Flakpanzer IV "Wirbelwind" ... Prototype

[Mraah]

And now for something completely different ...

When spellir74 posted his problems with creating a 221 turret, I decided to look at the 222 turret. When I imported it into fragM I realized the turret looks like the whirbelwind turret in a funny kind of way. So, I did a little importing/exporting, a little adjustment here and there, added some more components and came up with an adhoc whirbelwind turret.

Below is the screens shots from MS3D.

As you can see it's a hybrid turret. I imported all the parts piecemeal into fragM (to retain the original model layout) and exported them into MS3D. I prefer to work with MS3D since I haven't mastered fragM. Also, I imported the PzIV parts (with animation) because I needed a reference for the turret and when I need to animate the turret I can use the vehicle body animation to help line it up when it's destroyed.

The hybrid parts are :
- 222 turret. I made a duplicate and mirrored it to give it that sloped shape. The 20mm guns were duplicates arranged to fit the turret and the MG's were removed.
- Flak36 ... 88 base gun. You can see the base parts and seats.

Anyway, it's just a prototype ... With some more work on mesh alignment and textures it might actually look half descent [:)]

Rob

[spellir74]

Looks real good.

More targets for the reds. LOL But thats okay I like "front depth" scenarios. Good for break through exploition.

Your pzschrek too.

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I'll probably take you up on your offer and pick your brain.

...It seems that when one brings a gun or turret over which was a body in its orig folder, it won't just go to a new body

--even if bone names are changed. There is some esoteric step missing. BUT if one brings over something that was originally

called a turret, then it will go easily.

For example, a pzIII turret brought over to my 251 D folder works; the new turret can be clipped and repositioned etc (in

FrgM). But bringing a Pak40 over doesn't work (no matter what I do). Note that the Pak 40 starts as a body file in its orig folder. (I did Stridor's steps too of course --I am able to successfully import and export X files to PzC using FrgM.)

Same for the BA64 little turret (used as turret for new 221 model). The turret is part of the BA64 body (its actual turret file is 'empty'). Just clipping off the body vertixes/faces, repositioning the remaining turret, re assigning/ weighting the vertixes to bones and bringing it over to the 221 folder as a 'turret' file doesn't work.

But notice that your Pak36 (Mraah) for the 251/10 started as a body file too yet you were able to change it and get it to work as a HT turret. How? I see you deleted the animations and clipped the hell out of the verts/faces etc. But something more was done on top of that.

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[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: spellir74

But bringing a Pak40 over doesn't work (no matter what I do). Note that the Pak 40 starts as a body file in its orig folder. (I did Stridor's steps too of course --I am able to successfully import and export X files to PzC using FrgM.)

Same for the BA64 little turret (used as turret for new 221 model). The turret is part of the BA64 body (its actual turret file is 'empty'). Just clipping off the body vertixes/faces, repositioning the remaining turret, re assigning/ weighting the vertixes to bones and bringing it over to the 221 folder as a 'turret' file doesn't work.

But notice that your Pak36 (Mraah) for the 251/10 started as a body file too yet you were able to change it and get it to work as a HT turret. How? I see you deleted the animations and clipped the hell out of the verts/faces etc. But something more was done on top of that.

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spellir74,

You know, I'll have to see your project files (.ugh) to help narrow down your problem.
FragM is new to me but I'm seeing problems (difficulties) at removing mesh, vertexes, and animation.

Since you're using "body" models the animation isn't the same as a turret. So, a turret X will fit on another turret X reference. The body X won't fit as a turret X unless you delete all the animations and bones and start from scratch ... At least, that's what I did with the pak36 ... I just altered the mesh and added the bones .... there is no animation in my 251/10 turret ... I was planning on adding animation to the 251/10 turret later as v2.

Do you know how to add bones in FragM ???

Do you have MS3D ???

If all else fails ... I made a Pak40 turret for the 251 ... The screenshot below is from FragM ... I have both formats, .ugh and .ms3d.
BTW, are you trying to build the 251/9 with the short barrel 75 ?
Is the 251/4 the long barrel version?

Rob

[spellir74]

Thanks for the help.

I, Before I posted above, deleted all the animations and _renamed_ all the bones, deleting most of the unnecessary ones ('wheels' and such).

I did not do bones over from scratch; just rrenamed and deleted extraneous. I was trying to save some original work (and take a shortcut [8|]).

I will add new bones and see if that was it --the missing trick. (If it is, then there is something about bones that is not editable easily by end user. In other words, if one puts a bone in a body file it will always be a body bone --even if names are changed. !But there is nothing I see in the progs that lets user know about, and edit, that aspect of bones.)

I have full versions of ms3d and fragmotion. (Bought ms3d two days before JMass' link to frag...)

After I redo bones -and test-- you can upload your Pak40 turret anyway and I will use _it_ instead and give you credit. (Remember I tried to include everyone in this project and no one wanted to come.)

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I'm doing all 250 and 251 gunned versions (and 'ob spot'/tech/com representatives), except the 250 75mm and 37mm (don't know doctrine for those top heavy things). Also I am doing 251D and eventually 250Neu hull types and many skins /normals.

The 251 /09 75mm is easy actually, because one just has to bring over the PzIII _turret_ file and then clip and position mesh (keeping bones and animations even!). It figures that I did that one last [easy, educational].

I've been tweaking and testing pak40, pak36-fresh, and BA64 files for days now. If I would have had success with a PzIII turret I might have seen `the light; might have possibly been able to solve this on my own.

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/04 is early gun towing; it was replaced by Kompanie HQ 251/09. My 251 INFO sheet is below; easy on memory and is basically definitive.

4 hull types-- A-C & D

Variant Description

251/1 Schützenpzwagen _standard APC: 1 sqd or 2 MG tms.
251/1-II 'Wurfrahmen' /'Stuka zu Fuss' _Nebelwerfer equipped. (Less effective than Pzwerfer Maultier.)
251/1- SPW (IR) 'Falke' _'Falcon' infrared detector paired with 251/20.
251/2 SPW (8cm GrW) _mortar (and wurfrahmen 'Infanterie Stuka' seen as '/2')
251/3 Funkwagen _Radio & enigma (higher command and staff -links arms of battle); frame antenna until '42
251/4 SPW (J G) Munitions _gun towing: 105mm Haubitze {howitzer}, PaK 40/38, IG; replaced by 251/09. ('Abschlepp')
251/5 SPW (Pi) Pionierzug _engineer pltn HQ --radio control
251/6 Kommandopzwagen _high command --scissor telescope; until 1943
251/7 Pionierwagen _engineers (bridging stores)
251/8 Krankenwagen _Armoured ambulance
251/9 SPW (75mm KwK L/24) _rifle comp HQ with 75mm howitzer mount: 'Stummel'{Stump} [SP/HT75] --not until late '42
251/10 SPW (37mm PaK 36) _rifle pltn HQ with 37mm ATG mount [SP/HT37]
251/11 Fernsprechpanzerwagen _telephone cable layer and exchange
251/12 Meßtrupp- und Gerätpanzerwagen _arti surveyor
251/13 Schallaufnahmepanzerwagen _arti sound recording
251/14 Schallaufwertenpanzerwagen _arti sound ranging
251/15 Lichtauswertepanzerwagen _arti flash spot and rec
251/16 Flammenwerferpanzerwagen _2 flammthrower mounts (140mm); 1944 (Market Garden)
251/17 SPW (2cm FlaK) _20mm AA mount
251/18 Beobachtungspanzerwagen _artillery spotter/ observation post (some as '/18-II')
251/19 Fernsprechbetriebspanzerwagen _mobile telephone relay /"exchange"
251/20 SPW Infrarotscheinwerfer /Uhu _'owl' infrared searchlight; paired with detectors on Panther and 251/1D (IR) 'Falke'
251/21 SPW (Drilling MG151S) _15mm/20mm FlaK, tripod 'drill' mount
251/22 SPW (75mm PaK 40) _75mm ATG mount, late '44
251/23 SPW (2cm KwK 38) /Gerät 923 _'Hängelafette 38', recon with sdk234/1 turret --very rare.

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: spellir74

I have full versions of ms3d and fragmotion. (Bought ms3d two days before JMass' link to frag...)

After I redo bones -and test-- you can upload your Pak40 turret anyway and I will use _it_ instead and give you credit. (Remember I tried to include everyone in this project and no one wanted to come.)

Ok ... I'm glad you have both programs ... At least we're on the same wavelength so we can jump thru the hoops together.

Tell you what ... We need to start a new thread for the 251/22 ... If you can't get your model working then I'll walk you through the steps because I feel you want to learn how and the best way is to start from scratch ... All these programs (like FragM) that do all the work may make life easier but as you can see, it's making life miserable when something doesn't work.

251/22 SPW (75mm PaK 40) _75mm ATG mount, late '44

Ahhh ... you always have the list handy [&o] ... the 251/22 ... yeah, that's the ticket [;)]

Rob

[Stridor]

Rob,

Wondered where you got too, then you come out with this!

Well done!

Regards

S.