Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
What would be the name to add to that spur of railway that extends NW from Stockholm ?

Would it be Borlange ? Or Falun ?
Not Mora, it seems to be out of reach from the railway, even nowadays.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Also, what would be the best name to add at the crossroad of railways west of Sundsvall ?

Would it be Ostersund ? Or Ange ?

Östersund or Ostersund.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Froonp
What would be the name to add to that spur of railway that extends NW from Stockholm ?

Would it be Borlange ? Or Falun ?
Not Mora, it seems to be out of reach from the railway, even nowadays.

When I draw it I was thinking of Mora and the rail goes a bit further for industrial use (timber). I had trouble with that "Dalälven" for hex purposes turns a bit south but I thought placing it there would be to close to Norway.

And, Yes, the train still goes there.





A train Mora-Stockholm at Häradsbygden between Leksand and Insjön taken 1 juli 2004. Foto Martin Oscarsson.

[Froonp]

Good. Everything is dutyfuly noted, I have the maps you drawn for me, I'll do the changes, as well as the ones in Kenya and some in the USA (all noted since some weeks / days ago) tomorrow evening (damn, I won't be able to read Millenium (2), same as tonight ! [;)]).

[ahlner]

The end of the railway line NW of Stockholm is Mora and the crossroad to the north is located at the city of Östersund. In fact the railway line from Gällivare/Storuman ends at Mora (in Swedish called Inlandsbanan) and it was finished in 1937. There should consequently be a railway line connecting these places for the map to be fully correct.

I am highly hesitant about if it was possible to redirect the Swedish iron ore to another port than Luleå if enemy controlled. I believe the railway line southwards from Gällivare had a low technical standard and was not suitable for heavy transports. In addition there have to be special port facilities to unload/load the iron ore and I think only Luleå was capable of that.

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

PS the maidens are very fair, and often fall for southern European guys with a charming accent…

A bribe of sorts to get the changes you want to the map?

Oh, and what about Canadian guys, eh? [;)]

I'm sure as a Soviet MWiF player I will curse my increased difficulty marching overland on Sweden as part of my late-game effort to secure objectives.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: ahlner

The end of the railway line NW of Stockholm is Mora and the crossroad to the north is located at the city of Östersund. In fact the railway line from Gällivare/Storuman ends at Mora (in Swedish called Inlandsbanan) and it was finished in 1937. There should consequently be a railway line connecting these places for the map to be fully correct.

I am highly hesitant about if it was possible to redirect the Swedish iron ore to another port than Luleå if enemy controlled. I believe the railway line southwards from Gällivare had a low technical standard and was not suitable for heavy transports. In addition there have to be special port facilities to unload/load the iron ore and I think only Luleå was capable of that.

I considered adding the line Östersund - Mora to my suggestion but I felt the capacity might be to low for a change in MWiF. I also felt that there might be to much rail in "middle Sweden" as not all railways should become railway hexes in MWIF. I also considered to suggest to remove the railway going from Östersund north to... well I have no clue to where that railway on the "original" wif map is supposed to end. But to keep the changes low I decided in the end just to let in continue to Gällivare.

In an earlier tread there was a discussion about ore and railways in Sweden. See tm.asp?m=1785560

Transporting the ore to any other port than Luleå or Narvik would be difficult/impossible but this is a game and making alot of special rules seems a bad idea to me. There are other resources that can have even more impossible routes as well. I feel the "Narvik" rule is enough.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Just a note to bring to everyone's attention that we are up to 448 posts concerning revisions to the Scandinavian portion of the map.[:'(]

[Greyshaft]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Just a note to bring to everyone's attention that we are up to 448 posts concerning revisions to the Scandinavian portion of the map.[:'(]

Hitler did see this region as the Zone of Destiny...

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

At most there was more than 350.000 German soldiers in Norway. A considerable force was fighting from Finnmark (Kirkenes port etc.) against the Russians near Murmansk. When the Russians advanced through Finland and westwards in Finnmark the Germans retreated using the scorched earth policy. Lots of towns in northern Norway were burnt to the ground. So the Germans were particularly unpopular in northern Norway for a long time after the war.

Germany had garrisons spread all over Norway partly to prevent an Allied invasion, but also as support of their air, naval and sub bases along the Norwegian coast and protect the shipment of iron ore from the port of Narvik.

I saw a program on Swedish TV about the Germans bullying the Swedish government into accepting that armed German combat troops were sent from Germany via Sweden to fight in Finland. It created a political crisis in the Swedish government and they had to make it a secret. The official story was that German troops on leave were transported to/from their holidays, but some of the troops were sent fully armed in order to fight. The political crisis was called the "Midsummer crisis" because it happened only days after Barbarossa started. The Swedish government was forced to accept a fully armed German division to be transported on Swedish rail from Norway to Finland to aid the German offensive there.

Here is info in Norwegian:
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sverige_un ... erdenskrig

This site also claims that Germany prepared for an invasion of Sweden in 1942 by sending more and more troops to Norway. The reason was that Hitler was not satisfied with the Swedish support and feared that Sweden would't oppose a British invasion if they invaded via Norway. Swedish intelligence had broken the German codes and got information about such plans. So they responded with conducting a large military exercise with more than 300.000 troops showing Germany they were more than capable of stopping Britain, and maybe even Germany.

So one reason the Germans sent so many troops could therefore be that they wanted to have them there in case it became necessary to invade Sweden. Hitler was obscessed with ensuring a steady flow of Swedish iron ore so he feared a British invasion in northern Norway with the goal to capture the Swedish iron mines in Kiruna and Gällivare. We all know that a German invasion didn't happen. Maybe partly because the Swedes showed both Britain and Germany they had a considerable force and were willing to fight back if attacked.

Sweden terminated the transit agreement in August 1943. Then a lot of German troops were stuck in Norway because it was risky and would take time to send many thousand German soldiers back to Germany via sea transports. 365.000 German troops were still in Norway in May 1945 when Germany surrendered. So the termination of the transit agreement definitely helped the Allies capturing Germany a bit sooner. The size of the German forces in Norway was so big so the Allies feared the German leaders would flee to Norway and continue to fight there. It would have been a very costly offensive to liberate Norway. Fortunately the Germans surrendered in Norway after the Germans had surrendered on the continent. So we (the Norwegians) were spared of a very bloody liberation war where many civilians would have been killed or wounded.

This is so interesting I might as well translate it in french for the french wikipedia and put the norse wiki as a source.

[0331marine]

Its interesting to see how all the misconceptions about tundra are played out. This time of the year is the best time for manuvers, infact almost the only time of the year to effectivly fight in the Finnmark/Murmansk area. A good friend of mine did his nation service year up there as a boarderguard/instructor. He told me it is all swamp and mountian, and even more swamp and mountian. Only vehicle they could use off road was the tracked BV series, mind you for those who dont know what the BVs are, they are unarmored, and they run on rubber tracks about 2 feet wide. The reason for the swampish/marshy conditions are quite simple, the ground is frozen due to permafrost, so all the precipitation that falls have no drainage, in the normal sense. If one look at overhead imagery of Finnmark and Troms there is a marked diffrence in the amount of small lakes that are in Finnmark. The same is for Kola. It is almost as if God acid etched the whole region so that it is almost like porous preforated landscape resting on a ocean. So to give it no combat effect is way to nice, from a realistic perspective, it should have swamp effects and swamp movements. Also there should be a lessened stacking limit, say of max one piece, meaning you only get one div or corps per hex. The reason behind this is simple enough, most armies on the eastern front used horses to carry their supplies, and up north there isnt an abundance of fooder, this infomation I have from a gaming aciontance who was an officer with the last packhorse company the Norwegian Army had, which was dispanded in the 1980s. It is in these days infact that you can do the most serious manuvers in the north, this is cause the ground has become frozen enough to take the veight of heavy machinery and also the daylight have returned suficentlly to manuver in any meaningful fashion, bear in mind this is if you discount the use of night vision equipment which we now take for granted. Another telling point, is that the Russians only liberated Kirkenes, after the Germans had evacuated it, and set up more defensible possitions at Skibotn vally, which lies 400 km west of Kirkenes. Why didnt the Russians go stopping down the Finnmark platau? Even today the Norwegian Army operate on the same defensive strategy, Finnmark is only lightly garrisioned by two battalion sized ranger formations. One at the boarder and one in the middle of the country at Porsanger. The main formation 6th division is held back in Troms country and the two garrisons in Finnmark are mainly used as tripwires and LRRG formations, which will exfiltrate in the case of war back to Troms.

Semper Fi

[AdurianJ]

The railroad from Oslo to Stockholm should intersect with the Gothenburg Stockholm line in the hex West of it right next to lake Vänern.

The inland railroad in northern Sweden should also connect to one of the resource hexes. The railroad actually goes all the way down to Vänern but that can be laid asside. The importance of the Inlandsbanan is that since it was built as a secure transport route / make work program in the 1930's it was out of sight being in the middle of the dense Swedish forest. This was a major advantage to Stockholm when german troops where allowed to use the Swedish railroad network to get from Trondheim to Narvik, they where transported on Inlandsbanan as to not cause agitation.

Also just to be annoying the port of "Mo i Rana" should be added because that's the target of the Swedish counteroffensive in warplans from 1942 onwards. The plan was to make a counter-attack and establish contact with the western allies to get aid.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: AdurianJ

The railroad from Oslo to Stockholm should intersect with the Gothenburg Stockholm line in the hex West of it right next to lake Vänern.

The inland railroad in northern Sweden should also connect to one of the resource hexes. The railroad actually goes all the way down to Vänern but that can be laid asside. The importance of the Inlandsbanan is that since it was built as a secure transport route / make work program in the 1930's it was out of sight being in the middle of the dense Swedish forest. This was a major advantage to Stockholm when german troops where allowed to use the Swedish railroad network to get from Trondheim to Narvik, they where transported on Inlandsbanan as to not cause agitation.

Also just to be annoying the port of "Mo i Rana" should be added because that's the target of the Swedish counteroffensive in warplans from 1942 onwards. The plan was to make a counter-attack and establish contact with the western allies to get aid.

Thanks for the input.[:)] I am letting Patrice make the decisions about the map.

As for the port, those are a delicate matter. Part of the problem is that in WIF ports represent both commercial and military ports. The major ports are pretty easy to decide to include but the minor ports are aggravating. Some of them served important military purposes but had no commercial utility, and vice-a-versa. If we add a port to the map, then the players can use it for both (i.e., repairing/bringing in naval units and transporting resources). We also have to be careful about play balance (e.g., stacking for air units). And there is always the risk of just simply overwhelming the map with ports if we are not careful.

Cities present a similar problem.

In general, we try to leave the European map as WIF FE renders it, getting approval from Harry Rowland before/after making changes.

Now Scandinavia was a particular hassle because WIF FE fudges a lot about the 3 northern countries (e.g., placing Bergen far too south). What we have now reflects a bunch of input from Danes, Swedes, Finns, and Norwegians, amongst others.

Hopefully Patrice will stop by and reply to your advice on improvements.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: AdurianJ

The railroad from Oslo to Stockholm should intersect with the Gothenburg Stockholm line in the hex West of it right next to lake Vänern.

The inland railroad in northern Sweden should also connect to one of the resource hexes. The railroad actually goes all the way down to Vänern but that can be laid asside. The importance of the Inlandsbanan is that since it was built as a secure transport route / make work program in the 1930's it was out of sight being in the middle of the dense Swedish forest. This was a major advantage to Stockholm when german troops where allowed to use the Swedish railroad network to get from Trondheim to Narvik, they where transported on Inlandsbanan as to not cause agitation.

Also just to be annoying the port of "Mo i Rana" should be added because that's the target of the Swedish counteroffensive in warplans from 1942 onwards. The plan was to make a counter-attack and establish contact with the western allies to get aid.

[brian brian]

I predict sales will be strong in Scandinavia...

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I predict sales will be strong in Scandinavia...

A good MWiF game to help pass the long scandinavian or canadian winter. [:D]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: AdurianJ

The railroad from Oslo to Stockholm should intersect with the Gothenburg Stockholm line in the hex West of it right next to lake Vänern.

The inland railroad in northern Sweden should also connect to one of the resource hexes. The railroad actually goes all the way down to Vänern but that can be laid asside. The importance of the Inlandsbanan is that since it was built as a secure transport route / make work program in the 1930's it was out of sight being in the middle of the dense Swedish forest. This was a major advantage to Stockholm when german troops where allowed to use the Swedish railroad network to get from Trondheim to Narvik, they where transported on Inlandsbanan as to not cause agitation.

First, thanks for your input and interest.
But also, what is the source of these suggestions ? Have you got a map ?

Also just to be annoying the port of "Mo i Rana" should be added because that's the target of the Swedish counteroffensive in warplans from 1942 onwards. The plan was to make a counter-attack and establish contact with the western allies to get aid.

[lomyrin]

The rail locations in Sweden were subject of a lot of discussion sevceral years ago.

My only comment is that the rail crossing on the east side of lake Vänern is actually located a little into the hex to the east of where it is shown in the town of Hallsberg. That town is too small to be shown.

Lars.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: AdurianJ

The railroad from Oslo to Stockholm should intersect with the Gothenburg Stockholm line in the hex West of it right next to lake Vänern.

The inland railroad in northern Sweden should also connect to one of the resource hexes. The railroad actually goes all the way down to Vänern but that can be laid asside. The importance of the Inlandsbanan is that since it was built as a secure transport route / make work program in the 1930's it was out of sight being in the middle of the dense Swedish forest. This was a major advantage to Stockholm when german troops where allowed to use the Swedish railroad network to get from Trondheim to Narvik, they where transported on Inlandsbanan as to not cause agitation.

First, thanks for your input and interest.
But also, what is the source of these suggestions ? Have you got a map ?

Also just to be annoying the port of "Mo i Rana" should be added because that's the target of the Swedish counteroffensive in warplans from 1942 onwards. The plan was to make a counter-attack and establish contact with the western allies to get aid.

Maybe you could provide a drawing using the map posted above, to show what you propose ? It is always easier to visualise maps with a drawing [:D]