The Problem of Luzon

[el cid again]

Somewhat similar to real life - only worse - and also somewhat similar to our first game - only worse -
I am hung up on Luzon. Although I have committed more than historical force, unlike vs most players,
I have not been able to breach the supply generating heart of central Luzon.

When I described this situation in our first game, you said it was because I had explained that Baguio is the keystone of Luzon. Malaria free in RHS, mountainous in RHS, a significant resourse/supply center and a useful airfield, the absence of this location from stock and CHS prevented one to appreciate the brilliance of Gen Yamashita - who based his defense on it and the Ilagan Valley behind it. This area has the largest copper mine in Asia (until just now, when a bigger one opened on New Guinea) and significant gold and other resource production, as well as food and timber (i.e. supplies). This is one of those places where "old ladies with broomsticks" might pose a significant defense - because of the steep mountains - and it is only easy to take if one abandons or weakly defends it - as the Americans did in 1941/2 - but which Yamashita did not in 1944/5 - creating a situation in which it was impractical to force his surrender. [Yamashita demanded written orders from the Emperor - surrender was illegal in Japanese law - and got them]

But I am not only hung up at Baguio - I am hung up at Lucena - in spite of three divisions - and at Linguyan Gulf - neither of which is good defensive terrain nor historically a point of strong resistance in either campaign (the US defense or the Japanese defense). This seems to be because the Phiippine Army and US Army troops are sufficient in numbers to defend a couple of hexes in strength - when supplied by Manila, Olongapo/Bataan and Angelus/Clark hexes - and in your case also Maubon Bay is in the food chain.

This ability to hold up a combined arms force is wholly independent of the problem of reducing the supply sink at Manila - I have not been able to invest Manila and the sink is doing its job - eating excess supplies from the resource centers in the area.

The real bugger is that you have air transferred in B-17s - and these are cutting up both shipping transiting the South China Sea - and shipping bringing in more troops. Airfield attacks vs hexes with AA units cost more planes than I can replace - and so it is necessary to go in and shut them down on the ground. That cannot be done by amphib landing - ships sailing into a well supplied Olongapo/Bataan hex must face the massive CD installations there. So one must fight one's way in from Linguyan, Lucena or Maubon Bay - assuming Baguio cannot be forced because it was defended in strength.

I am engaged in attempting to come up with a plan to do this.

[Bogo Mil]

The replacement rate of the B-17 is not really good. Constant bombing of the airfields is the way to go, imho. First day you close the field, next you destroy the planes on the ground.

Use the IJA level bombers (many, 150 is a minimum, 250 is better), and attack at low altitude. The first strikes will suffer extreme losses, but the AAA will be disabled fast. Medium or high altitude is more expensive in the long run. There are many AAA guns on Luzon, but it's a finite number, soon they will be gone and your losses go down. Fighting the B-17 bases in Burma/India will be much tougher - the Brits have really huge amounts of AAA there.

Another option is to use all these army bombers on ground attack against Linguyan and force a breaktrough there. It's the same thing: Attack in large number at low altitude. You can throw in some Nate units as well - you have many of these obsolete planes to burn. If the AAA units protect the B-17 at Clark and Manila, you won't have that many losses there. After 2-4 days of heavy airstrikes you should try a ground attack. Boost your LCUs with a paradrop if possible - this can make a huge difference.

In your AAR vs. Scot I don't see your bombers at all, where are they? Do you use them in large numbers for ASW or what? Ten Sallys here, twelve Helens there - that's not the way to go. You really need them to support your ground forces and to close enemy airfields. This is the largest pro for the RHS mod, imho. Produce army bombers in large numbers, so you'll have to replace a lot of losses.


Until you defeated the B-17 threat, you can protect your shipping a bit by sending large TFs with battleships in them. These make good bomb magnets and their AAA may shoot down some of the planes.

[khyberbill]

a significant resourse/supply center and a useful airfield,

I have recently been to Baguio and would like to point out that the airfield today is small. Short runway and frequent fog/rain. Also, it is somewhat down the hill from Baguio (one can detect a noticeable rise in temp as one descends-or perhaps that was the taxi driver scaring me?) and thus the steep mountain protection may not be as much a factor.

[el cid again]

IF the Japanese were to use 150-250 bombers in one place - they are not available for the kind of warfare Japan needs to wage early in PTO. Everything is a trade off - but concentrating bombers on anti-bomber roles means they are not available to hunt ships - which is what Japanese naval bombers are really efficient at. If you do this early - those lost ships are not available for years of war: if you don't, they are in use for potentially the whole war.

If the Japanese use low altitude - they take excessive casualties. In RHS there are literally thousands of machine guns - .30s work to 2000 feet - .50s to 4000 feet. 25 mm, 37 mm and 40 mm AA work to altitudes as high as 12 or 13 000 feet.
Coming in below these altitudes will cost you in terms of machines and pilots - something Japan cannot sustain.

It is possible to knock the bombers down by taking down the airfield itself - but IF the Allied defense is competent - the airfield will come back on Luzon. [A more radical move I like as Allies is NOT to let Clark come back - the enemy wastes effort trying to keep it down - and when captured - he must repair it. I combine that with using smaller bombers that don't need the big airfield to be effective from smaller fields - and shift which one or two are in use - to limit the ability to take them out on the ground.]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

a significant resourse/supply center and a useful airfield,

I have recently been to Baguio and would like to point out that the airfield today is small. Short runway and frequent fog/rain. Also, it is somewhat down the hill from Baguio (one can detect a noticeable rise in temp as one descends-or perhaps that was the taxi driver scaring me?) and thus the steep mountain protection may not be as much a factor.

You are living in a different era. During WWII there was only one airfield in all of ETO that could operate an Me-264 when loaded - and it wasn't even in Germany. The B-36 and B-52 - and finally jumbo jets - changed that - so our standards of "large" has changed. Even so - Baguio is a medium airfield - not like Clark - which became a truly gigantic base post war. But it is entirely suitable for fighters and bombers of less than the largest sort - and these can be very effective in defending Luzon. I would not recommend using B-17s out of there - not only due to airfield limitations - but also because bigger bombers eat more supplies - and Luzon should manage supplies - to extend the time it is a thorn in the enemy SLOC.

[khyberbill]

You are living in a different era. During WWII there was only one airfield in all of ETO that could operate an Me-264 when loaded - and it wasn't even in Germany. The B-36 and B-52 - and finally jumbo jets - changed that - so our standards of "large" has changed. Even so - Baguio is a medium airfield - not like Clark - which became a truly gigantic base post war. But it is entirely suitable for fighters and bombers of less than the largest sort - and these can be very effective in defending Luzon. I would not recommend using B-17s out of there - not only due to airfield limitations - but also because bigger bombers eat more supplies - and Luzon should manage supplies - to extend the time it is a thorn in the enemy SLOC.

How did the ETO make it to Baguio, or a B-52? And the Me-264? Only one was made and it wasn't considered a viable airplane by the Germans so one wouldn't need a runway for it but a museum.

As for flying eras, I lived in Pakistan in the 50's and flew in DC-3's out of airports that used crushed rock as the runway (Skardu-http://www.caravanpilots.com/Skardu.JPG- and Gilgit airports); I was in the Peshawar area when the U2 took off and was shot down over Russia. That era wasnt very far removed from WW2. I was on one of the first Pan Am flights in a 707 across the Atlantic (Heathrow - Idlewild), and during the same journey, DC-7 Idlewild - Lisbon, on a DC-4 (Lisbon to Madrid) and a Super Connie (Madrid to Rome), so I have lived in many eras for airplanes. At one time or another since 1953 I have flown in most airplanes made for commercial aviation since the DC-3 until 2006; in more countries (at least 50 in Europe/Asia/Africa), states (48 of 50-somehow I missed Hawaii and Montana) and airports than I can count. I know small, medium and large airports, and have known them since I was 5 years old.

And no matter what era one is in, Baguio is a short airfield (http://www.ourairports.com/airports/RPU ... rport=RPUB). Mountains are around part of the runway, the mountains that Baguio is situated on. Yes, fighters and small bombers could use it but I doubt for many sorties a day and Clark airfield is not so far away and would be able to really pound it before breakfast, after breakfast, before lunch, have a nap and then drop a few bombs on it before martinis at the O Club. And the available real estate is not very large so the amount of aircraft there would be small. You couldnt bomb it after 3 in the afternoon because of the fog/cloud cover. I dont know the length of the runway in the 1940's but I doubt if a B17 could use the airport back then. And the fog? Lots of fog in the afternoon. All the time, plus the daily rainstorm.

If one is holed up in Baguio, you can eat off the land, but there isn't much fuel up there. How much fuel did Japan have stored there? Lambonog (local distilled coconut wine from southern Luzon) is ok to drink but it wont fire up an aircraft engine. The Japanese would not be able to re-supply Baguio, and the Americans wouldnt want it after they got Clark back.

Finally, El Cid, I have been to Baguio airport many times, my butt knows all 10 seats in the departure hall as well as the chairs in the lounge. It is my favorite city in the Philippines (my wife is from Manila) Unfortunately, I wont be at the airport anymore because it is now closed and probably wont reopen-too much fog is one of the reasons it was closed as a commercial airport. I always took the morning flights because the afternoon flights were always canceled due to fog. Now it will be a 6 hour Victory bus ride from Manila.

[ChickenOfTheSea]

I don't think you guys are on the same page. Baguio is a level 2 airfield in RHS. The B17's that El Cid is facing are coming from Manila. When isolated from a major supply source Baguio can not support heavy bombers even with the building up allowed in WITP (remember that, in game, aviation fuel is abstracted as supplies, not fuel). However, it is very difficult to take if well-defended by LCU's. Any mountain hex with some resources acts like this in WITP.

Since a 60 mile hex is 2700 square miles, any mountain hex contains non-mountainous terrain (except perhaps in the Himalayas). Arguing local variation in the terrain is pointless at this level of abstraction.

[Bogo Mil]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
IF the Japanese were to use 150-250 bombers in one place - they are not available for the kind of warfare Japan needs to wage early in PTO. Everything is a trade off - but concentrating bombers on anti-bomber roles means they are not available to hunt ships - which is what Japanese naval bombers are really efficient at.

I'm talking about IJA bombers - Lily, Sally, Helen, Mary, Sonia, ... These are not efficient against ships, but their myriad of small bombs is very devastating against soft targets like LCUs and airfields.

The IJN bombers (Betty, Nell, Kate, ...) should be used against ships, that's true. They are strong in this role, they suck against land targets anyway, and their pilots are harder to replace.

If the Japanese use low altitude - they take excessive casualties. In RHS there are literally thousands of machine guns - .30s work to 2000 feet - .50s to 4000 feet. 25 mm, 37 mm and 40 mm AA work to altitudes as high as 12 or 13 000 feet.

I like an altitude of 3000 feet against most ground targets. This is too high for the small MGs. Against concentrations of American units with many .50s you may have to go at 5000, that's true. But don't go higher to avoid the 20mm cannons etc - your losses will decrease somewhat, but the effect of the bombing will decrease much more.

Coming in below these altitudes will cost you in terms of machines and pilots - something Japan cannot sustain.

Japan must move forward. They have to pay the price. Yes, it hurts if you lose 200 bombers per month. But if your LCUs are tied up in static warfare for months in 1942, it hurts much more. You must force victories early. If you need the big hammer to do so - bring the big hammer. That's it. "Safety first" is for Allies.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

You are living in a different era. During WWII there was only one airfield in all of ETO that could operate an Me-264 when loaded - and it wasn't even in Germany. The B-36 and B-52 - and finally jumbo jets - changed that - so our standards of "large" has changed. Even so - Baguio is a medium airfield - not like Clark - which became a truly gigantic base post war. But it is entirely suitable for fighters and bombers of less than the largest sort - and these can be very effective in defending Luzon. I would not recommend using B-17s out of there - not only due to airfield limitations - but also because bigger bombers eat more supplies - and Luzon should manage supplies - to extend the time it is a thorn in the enemy SLOC.

How did the ETO make it to Baguio, or a B-52? And the Me-264? Only one was made and it wasn't considered a viable airplane by the Germans so one wouldn't need a runway for it but a museum.

As for flying eras, I lived in Pakistan in the 50's and flew in DC-3's out of airports that used crushed rock as the runway (Skardu-http://www.caravanpilots.com/Skardu.JPG- and Gilgit airports); I was in the Peshawar area when the U2 took off and was shot down over Russia. That era wasnt very far removed from WW2. I was on one of the first Pan Am flights in a 707 across the Atlantic (Heathrow - Idlewild), and during the same journey, DC-7 Idlewild - Lisbon, on a DC-4 (Lisbon to Madrid) and a Super Connie (Madrid to Rome), so I have lived in many eras for airplanes. At one time or another since 1953 I have flown in most airplanes made for commercial aviation since the DC-3 until 2006; in more countries (at least 50 in Europe/Asia/Africa), states (48 of 50-somehow I missed Hawaii and Montana) and airports than I can count. I know small, medium and large airports, and have known them since I was 5 years old.

And no matter what era one is in, Baguio is a short airfield (http://www.ourairports.com/airports/RPU ... rport=RPUB). Mountains are around part of the runway, the mountains that Baguio is situated on. Yes, fighters and small bombers could use it but I doubt for many sorties a day and Clark airfield is not so far away and would be able to really pound it before breakfast, after breakfast, before lunch, have a nap and then drop a few bombs on it before martinis at the O Club. And the available real estate is not very large so the amount of aircraft there would be small. You couldnt bomb it after 3 in the afternoon because of the fog/cloud cover. I dont know the length of the runway in the 1940's but I doubt if a B17 could use the airport back then. And the fog? Lots of fog in the afternoon. All the time, plus the daily rainstorm.

If one is holed up in Baguio, you can eat off the land, but there isn't much fuel up there. How much fuel did Japan have stored there? Lambonog (local distilled coconut wine from southern Luzon) is ok to drink but it wont fire up an aircraft engine. The Japanese would not be able to re-supply Baguio, and the Americans wouldnt want it after they got Clark back.

Finally, El Cid, I have been to Baguio airport many times, my butt knows all 10 seats in the departure hall as well as the chairs in the lounge. It is my favorite city in the Philippines (my wife is from Manila) Unfortunately, I wont be at the airport anymore because it is now closed and probably wont reopen-too much fog is one of the reasons it was closed as a commercial airport. I always took the morning flights because the afternoon flights were always canceled due to fog. Now it will be a 6 hour Victory bus ride from Manila.

My point is that large is a relative term, and you probably think in terms of major airfields of this age - which were regarded as impractical in WWII. The reason for talking about Me-264s is the book Luftwaffe Over Amerika - which has extensive information about Garman ideas which didn't pan out - but which we (and also the Soviets) successfully adapted post war: primary among them super large runways to make operations of large aircraft practical (without the need to air refuel after takeoff or exotic rockets or jet assisted or towed takeoffs).

Baguio is indeed not a long runway - although it could be somewhat longer than it is - as is usually the case - it is not a place that justifies a large airfield build rating - and it does not have one in RHS. Nevertheless - any airfield is better than no airfield - the situation in stock and CHS - and it is more than a minimal Level 1 airfield - you could load weapons on small aircraft there even as was (so it gets a 2 rating to start with - and will never be more than a 5 under WITP conventions). Manila and Olongapo start with better - 3 ratings. Clark starts better still - a 4 that can go to a 7 if you build it up. Only Dole Pineapple Plantation and Clark were big enough for B-17D operations when the war began - and RHS reflects that in both cases - allowing no other to be that large. We also (jointly with CHS) reduced airfield ratings in Borneo to prevent easy torpedo bombing use right after capture by JNAF.

Baguio is indeed plagued with horrible smog - and it is ruining the most wonderful city in the Philippines historically speaking. It wasn't that way until the 1990s - and it really is a function of overpopulation (a million people now live in the Mountains - probably more - a million in 1991) - and it is being denuded of lots of things because of it. In game terms - fuel is not a problem: supply points = supply points = supply points. I prefer (and indeed recommended during WITP design) using a different system - with fuel, ammo and general supplies - which would make this a more complicated problem. But they went for a definition of fuel excluding AVGAS - folding it into general supplies - and players need not trouble themselves with details of what kind of supply is needed. I went to Joe for a standard - and he said "in the end a ton is a ton is a ton - supplies and resources must be in tons" - so that is what we use in RHS (the first WITP variant to actually attempt to get logistics per location correct). It does not matter WHAT is produced - if it is a supply (vice related to oil or fuel or resources) - it shows up (or a fraction of it does - we have some production for non represented parts of the economy discounted). IRL one would have had to ship ammunition (also supply points in WITP) and fuel up there to make a defense feasible: if one did - the War Plan Orange concept might have worked - the Philippines might still have had US and Philippine soldiers in the field when the invasion came (in the sense of the original field units). It was no more feasible to run us out of the mountains than it was for us to run Yamashita out. He left behind special elements - graduates of the Nakano School - awaiting a call that never came to resume the war. The last survivor was ordered out. [In the press you read he "surrendered" - but not so - he was ordered out - because Japan decided it no longer needed the contingency it had left in place.] In this area you still have a problem however - called the NPA (New People's Army) - even with US help the Philippines never has been able to root them out.

Anyway - the defense of Mountain Province and La Union Province is far better than hanging out in malarial Bataan - and the mountains channel the game toward the flatlands between Manila and Linguyan Gulf (runnigh through Angelus/Clark). This is a better modeling of the situation - and it makes defense far more feasible. The Japanese pretty much have to come at you via Linguyan - or up from the south if they can get past Lucena. They can land in Maubon Bay as history - but no RR connects it to Manila or anywhere else.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

ORIGINAL: el cid again
IF the Japanese were to use 150-250 bombers in one place - they are not available for the kind of warfare Japan needs to wage early in PTO. Everything is a trade off - but concentrating bombers on anti-bomber roles means they are not available to hunt ships - which is what Japanese naval bombers are really efficient at.

I'm talking about IJA bombers - Lily, Sally, Helen, Mary, Sonia, ... These are not efficient against ships, but their myriad of small bombs is very devastating against soft targets like LCUs and airfields.

The IJN bombers (Betty, Nell, Kate, ...) should be used against ships, that's true. They are strong in this role, they suck against land targets anyway, and their pilots are harder to replace.

If the Japanese use low altitude - they take excessive casualties. In RHS there are literally thousands of machine guns - .30s work to 2000 feet - .50s to 4000 feet. 25 mm, 37 mm and 40 mm AA work to altitudes as high as 12 or 13 000 feet.

I like an altitude of 3000 feet against most ground targets. This is too high for the small MGs. Against concentrations of American units with many .50s you may have to go at 5000, that's true. But don't go higher to avoid the 20mm cannons etc - your losses will decrease somewhat, but the effect of the bombing will decrease much more.

Coming in below these altitudes will cost you in terms of machines and pilots - something Japan cannot sustain.

Japan must move forward. They have to pay the price. Yes, it hurts if you lose 200 bombers per month. But if your LCUs are tied up in static warfare for months in 1942, it hurts much more. You must force victories early. If you need the big hammer to do so - bring the big hammer. That's it. "Safety first" is for Allies.

It is true that Army bombers are somewhat easier to get - and so are Army pilots. In some ways this is more true in RHS - where the loadouts are more differentiated by service - and where the Army likes the 50 kg bomb and the 15 kg bomb. Actually - more small bombs is more effective vs land units. This doesn't show up in stock/CHS because the original design says 3 x 50 kg = 10 x 15 kg - but in RHS - we use a different way to calculate effect more related to how bombs works - and effect is a function of square root of weight - so more bombs give you more effect (but less armor penetration).

I prefer to come in above the medium AAA - as Japan. Your attitude is better AGAINST Japan - which has little real medium AAA - and not that many MG. In RHS there are vast numbers of .30s and .50s - and so I am somewhat philosophical - let players try different things and pay the price.

[Bogo Mil]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
It is true that Army bombers are somewhat easier to get - and so are Army pilots. In some ways this is more true in RHS - where the loadouts are more differentiated by service - and where the Army likes the 50 kg bomb and the 15 kg bomb. Actually - more small bombs is more effective vs land units. This doesn't show up in stock/CHS because the original design says 3 x 50 kg = 10 x 15 kg

Exactly! Besides the map, this is the most significant improvement of RHS, imho. In stock and CHS, the best use for the army bombers is to set them to naval search en masse - quite gamey and ahistoric, but everything else just isn't worth the costs. In RHS, these planes are really powerful and valuable. It's a waste not to use them to bomb the enemy.

Now I look into your AAR against Scot. As an example I use the 01/21/42: There are sorties of 43 Mary, 33 Sally, 19 Lily and 8 Sonia - that's all. Only 100 sorties of army bombers all over the map, and this was a very busy day for your standards! Two days later there are only 5 Sonia sorties, nothing else. Where the heck is your airforce? You have hundreds of bombers, why don't they bomb? Bring 50% of your IJA bomber force to the PI and Formosa, and the threat is gone within one or two weeks.

I prefer to come in above the medium AAA - as Japan. Your attitude is better AGAINST Japan - which has little real medium AAA - and not that many MG. In RHS there are vast numbers of .30s and .50s - and so I am somewhat philosophical - let players try different things and pay the price.

There is one reason why I like to go low for Japan: Op losses. Even if you managed to avoid all AAA, you'd still take significant op losses. Add the heavy AAA which you can't avoid, and you pay a medium price for a small effect. I prefer to pay a big price for a big effect.

But even if you don't agree here: Bombing at high altitude is still much better than not bombing at all.