RHS eratta 7.958: Packaged and uploading

[el cid again]

I have converted CVO (which file applies to JFO, RAO, CAIO and MRAO) aircraft so that, if production starts after the game begins, production date is advanced one month. This is a compromise to mitigate problems having enough planes for units when they appear - and players who use the planes sooner than they should will cause those problems to reappear. Still - it is a legitimate option - and we might think of such use as a combat trial use of preproduction machines. It also makes totals by type up to about 15 (worst case if production total will be 30 or more) machines too great re allocation to theater - but (1) RHS in large production cases only gives you a percentage of the planes anyway (determined from typical diversion rates for training, experimental and other uses) and (2) production often is less than the theoretical rate indicates it is - so the total "extra" planes is not high - and it probably makes a significant difference for new units appearing near the start of production (for the better) if players don't abuse the extra machines by stealing them for upgrades. Finally - there probably is some latitude to force appearence a few weeks sooner in small numbers - and we have examples where it happened and is in the game as such (e.g. Ki-44 I). This is a data entry intensive change and needs some time to be completed.

The next update will be 9.758

[Bogo Mil]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
In my view a war game is a simulation of a world that BEGINS at a historical point (or modified historical point with different assumptions) but then GOES DIFFERENTLY FROM HISTORY because of player choices and their interactions.

Agreed. I think the Soviet OOB at 12/41 and at 8/45 should be simulated as realistic as possible. Anything inbetween is either not important (no activation) or pure speculation (Soviets activated early).

If we were to allow the Russians to use the ROC I-16 - which is historically false - it was no longer in Soviet service - we also would have to accept "wrong" plane art - the early I-16 has ROC markings. This often happens later in the game when ROC and other Allies upgrade to US or CW or even Russian plane types - but it is not ideal.

The ROC !-16 is not very suitable for the Soviets, that's true. But squadrons with SB-2 and I-153 could start with the Chiniese versions, a Pe2-squadron could start with Chinese DB-3. There would be wrong markings on the plane art, that's true. I don't know if this matters much - personally I don't care about the pictures at all, but others might see this differently.

We cannot have a different factory upgrade to a different type unless it has a different type in production - the upgrade is determined by plane type.

I don't understand this. The factories upgrade to the default upgrade of the plane they are currently producing - a few days after this plane became available. Thus, if you set the default upgrade of I-16 to La-5FN, all I-16 factories will upgrade to La-5FN. You can set the default upgrade of I-153 to IL-2M3, this will work, too.

I want to keep the VVS in quite obsolete aircraft for the early war. I think now they can modernize too fast and have too many replacements of modern types should they be activated. Later, when the west is (almost) safe, they may show more of their strength to the east. The idea to achive this is to skip the first upgrading step from I-153 and I-16 to modern aircraft for most of the squadrons (and factories) and upgrade to the 1943 types directly.

Still - the idea of upgrading from one kind of plane to a different kind entirely is useful - and already done where historically that happened - in some RHS cases.

The upgrade from I-153 to Il-2 was done historically, at least in the west. Attack units often used I-15bis or I-153 until enough Il-2 were available.

[Bogo Mil]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
>I would reclassify the I-153 to FB - in WW2 it was used as attack aircraft almost exclusively.

REPLY: Fighter bomers are less effective than either fighters or bombers - and better at nothing apparently (see the manual). Are you sure this is a good idea? WITP terms are wierd - they don't always mean what they seem to say.

Er, no, I'm not sure about the game mechanics. I thought FB had some advantage in strafing? If not, there's no use for the FB class, that's true.

The Il-2 should be reclassified, too. The plane didn't have any dive brakes, so it's not a DB. Usually it did low level strafing attacks. It's hard to fit this plane into the game engine - it's a pity that there is no "attack" class. Maybe it should be a LB, maybe even a FB (escort and CAP would not be allowed by primary house rule, of course).

REPLY: I had the impression it was a dive bomber. Even so, the greatest bombing accuracy comes from glide bombing - a shallow angle dive bombing technique - was it used that way?

Yes, if they bombed, this was a very common profile. But the primary role of the Il-2 was CAS, and bombs were not the most important weapon in this role - very often they didn't even carry bombs. Main weapon were the cannons and rockets (RS-82, RS-132, M-13, BRS-82, BRS-132). In the late war they frequently used PTAB (anti-tank bomblets, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTAB ), too.

I don't know how to model this with the game engine... Maybe the RS-82 could be a small bombs with very high accuracy? (some date: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-82_rocket ). Btw, the Soviet I-153 could also be armed with 6 or 8 RS-82 instead of 2x50 kg bombs, if this makes them more useful in the ground attack role.

Here we are interested in getting the right accuracy table - and also the AA model - at what altitude does it end up? If it dives into the target low AAA should get a shot - if not - not.

I don't have accuracy tables. The Il-2 usually flew low. Very low. They feared medium AAA (e.g. 40 mm) most - large guns are too slow to engage low flying targets, and small calliber was usually not strong enough.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

.The Il-2 should be reclassified, too. The plane didn't have any dive brakes, so it's not a DB. Usually it did low level strafing attacks. It's hard to fit this plane into the game engine - it's a pity that there is no "attack" class. Maybe it should be a LB, maybe even a FB (escort and CAP would not be allowed by primary house rule, of course).

.

Ilyushin Il-2
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"IL-2 Sturmovik" redirects here. For the computer game, see IL-2 Sturmovik (computer game).
Il-2

A Soviet Air Force Il-2M
Role Ground attack aircraft
Manufacturer Ilyushin
First flight 20 December 1939
Introduced 1941
Retired 1954 (Yugoslavia & Bulgaria)
Primary user Soviet Air Force
Produced 1941-1945[1]
Number built 36,183[2]
Variants Ilyushin Il-10
The Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmovik (Russian: Èë-2 Øòóðìîâèê) was a ground attack aircraft in the Second World War, produced by the Soviet Union in large numbers. In combination with its successor, the Ilyushin Il-10, a total of 36,163 were built, making it the single most produced military aircraft design in all of aviation history as well as the third most produced aircraft in history behind the Cessna 172 and the Polikarpov Po-2. It was a prominent aircraft for tank kills with its accuracy in dive bombing.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

.

We cannot have a different factory upgrade to a different type unless it has a different type in production - the upgrade is determined by plane type.

I don't understand this. The factories upgrade to the default upgrade of the plane they are currently producing - a few days after this plane became available. Thus, if you set the default upgrade of I-16 to La-5FN, all I-16 factories will upgrade to La-5FN. You can set the default upgrade of I-153 to IL-2M3, this will work, too.

I want to keep the VVS in quite obsolete aircraft for the early war. I think now they can modernize too fast and have too many replacements of modern types should they be activated. Later, when the west is (almost) safe, they may show more of their strength to the east. The idea to achive this is to skip the first upgrading step from I-153 and I-16 to modern aircraft for most of the squadrons (and factories) and upgrade to the 1943 types directly.

.

It is a terminology thing - it isn't the factory which upgrades - it is the plane type. We cannot set a different factory to a different upgrade using the same plane type. I misunderstood your meaning - that's all. Yes - it works as you describe here.

There are problems with the WITP system - I would prefer more soft control over things - but within the system - the number of planes is "right." Also - I like player options. Just because the Russian's didn't upgrade does not mean they could not have done - and since the number of planes available is limited - players merely decide the allocation. But it isn't by service - or if it is - it is up to the player - not imposed by me. I cannot force a player to upgrade one service but not another. All I can do is make the numbers right and turn the players loose. In a game a player has a different priority - he is a theater boss - and he faces a non-historical Japan - he better upgrqde when he can.
If he does not - het gets a big pool - I guess. But it is still possible for you to not upgrade if you don't want to do that. Power to the players sort of thing. If YOU think the Russians would not upgrade - the primary RHS House Rule says - don't do it.

Now if you think I have the numbers wrong - tell me what they should be. The problem is - they have to be right on the average - we cannot make them greater later - well not unless we convert a second plane type over at a later date. We are forced (after ramp up) to accept a single plane per month value.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

ORIGINAL: el cid again
>I would reclassify the I-153 to FB - in WW2 it was used as attack aircraft almost exclusively.

REPLY: Fighter bomers are less effective than either fighters or bombers - and better at nothing apparently (see the manual). Are you sure this is a good idea? WITP terms are wierd - they don't always mean what they seem to say.

Er, no, I'm not sure about the game mechanics. I thought FB had some advantage in strafing? If not, there's no use for the FB class, that's true.

The Il-2 should be reclassified, too. The plane didn't have any dive brakes, so it's not a DB. Usually it did low level strafing attacks. It's hard to fit this plane into the game engine - it's a pity that there is no "attack" class. Maybe it should be a LB, maybe even a FB (escort and CAP would not be allowed by primary house rule, of course).

REPLY: I had the impression it was a dive bomber. Even so, the greatest bombing accuracy comes from glide bombing - a shallow angle dive bombing technique - was it used that way?

Yes, if they bombed, this was a very common profile. But the primary role of the Il-2 was CAS, and bombs were not the most important weapon in this role - very often they didn't even carry bombs. Main weapon were the cannons and rockets (RS-82, RS-132, M-13, BRS-82, BRS-132). In the late war they frequently used PTAB (anti-tank bomblets, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTAB ), too.

I don't know how to model this with the game engine... Maybe the RS-82 could be a small bombs with very high accuracy? (some date: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-82_rocket ). Btw, the Soviet I-153 could also be armed with 6 or 8 RS-82 instead of 2x50 kg bombs, if this makes them more useful in the ground attack role.

Here we are interested in getting the right accuracy table - and also the AA model - at what altitude does it end up? If it dives into the target low AAA should get a shot - if not - not.

I don't have accuracy tables. The Il-2 usually flew low. Very low. They feared medium AAA (e.g. 40 mm) most - large guns are too slow to engage low flying targets, and small calliber was usually not strong enough.

OK - in spite of the fact WITP does not have rockets for aircraft - RHS does. Further - they work - and work well. However - in the main - they work when set for a strafing run (100 feet) - which also is just about perfect. In RHS both models of IL-2s have 6 rockets - and these have a ROF of only 1 - which somewhat to my surprise works out very well. [The problem is in theory the rockets should "reload" in flight - but they never seem to do that.]

[el cid again]

I have changed the date of initial production of all aircraft that appear after game start by one month - to help air groups appear with the right planes (if players let them do that - if they don't they self penalize by using the planes too soon).

I am ready to upload the update.

Anything else to consider should be reported here - I will wait a day to do so.

[el cid again]

In this update RHSYPO will split the

B5M/B5N into B5M1 and B5N2. The former has more range but isn't a carrier plane. Both historically had the same code name = Kate.

Ki-30/32 into Ki-30 and Ki-32. The former is faster for cruising - and has less endurance. They get their historical code names of Mary and Ann.

This led to the discovery that the Ki-30/32 had the wrong endurance - so the new system has

Ki-30 transfer range 22 extended range 7 normal range 5
Ki-32 transfer range 18 extended range 6 normal range 4

in YPO

and the combined unit will use the Ki-30 values in all other scenarios.

I also split the B7N into torpedo and dive bomber variations. This is a return to CHS practice.

[el cid again]

Air Group Slot 304 should have designation A (vice B) at the start of its name and should upgrade to 26 (based on surviving airframe). In YPO this unit will start with the B5M1.

[el cid again]

Ki-49 II in its Q configuration (complete with MAD gear, radar and DC) is added to YPO. It is already in EOS family scenarios - but not before in historical ones.

[el cid again]

The mideast units having been removed from RHS Level 7 - we will replace the combined Vincent/Vildebeeste with
the Vildebeest - the spelling change having been made official before the war began - and all planes in theater being the one model (in Level 7 - used to be we had Vincents at Aden - but now it is a meta base with no defense units immune to attack).

We have renamed the aircraft Vincent III - because 193 were build - vice only 18 Mk IV - and revised performance data accordingly. Max speed is 143. ROC is 630. Endurance is 785. This increases transfer range by 1 to 22 - no effect on other ranges. Guns revised to one Vickers forward, one Lewis aft.

The Free French Naval Air Detachment at Tahiti - formerly modeled on Vildebeste - is now modeled in T IVa - which is closer in range and perfect in type (seaplane). Bomb load is now exactly 150 kg (perfect). Guns are revised to include 1 forward, 2 side and 1 rear Vickers MG.

In YPO only the C.A.M.S 55.10 described above appears as an actual type: 134 mph max 94 mph cruise 811 minutes endurance 7 durability 5 maneuverability patrol type 551 max load 330 normal load 220 extended load guns as above. Range = 21 transfer, 7 extended 5 normal. Art pointer set to Walrus.

[el cid again]

The Boeing 314A Clipper - which is in all RHS scenarios as an unarmed (PANAM manned) transport aircraft (two detachments) - but which is represented by a Coronado (without weapons) - is added to YPO in its own right.

Full speed 193 mph
Cruise speed 183 mph
Maneuverability 10
Durability 17
Endurance 1440 [This is the maximum allowed in WITP = 12 hours - and does NOT yield the correct range - so we have given the plane its 12 hour range with maximum load = 84 passengers = 18480 pounds).
Range in WITP terms 73 hexes transfer = 24 extended = 18 normal = 36 transport.
No weapons.
Operational ceiling 15680 (= service ceiling of 19600)
ROC (this is very hard to find) 565 fpm.
Empty Equippes weight 50268 lbs
Max weight 82500 lbs in military service (apparently Boeing once flew it at 84000 pounds setting a lift record).
Ranges varied from 3500 to 4200 miles depending on payload and headwinds - the aircraft being specified to carry its normal load into a 30 knot headwind dor 2400 miles.
Lacking the ability to change the filmstrip - the Empire Flying Boat art is pointed at.

[Buck Beach]

Sid, I guess here is as good as any place to ask a question.  While trying to checkout why Japanese capture bases are not attracting A/C support units, I discovered there is a Japanese seven ship cargo TF#99  at Taan and headed for Singora, Malaya.  It is not loaded and deliveries nothing to its destination.   This is in the last RHSCAIO and CVO and goes back numerous previous updates.
Is there a reason for this? 

[el cid again]

The F-2 - a recon variation of B-18 - is added to YPO -
its only significant difference from an unarmed B-18 is its range: 30 transfer, 10 extended, 7 normal -
and being classified as a recon plane - it forces players to use recon plane missions.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Sid, I guess here is as good as any place to ask a question.  While trying to checkout why Japanese capture bases are not attracting A/C support units, I discovered there is a Japanese seven ship cargo TF#99  at Taan and headed for Singora, Malaya.  It is not loaded and deliveries nothing to its destination.   This is in the last RHSCAIO and CVO and goes back numerous previous updates.
Is there a reason for this? 

I don't know. Some land unit is not loading as intended. It is possible the unit is in the wrong location to load. The convoy can be loaded manually or it can be disbanded.

It is not used in EOS family scenarios - except the slot is used in MEBO.

I cannot find a unit assigned to it. I deleted the TF in CVO and BBO family scenarios.

[herwin]

You're enjoying yourself far too much making RHSYPO maximally realistic! I suspect it has to do with having the room to do what you've always wanted to do.[:)]

[el cid again]

I forced myself to stop adding planes to YPO - for the moment - so I can get back to testing - and to issue the update - which has things that should be in new game starts. We will add more whenever something needing updateing occurs.

Yes - these planes would always have been present if we had the slots for them. Along with a host of others.