Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

[Orm]

I would suggest that the terrain be changed to swamp in the marked hexes.

I have tried to find a good map on the internet but must admit that I have failed to do so. I scanned in a good map but unfortunately they are to big to post here. If you want I can mail them to you Patrice.

-Orm

[Incy]

I like the change. The current map is in no way realistic with respect to how extremely difficult and slow it would be to move a land army down the lenght of Sweden against even notional opposition.

btw, the hexes would be very significant if the map would ever be used in any type of cold war scenario that involved USSR attacking NATO. An overland USSR offensive down the scandinavian peninsula would not have been as easy as the current map indicates.

Military strategy in Norway and Sweden at the time assumed that Finland would not oppose (or would easily be defeated) by USSR, and the norwegian and swedish main infantry forces were mostly deployed along roughly the same line across the scandinavian peninsula, in this area. (Norway did not and does not have significant forces east of the long fjord just east of Tromsø, which runs inland just west of the swedish-finnish border)

[peskpesk]

I like the change too, and the map supports the change. Also this is a modern map, before there were less roads and the wetlands/marsh was bigger

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I would like the Swedish railway net to look something like this.

During 3 years of the war some 2 million german troops were transported through Sweden. Most were wounded or soldiers on leave with the exeption of a division with weapons and ammunitions. This used up 10% of the Swedish railcapacity at its peak. The trains and railway was guarded by 15000 Swedish troops. The trains did not pass Stockholm.

-Orm

2 millions german troops through Sweden! for what purpose? On leave, what were they doing in northern sweden, chasing caribous?

[X(]

[peskpesk]

"German troops through Sweden

After Denmark and Norway were invaded on April 9, 1940, Sweden and the other remaining Baltic Sea countries became enclosed by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, then on friendly terms with each other as formalized in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. The lengthy fighting in Norway resulted in intensified German demands for indirect support from Sweden, demands that Swedish diplomats were able to fend off by reminding the Germans of the Swedes' feeling of closeness to their Norwegian brethren. With the conclusion of hostilities in Norway this argument became untenable, forcing the Cabinet to give in to German pressure and allow continuous (unarmed) troop transports, via Swedish railroads, between Germany and Norway.

The extent of these transports was kept secret, although spreading rumors soon forced prime minister Per Albin Hansson to admit their existence. Officially the trains transported wounded soldiers and soldiers on leave (permittent-tåg), which would still have been in violation of Sweden's proclaimed neutrality.

In all, close to 100,000 railroad cars had transported two million German soldiers trough Sweden by the time the transit agreement was disbanded on 5 August 1943" source Wikipedia

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

"German troops through Sweden

After Denmark and Norway were invaded on April 9, 1940, Sweden and the other remaining Baltic Sea countries became enclosed by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, then on friendly terms with each other as formalized in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. The lengthy fighting in Norway resulted in intensified German demands for indirect support from Sweden, demands that Swedish diplomats were able to fend off by reminding the Germans of the Swedes' feeling of closeness to their Norwegian brethren. With the conclusion of hostilities in Norway this argument became untenable, forcing the Cabinet to give in to German pressure and allow continuous (unarmed) troop transports, via Swedish railroads, between Germany and Norway.

The extent of these transports was kept secret, although spreading rumors soon forced prime minister Per Albin Hansson to admit their existence. Officially the trains transported wounded soldiers and soldiers on leave (permittent-tåg), which would still have been in violation of Sweden's proclaimed neutrality.

In all, close to 100,000 railroad cars had transported two million German soldiers trough Sweden by the time the transit agreement was disbanded on 5 August 1943" source Wikipedia

This is an interesting part of WW2 and unknown to me. So if I understand, Germany was sending troops to garrison northern Norway against and eventual allied invasion following what happened in Narvik in 1940 I suppose?

Or even part of this must have been used to carry german troops for the fighting against the british in Narvik I guess, and to garrison against another potential invasion by the allies.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: micheljq

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

"German troops through Sweden

After Denmark and Norway were invaded on April 9, 1940, Sweden and the other remaining Baltic Sea countries became enclosed by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, then on friendly terms with each other as formalized in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. The lengthy fighting in Norway resulted in intensified German demands for indirect support from Sweden, demands that Swedish diplomats were able to fend off by reminding the Germans of the Swedes' feeling of closeness to their Norwegian brethren. With the conclusion of hostilities in Norway this argument became untenable, forcing the Cabinet to give in to German pressure and allow continuous (unarmed) troop transports, via Swedish railroads, between Germany and Norway.

The extent of these transports was kept secret, although spreading rumors soon forced prime minister Per Albin Hansson to admit their existence. Officially the trains transported wounded soldiers and soldiers on leave (permittent-tåg), which would still have been in violation of Sweden's proclaimed neutrality.

In all, close to 100,000 railroad cars had transported two million German soldiers trough Sweden by the time the transit agreement was disbanded on 5 August 1943" source Wikipedia

This is an interesting part of WW2 and unknown to me. So if I understand, Germany was sending troops to garrison northern Norway against and eventual allied invasion following what happened in Narvik in 1940 I suppose?

Or even part of this must have been used to carry german troops for the fighting against the british in Narvik I guess, and to garrison against another potential invasion by the allies.

Without any information whatsoever,[:D] I am willing to bet that the vast majority of the German troops in Norway were in the populous southern/western areas rather than the north. German operations conducted from Norway against Allied convoys would most likely be the cause of casualties. Then there is the rather mundane cycling of troops home on leave and redistribution of which combat units were where. By going through Sweden (and Denmark) those transits would be greatly simplified.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

At most there was more than 350.000 German soldiers in Norway. A considerable force was fighting from Finnmark (Kirkenes port etc.) against the Russians near Murmansk. When the Russians advanced through Finland and westwards in Finnmark the Germans retreated using the scorched earth policy. Lots of towns in northern Norway were burnt to the ground. So the Germans were particularly unpopular in northern Norway for a long time after the war.

Germany had garrisons spread all over Norway partly to prevent an Allied invasion, but also as support of their air, naval and sub bases along the Norwegian coast and protect the shipment of iron ore from the port of Narvik.

I saw a program on Swedish TV about the Germans bullying the Swedish government into accepting that armed German combat troops were sent from Germany via Sweden to fight in Finland. It created a political crisis in the Swedish government and they had to make it a secret. The official story was that German troops on leave were transported to/from their holidays, but some of the troops were sent fully armed in order to fight. The political crisis was called the "Midsummer crisis" because it happened only days after Barbarossa started. The Swedish government was forced to accept a fully armed German division to be transported on Swedish rail from Norway to Finland to aid the German offensive there.

Here is info in Norwegian:
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sverige_un ... erdenskrig

This site also claims that Germany prepared for an invasion of Sweden in 1942 by sending more and more troops to Norway. The reason was that Hitler was not satisfied with the Swedish support and feared that Sweden would't oppose a British invasion if they invaded via Norway. Swedish intelligence had broken the German codes and got information about such plans. So they responded with conducting a large military exercise with more than 300.000 troops showing Germany they were more than capable of stopping Britain, and maybe even Germany.

So one reason the Germans sent so many troops could therefore be that they wanted to have them there in case it became necessary to invade Sweden. Hitler was obscessed with ensuring a steady flow of Swedish iron ore so he feared a British invasion in northern Norway with the goal to capture the Swedish iron mines in Kiruna and Gällivare. We all know that a German invasion didn't happen. Maybe partly because the Swedes showed both Britain and Germany they had a considerable force and were willing to fight back if attacked.

Sweden terminated the transit agreement in August 1943. Then a lot of German troops were stuck in Norway because it was risky and would take time to send many thousand German soldiers back to Germany via sea transports. 365.000 German troops were still in Norway in May 1945 when Germany surrendered. So the termination of the transit agreement definitely helped the Allies capturing Germany a bit sooner. The size of the German forces in Norway was so big so the Allies feared the German leaders would flee to Norway and continue to fight there. It would have been a very costly offensive to liberate Norway. Fortunately the Germans surrendered in Norway after the Germans had surrendered on the continent. So we (the Norwegians) were spared of a very bloody liberation war where many civilians would have been killed or wounded.

[lomyrin]

As far as I recall there were also a lot of British torpedoboats running the Skagerack German naval blockade with ballbearings from Sweden in the early part ofthe war.
 
Lars

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

I like the change too, and the map supports the change. Also this is a modern map, before there were less roads and the wetlands/marsh was bigger

Would you have the same scaled map that shows the north of Finland, for comparison of the wet areas.

I ask this because one could also say that the wet areas of northern Sweden are depicted on the MWiF map by depicting a lot of rivers, that would maybe not be large enough to appear on the map if there were not the wet areas.

If I could see the same scaled map of northern Finland, we could compare the "amount" of wet areas in nothern Finland, and compare it to the amount of wet areas in northern Sweden, so that a good guess of the right amount of Swamp hexes we need can be found.


PS : I'm reading Stieg Larsson's Millenium books right now, that are set in Sweden, and I like it because it gives me a picture of Sweden that I did not have before -- Before, Sweden was the land of Abba maidens for me -- [:D]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I would like the Swedish railway net to look something like this.

During 3 years of the war some 2 million german troops were transported through Sweden. Most were wounded or soldiers on leave with the exeption of a division with weapons and ammunitions. This used up 10% of the Swedish railcapacity at its peak. The trains and railway was guarded by 15000 Swedish troops. The trains did not pass Stockholm.

-Orm

Well, I must say that why not make those changes. They are not very large.

The only thing that makes me doubt is the bit of railway that you add that links Gallivare to the rest of Sweden, without going through Boden & Lulea. Is it right to allow the Swedish iron to leave Sweden from another port than Lulea if Lulea is enemy controlled ?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Well, I must say that why not make those changes. They are not very large.

The only thing that makes me doubt is the bit of railway that you add that links Gallivare to the rest of Sweden, without going through Boden & Lulea. Is it right to allow the Swedish iron to leave Sweden from another port than Lulea if Lulea is enemy controlled ?

On the other hand, here is how northern Sweden looked like in the original CWiF.
You'll notice that your connecting railway in Gallivare was already there, and there also are swamps next to river hexes.

So I think I'll make both your changes, because indeed the original map was already pointing in that direction. Moreover, Incy & PeskPesk, both from there support that.

As a note, I'd say that I changed that originaly so that the MWiF map was closer to the WiF FE Scandinavia map (swamps & rail), but I think that it is OK as you drew it.

[peskpesk]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

I like the change too, and the map supports the change. Also this is a modern map, before there were less roads and the wetlands/marsh was bigger

Would you have the same scaled map that shows the north of Finland, for comparison of the wet areas.

I ask this because one could also say that the wet areas of northern Sweden are depicted on the MWiF map by depicting a lot of rivers, that would maybe not be large enough to appear on the map if there were not the wet areas.

If I could see the same scaled map of northern Finland, we could compare the "amount" of wet areas in nothern Finland, and compare it to the amount of wet areas in northern Sweden, so that a good guess of the right amount of Swamp hexes we need can be found.


PS : I'm reading Stieg Larsson's Millenium books right now, that are set in Sweden, and I like it because it gives me a picture of Sweden that I did not have before -- Before, Sweden was the land of Abba maidens for me -- [:D]

Sure, here is the first of two. Too me it's seams similar, even tough Finland should have more Swamps hexes than Sweden, Sweden should have swamp hexes!

PS the maidens are very fair, and often fall for southern European guys with a charming accent…

[peskpesk]

two of two

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk
PS the maidens are very fair, and often fall for southern European guys with a charming accent…

Hey, that's me !
I should have gone to Sweden !

[peskpesk]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Well, I must say that why not make those changes. They are not very large.

The only thing that makes me doubt is the bit of railway that you add that links Gallivare to the rest of Sweden, without going through Boden & Lulea. Is it right to allow the Swedish iron to leave Sweden from another port than Lulea if Lulea is enemy controlled ?

On the other hand, here is how northern Sweden looked like in the original CWiF.
You'll notice that your connecting railway in Gallivare was already there, and there also are swamps next to river hexes.

So I think I'll make both your changes, because indeed the original map was already pointing in that direction. Moreover, Incy & PeskPesk, both from there support that.

As a note, I'd say that I changed that originaly so that the MWiF map was closer to the WiF FE Scandinavia map (swamps & rail), but I think that it is OK as you drew it.

Yes! This is more like it! The CWiF maps look more correct with the swamps! [:)]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I would like the Swedish railway net to look something like this.

During 3 years of the war some 2 million german troops were transported through Sweden. Most were wounded or soldiers on leave with the exeption of a division with weapons and ammunitions. This used up 10% of the Swedish railcapacity at its peak. The trains and railway was guarded by 15000 Swedish troops. The trains did not pass Stockholm.

-Orm

I like to add names at the extremities of railway spurs. What would be the name to add to that spur of railway that extends NW from Stockholm ?

Also, where is Hedebyön / Hedestads the island where the action takes place in the Millenium book ?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
I like to add names at the extremities of railway spurs. What would be the name to add to that spur of railway that extends NW from Stockholm ?

Also, what would be the best name to add at the crossroad of railways west of Sundsvall ?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Also, what would be the best name to add at the crossroad of railways west of Sundsvall ?

Would it be Ostersund ? Or Ange ?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Also, where is Hedebyön / Hedestads the island where the action takes place in the Millenium book ?

Hedebyön / Hedestads is fiction and invented by the author. According to the desciptions in the book the location would be 1 (or 2) hex south of Sundsvall on the wif map. Close to the real town Hudiksvall.

-Orm