union in 1941 (including reserves): 100 infantry, 19 panzer, 11 motorised, 9 security, 5 Waffen-SS, 4 "light", 4 mountain (Gebirgs), 1 SS police, and 1 cavalry.

Tired tonight.....Over the weekend I'll have a look and see if those PD's with PzKw35(t) and PzKw38(t) have a different organization. That could be the differences in the organizations. Those armed with German tanks and those armed with Czech (t) tanks.

Good Hunting.

MR