Erik, I respectfully disagree

[hermanhum]

One can only hope that the changes and invitation fare better than the Mantis.Harpoon5 idea that absolutely no one cared about or used.

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[Erik Rutins]

Evaamo2 et. al.,

Thanks for your input. I definitely appreciate the constructive criticism. Russell's post (quoted below) speaks for me as well in this case and I agree with everything he said.

I do want to emphasize that did freeze (or attempt to freeze) the features in 3.9.x and that entire series of releases after 3.9.0 has been focused on bug-fixes.

The problems you discuss in general, we agree with and have been working to solve, with great success in some areas and limited success in others. We and AGSI are committed to continuing the present course, which we feel is the right one (and is not the same course we were on before 3.9.x).

Regards,

- Erik

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

Howdy,

First, I want to continue this discussion. I ask everyone to take the best from each other's post and always add to the discussion. Otherwise, I'll start editing content. Not a threat, just a predictable line of action.

The fictional part of Herman's post was number of releases made. After the initial 3.7, there was 3.8, 3.9, 3.9.1, 3.9.2, and 3.9.3 with 3.9.4 coming out as soon as I do the QA work. The other part of the post I'll respectfully disagree with. 3.9.x has been feature frozen (point of contention use of that phrase may be) and focused on fixing bugs.

Beyond that, I'll say that you are, on the whole, correct. AGSI had taken actions provoking already hostile players. Further, our QA process was definitely a shame. Our feature implementations were poorly planned and should have been more transparent. I am responsible for it. I am going to move forward though and will not dwell on past mistakes. Just the lessons from them.

We have tried to engage old-timers in the past and will again. Finding the right mode of communication that will handle every ego is not going to be an easy one. Still, with a more stable game I think productive discussion can be had.

Some of the changes we are putting into effect:


-Future model changes will be done all at once and will be optional.
-We've hired QA wonks to test and develop automated tests for us.
-Beta testing will be open (now) and eventually, totally transparent. We're cleaning up our issue tracker so it is an accurate picture. We will not however delete any issues.


I'm also looking to get the best behaviors out of 3.6 and use them in the latest 3.9.4 release. Optionally. If I feel a 3.9.5 (3.9.x is the feature freeze, not 3.8) is necessary, then I'll make it so while maintaining 3.10.x as a development branch for new features.

I appreciate your time in posting and, of course, I'd appreciate your testing but I understand real life intercedes.

As always, thanks for your feedback.

Regards,

[FreekS]

[quote]ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
We and AGSI are committed to continuing the present course, which we feel is the right one (and is not the same course we were on before 3.9.x).

Regards,

- Erik


Erik,

And so are the players, scen and DB designers contributing to this thread. Everyone wants the game to improve and I believe everyone is recognising positives steps are being taken (but they want more [;)] which is great.

Freek

[Kegel]

That Progressive Insurance chick is hot.  She needs my bone.

[rsharp@advancedgamin]

<car braking noise>

What? haha

[kipallen]

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

quote:ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin We attempted to create some sort of republic with C3. By AGSI personally selecting only those members it wanted for membership, this was in no way a 'republic' and much more akin to the Vichy/Quisling governments of WWII and the Afghan puppets under the Soviets.

We picked the board that would elect new members. Had to start somehwere but I do understand why everyone thought AGSI had their hands in the elections. We really didn't but that's a moot point at this stage.

I've got the idea of doing the same thing but starting with those who have been elected Harpooner of the year with the current AGSI employees removed. Then they can elect new members from there. It wouldn't be a perfect solution but it is an interesting idea.

Thanks,

Herman, I have to back up Rusty on this point. I was one of the C3 "electors." Off the top of my head, I can think of two or three very talented Harpooners I voted against based on their attitudes -- "They didn't play well with others," is the expression that comes to mind. Perhaps I was wrong, but I simply couldn't see how their contributions would outweigh the harm their bickering, name-calling and disruption would have caused.

The point I'm making is that AGSI tried to include the community.

I agree that AGSI must involve the community more and I know of no one at AGSI who disagrees. The problem is one of implementation, not ill will.

Perhaps the idea of starting with Harpooners of the Year might work.

You, Rusty, Erik, Freeks and I all want the same thing -- a smooth, satisfying, bug-free Harpoon. We need to remember that ultimately we're all on the same side.

[Anonymous]

Hello,

I think we should look and move forward instead of focusing on the last years and AGSIs mistakes. Russel has openly informed about lessons learnt and he has outlined how AGSI plans to improve its dev process and especially quality assurance. This is a new quality of customer relationship which creates hopes.

It is correct behaviour and, starting at this point, life should go on in order to improve the sim.

We all will see if AGSI really works in a different way. Russel gives his ear to the players and it would be better to talk with him instead of permanently reminding him of past failures.

The latest betas openly distributed here showed progress. So, let´s wait for official RCs or the final 3.9.4.

Regards,
Ralf

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: koelbach

I think we should look and move forward instead of focusing on the last years and AGSIs mistakes. Russel has openly informed about lessons learnt and he has outlined how AGSI plans to improve its dev process and especially quality assurance. This is a new quality of customer relationship which creates hopes.

AGSI's organizational plan is totally and wholly irrelevant. It doesn't matter how they structure or re-structure themselves, what mechanisms they want to use for QA, input, discussion, etc. The only thing that matters is the quality of the end product. How they try to get there is their own business. All anyone can do is make suggestions on the easiest way. Corporate re-organizations are a means to an end and not the solution itself. The last AGSI re-organization was a pretty futile exercise as it changed nothing in the product quality.

[YankeeAirRat]

Herman,
&nbsp;
Over the better part of my judgement I am diving into this. Between you and the folks at HHQ tirades about how the game is messed up or sniping between each other over petty BS on this board (and others), I am absolutely amazed at how this game has sold any units at all. All this hate would scare a&nbsp;possible player away and more then likely did. You are right that AGSI and Matrix has screwed things up when this game was being sold initially. You are right that AGSI and Matrix should have fixed the initial features that were promised when 360 Pacific was selling H2 way back in 1992, that is seventeen years ago. From there they should have slowly added features.&nbsp;However, both Russell and Erik basically offered a public mea culp that they screwed up and were trying to fix things internally on how the game was being updated and fixed. I don't know all the ins and outs with what was happening with the computer Harpoon community because I turned my back on it about six years ago during one of yours and HHQ's initial dust up, I returned to the roots playing it via pen and paper. I have only bought both H3ANW and HCE was to keep support going to AGSI that they will be able to produce a computer game that does it best to replicate the fun that I have had over a weekend drinking beers playing with friends the wonderful rules that Larry Bond, Chris Carlson, and the rest of their crew designed. The only times I have played both the products being offered by Matrix&nbsp;has been completely stock DB's and stock scenario's when I can't get a paper game going on with my friends.
What isn't (and hasn't been) helpful is biting the hand that is feeding us the versions that we currently have. Remember that except for a few die hards in the community both of these games could of been left to the dustbin of computer gaming history.

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

What isn't (and hasn't been) helpful is biting the hand that is feeding us the versions that we currently have. Remember that except for a few die hards in the community both of these games could of been left to the dustbin of computer gaming history.

I understand the opinion and everyone's got a right to one. Just remember that you wouldn't have been able to even express that much if the only discussion forum for ANW problems was closed and exclusive to only a few members.

What I disagree with is the perspective expressed in this final paragraph. It is backwards, IMO. The users/customers are the hand(s) that feed AGSI and not the way around. Keeping a game alive that is barely breathing due to extensive bugs is not doing anyone a favour. Either it can fix itself or, it deserves to belong in the dustbin of history.

[Anonymous]

Hello Russell,

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

[...]

I've got the idea of doing the same thing but starting with those who have been elected Harpooner of the year with the current AGSI employees removed. Then they can elect new members from there. It wouldn't be a perfect solution but it is an interesting idea.

Thanks,

I still don´t understand why there is any need for a new C3. The concept has failed and building a new C3 around some people creates another hidden group. It would create new misunderstandings and process inefficiency.

I´m all for open beta testing and features discussion. I don´t think there is any need for placing some Harpooners above others, and I don´t need any hierarchic elements in my free time.

Thus I would not join any hidden group.

Regards,
Ralf (Pooner 2007)

[hermanhum]

Can I cast my vote for Harpooner of the Year 2009, yet?&nbsp;

[erichswafford]

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

What isn't (and hasn't been) helpful is biting the hand that is feeding us the versions that we currently have. Remember that except for a few die hards in the community both of these games could of been left to the dustbin of computer gaming history.

I understand the opinion and everyone's got a right to one. Just remember that you wouldn't have been able to even express that much if the only discussion forum for ANW problems was closed and exclusive to only a few members.

What I disagree with is the perspective expressed in this final paragraph. It is backwards, IMO. The users/customers are the hand(s) that feed AGSI and not the way around. Keeping a game alive that is barely breathing due to extensive bugs is not doing anyone a favour. Either it can fix itself or, it deserves to belong in the dustbin of history.

I respectfully disagree. The game, even in its present state, is still pretty damn awesome. There is nothing like it out there, and I am immensely appreciative that any developer is still interested in this sort of thing.

Of course, I'm nuts. I bought 3 copies of KA-50 Black Shark because I think it's worth $150 and I wanted to support the developers. People, if you haven't noticed, the rest of the gaming world is playing mindless FPS's or pretending to be Elves online.

Anyway, I hope ANW continues to improve and thrive.

[Anonymous]

ORIGINAL: kondor999

[...]

I respectfully disagree. The game, even in its present state, is still pretty damn awesome. There is nothing like it out there, and I am immensely appreciative that any developer is still interested in this sort of thing.

Of course, I'm nuts. I bought 3 copies of KA-50 Black Shark because I think it's worth $150 and I wanted to support the developers. People, if you haven't noticed, the rest of the gaming world is playing mindless FPS's or pretending to be Elves online.

Anyway, I hope ANW continues to improve and thrive.

For those who have no older version of Harpoon, e.g. 3.6.x, there exists only ANW. The current 3.9.4 beta RC13 IMO is the best ANW game engine so far. The AI has regained a lot of its former strength and aggressiveness. As an explanation for the new players: We "old" ones don´t love 3.6 because it is 3.6. The reason is that this game engine had a far stronger AI and was without major bugs or weird behaviours. Sorry, if we created the impression of being addicted to 3.6.


ANW, starting at 3.7, introduced literally tons of bugs and weird behaviours. Not spoken of the breaking of many original scens and the original database.


Russel has done a tremendous job in the last months. ANW now definitely has improved. It has taken years, but now things look better. Maybe Herman´next bug list will indicate that the sheer number of bugs/weird behaviour still is high. But the overall playability has greatly improved.

The question for gamers IMO isn´t any longer, if ANW runs and they risk a catastrophe buying it. They don´t. ANW runs and is currently well playable. You really can enjoy it. Those who come back from the old H2/H3 times and stick to this game do not make a mistake in buying it IMO. They will have fun.

The central question now is if this old GUI concept etc. still is ok and the best there is - and if it has a future. IMO there is a strong oppenent evolving in the form of GCB2. The GIU, the extensive use of the right mouse button etc. create a "modern feeling". Many things are still missing and writing my first scen is a pain. And it will be only the "light version" of a scen compared to my Harpoon ones.

But it evolves and uses current GUI standard.

So the ANW discussion should no longer focus backwards but become future oriented. Can Harpoon leave the 90ties?

Regards,
Ralf

[morphin]

Hi

I agree. GCB2 is getting stronger and stronger. I think it is time for TNH (The next harpoon). Or is this project dead?

Andy