Directive 21 playtesters thread

[sPzAbt653]

Do you speak deutsch?

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... chutze.htm

Niene. But if you could tell me what the two charts represent, that might be a big help, as they have easy numbers that us Amis can understand!

Danke

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: wmorris

Back to the aircraft production numbers-

This does not take into account any city losses

But don't you have to factor in the city losses? They are there and they will happen. The FitE numbers were based on this, and doing some quick reckoning, it brings them into line with the numbers you have reported.

[Telumar]

Well. there's technical info (ranges, shell weight) and organisational info in the text, but it seems it is not complete. Nevertheless:

In Service: 1941 (Ostfront):
Eisenbahn-Artillerie-Batterie 701(2 Guns), 2./Eisenbahn-Artillerie-Abteilung 725 (1 Gun, AG South)
Eisenbahn-Artillerie-Batterien 710, 712, 713, 765 (each 2 guns, AG Center)
all these units were equipped with some version of the 28cm K5


EDIT: I messed up cell format.. Aug-18 should read 8 - 18

On the lexikon-der wehrmacht site, the first table shows production numbers per year, the second table shows production of ammunition per gun type and year.

A copy of the latest directive 21 version to cariundel at yahoo de would be appreciated. Keep it going, been following this thread from the very beginning.

[sPzAbt653]

there's technical info (ranges, shell weight)

The technical stuuf isn't as important as trying to match the battery #'s with the guns attached, and then to try and find out where they were and when. So this info looks pretty good.

A copy of the latest directive 21 version

File sent.

Thanks!

[wmorris]

But don't you have to factor in the city losses? They are there and they will happen. The FitE numbers were based on this, and doing some quick reckoning, it brings them into line with the numbers you have reported.

Yes, but how many do you assume....and how much is this offset by the city workers production increase? This is what Im back and forth about.

Also have to keep in mind that fully 20% of Russian production FOR THE ENTIRE GAME occurs in the last 53 turns, and I dont think this unreasonable.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Well. there's technical info (ranges, shell weight) and organisational info in the text, but it seems it is not complete. Nevertheless:

In Service: 1941 (Ostfront):
Eisenbahn-Artillerie-Batterie 701(2 Guns), 2./Eisenbahn-Artillerie-Abteilung 725 (1 Gun, AG South)
Eisenbahn-Artillerie-Batterien 710, 712, 713, 765 (each 2 guns, AG Center)
all these units were equipped with some version of the 28cm K5


EDIT: I messed up cell format.. Aug-18 should read 8 - 18

On the lexikon-der wehrmacht site, the first table shows production numbers per year, the second table shows production of ammunition per gun type and year.

A copy of the latest directive 21 version to cariundel at yahoo de would be appreciated. Keep it going, been following this thread from the very beginning.

Some errata (my commments)

15cm : all produced pre war, 4 active in 1940 (no information on the others but probably in reserve)
17cm : 6 produced pre war, 3 each in 717, 718
20cm: 8 total; 4 each in 42 and 43 (no indication in which units they served)
24cm, both models: 9 total, 2 each in 664,674,721,722 (doesn't specify which model in which unit, 1 in reserve?)
28cm, all Bruno models: 12 , 2 each in 689, 690, 694, 695 and 696 (doesn't specify which model in which unit or what happened to the other 2 produced)
28cm, T7,K5: available beginning Barbarossa 2 each in 710, 712, 713, 765, 1 each in 701 and 725 (according to OKH 22 produced by 28.09.1944; 3? prewar, 2 1939, 3 1940, 2 1941, 8 1942, 2 1943; 14 others ordered)
38cm: one each in service 09.1942; 12.1942; 10.1943; 12.1943 (2 each in 698 and 686)

[sPzAbt653]

Some errata (my commments)

More good stuff, thanks!

[MechFO]

Based on what criteria are Rifle or Hvy Rifle Squads given? I ask because the Romanians gave every Squad a 60 mortar in 1942, in addition to the normal Squad LMG's this doesn't look very different from German Squads firepower wise. I assume the lower overall proficiency of Romanian units is covered by the proficiency setting.

Also what do MMG's present? Are these supposed to be the integral Squad LMG's, listed separately?

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: MechFO

Based on what criteria are Rifle or Hvy Rifle Squads given? I ask because the Romanians gave every Squad a 60 mortar in 1942, in addition to the normal Squad LMG's this doesn't look very different from German Squads firepower wise. I assume the lower overall proficiency of Romanian units is covered by the proficiency setting.

Well, we could change everybody to Rifle Squads and readjust all the proficiencies.

Also what do MMG's present? Are these supposed to be the integral Squad LMG's, listed separately?

There is a real nice WWII Equipment database that includes all the various weapons. I'd love to use it, but it's really for a time when a new scenario is being created, not for refitting an existing one.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

ORIGINAL: MechFO

Based on what criteria are Rifle or Hvy Rifle Squads given? I ask because the Romanians gave every Squad a 60 mortar in 1942, in addition to the normal Squad LMG's this doesn't look very different from German Squads firepower wise. I assume the lower overall proficiency of Romanian units is covered by the proficiency setting.

Well, we could change everybody to Rifle Squads and readjust all the proficiencies.

I think having a differentiation is sensible. The Soviets seemed to be a step a behind in Squad Weapons until 44/45 and Mech/Tank Corps already have Assault Squads so I think the present set up makes sense.

However I do think one could justify giving the Rumanian Regular Divisions (Inf and Arm) Hvy Rifle Squads, since they had considerable fire power at Squad level from late 41/early 42 onward. The alternative is to give them massive amounts of 60mm mortars which I think is more distorting.

Rumanian Reserve and Mountain Divisions are a different matter. There Rifle Squads seem to be appropriate.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Also what do MMG's present? Are these supposed to be the integral Squad LMG's, listed separately?

There is a real nice WWII Equipment database that includes all the various weapons. I'd love to use it, but it's really for a time when a new scenario is being created, not for refitting an existing one.

I'm not advocating changing it, just asking what they represent in Real World terms. They show up all over the place and I was wondering how they were counted.

[wmorris]

Replacement of 130 for IL-2 (IL-10 added in) provides almost exactly the # of historical units produced:

Turn 1-47: 44 per turn- 2068 (replacements x.34 starting turn 1)
Turn 48-77: 88 per turn - 2640 (replacements x2.0 strating turn 48)
Turn 78-351: 132 per turn - 36036 (replacements x1.5 starting turn 78)
Turn 352-end: 199 per turn- 10291 (replacements x 1.5 staring turn 352)
Total 51291 (my research numbers yielded 52K and 48K so I'm all right with this)

No.

I transposed some numbers from research somewhere. Total IL-2 and IL-10 production was 41-42K total, and many of the 5-6K IL-10's were produced after the war, so 39-40K is probably correct.

The replacement # of 120 that I have been using produces ~45,600 aircraft by the formula above. I think that this takes care of city losses in the early period, and may be a bit high. The point is that 304, as in the original design, is extravagantly excessive.

[sPzAbt653]

The point is that 304, as in the original design, is extravagantly excessive.

D21 modestly changed the number from 304 to 290, and our production manager comes up with a total of 47,000 aircraft. These numbers have been crunched time and time again over the years, and they always end up being proven as correct as can be expected. You can certainly do what you want, but I'd rather use the time on this thread in assisting Elmer with his dual against a human opponent.

[wmorris]

I'd rather use the time on this thread in assisting Elmer with his duel against a human opponent.

I just realized that you have different production modifier events in D21, so it makes our numbers different.

I beg pardon, I realize that I have strayed rather far afield and will post in the appropriate thread.

Thanks

[sPzAbt653]

Turns 145-152. After clearing the Soviet forces gathering around the Moscow area, and the October 1942 mud (8 turns), it's time to start moving into the south. This is the great expanse that I have always feared, it's a dismal abyss that sucks all units committed to it into a black hole from which there is no recovery. But up 'til now, everything has gone my way, so I must remain confident. I've got all four Panzer Army's intact and on the move, so I curse anything that stands in my way.

[sPzAbt653]

With this much force, what can stand in my way? Every unit that Elmer throws in front of me is brushed aside.

[sPzAbt653]

Of course, I do have to guard everywhere to make sure that Elmer doesn't bite me, especially on the flanks. In the far south, he's attacked my Kherson bridgehead a few times but I've held, he took the Beryslav bridge from me, and now two hexes west of Beryslav he gets across the river. I should be able to contain the threat, I hope.

[larryfulkerson]

So um....hey you guys. Steve Sill sent to me the newest version of "Directive 21" and I posted it on the file server so you can download it easily. You can find it here:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?lhmtzoymjnz

Let me know if there is a problem and I'll see what I can do to fix it. As always, please let us know how your game goes.

[Silvanski]

Download link OK Larry, thanks

[sPzAbt653]

Thanks guys.

Stefan allowed me to edit the original background document so that it pertains to D21. It's pretty big but contains a lot of info that raises questions all the time, so it's worth skimming thru. I try to keep it up with the latest changes, if anybody thinks something should be added or changed, just let me know.

[Telumar]

So, i played until the middle of turn 3 so far, Elmer's behaviour looks quite historical, he pushed all of his Mech Corps forward only to find himself encircled, starved out and mopped up. I blitzed to the outskirts of Minsk and am beginning to envelope the City which seems not well defended. In other areas Elmer could delay me more successfully with counterattacks and throwing everything in my way, though his counterattacks didn't cause much damage. Seems he doesn't care about interdiction, too.

Something catched my attention: The SS wiking has an authorized strength of 99 StuGs 41. Why? Currently it has 83 assigned..[:-]