Please explain AAW range rings

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incredibletwo
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Please explain AAW range rings

Post by incredibletwo »

Hi,
I need someone to explain to me how AAW range rings work. I always thought that they represented the maximum range at which the longest-ranged AA weapon could be launched/fired. For example, if the range of the weapon was 50nm, then once the target reached the range ring at 50nm you could fire. I just played a scenario where I couldn't fire until the target aircraft were well within half the rane of the longest-ranged AA weapon. They volley-fired a bunch of AA missiles, resulting in the loss of my aircraft. I had AMRAAM's but their range advantage was completely negated by....what? There was no ECM or anything else to affect the performance of either the launching aircraft or the weapons. The launching aircraft's radar had more than enough range to input the required information to the missile.
SO, can someone please explain what happened?

Thanks in advance.


P.S. I just had something really strange happen. Check out the pic. The range ring around my ship shows the maximum range of my AA weapons, but as you can see, those missiles are going well beyond the call of duty!

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hermanhum
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Post by hermanhum »

The game engine tries to calculate a 'no-escape envelope' for your tracking weapons (i.e. torpedoes and missiles)

If you are approaching at high velocity and your target is also moving at a high rate towards you, you need to get much closer than if your target was stationary (i.e. a helo). If you are chasing a target and both of you are running at high speed, then you need to get VERY close before your weapons will fire.

In general, if your target is approaching you and going relatively slowly, then your weapons will more likely launch closer to the maximum range of the weapon circle.
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Post by hermanhum »

ORIGINAL: incredibletwo

P.S. I just had something really strange happen. Check out the pic. The range ring around my ship shows the maximum range of my AA weapons, but as you can see, those missiles are going well beyond the call of duty!

Image
This is a unique feature of Harpoon3 and ANW. The Database can set a range for a weapon, but the database can also give the weapon fuel for additional range.

The editor might allow the weapon to fire at 50nm, but give it fuel for 60nm. That way, we weapon has a bit of search or carry-through capability. This is a very powerful tool of the DB editor who tries to ensure that a player can't simply escape a weapon by turning and running the other direction when launch is detected.
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RE: Harpoon

Post by incredibletwo »

Thanks for your answers mate. In reference to my first post, can the "no escape envelope" be turned off or adjusted?
I used to play Harpoon 2 on DOS, using the disks, and in that version you could fire at maximum range.
Also, how do I stop ships from firing at incoming missiles? I have "Weapons Free" turned off but when the incoming missiles hit the range circle the ship/s open up.
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hermanhum
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Post by hermanhum »

ORIGINAL: incredibletwo

In reference to my first post, can the "no escape envelope" be turned off or adjusted?
I used to play Harpoon 2 on DOS, using the disks, and in that version you could fire at maximum range.
Also, how do I stop ships from firing at incoming missiles? I have "Weapons Free" turned off but when the incoming missiles hit the range circle the ship/s open up.
The no-escape envelope cannot be "adjusted" by the player. He can attempt to influence it, though. Flying higher and faster can often increase the maximum engagement range.

In H2, the database had the Fuel range and the Max range set at the same value. i.e. Max range for torps might be 50nm with fuel for exactly 50nm. The problem with this situation was that the AI would fire the torps as soon as possible (50nm in some cases). The player would simply turn around and walk, crawl, or cruise out of range and the weapons would run out of gas. Some databases still use this setting for their weapons. The ODb and ANW DB use these settings. You can test them out and see if you prefer them any better.

You cannot stop ships from firing. This is the new 'feature' introduced by ANW. I does not matter if you have Weapons Tight or not. The game will ignore it and just fire when it damned well pleases. We really aren't playing, IMO. We just move units around until the AI decides to take over. "Fun", eh? [;)]
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RE: Harpoon

Post by incredibletwo »

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

You cannot stop ships from firing. This is the new 'feature' introduced by ANW. I does not matter if you have Weapons Tight or not. The game will ignore it and just fire when it damned well pleases. We really aren't playing, IMO. We just move units around until the AI decides to take over. "Fun", eh? [;)]

This needs to be changed. It wastes ammo (I like to fire 1 missile per incoming weapon/plane) and definitely takes the fun factor out of the game. Also, why have the option of weapons tight/free? Kinda contradictory.
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hermanhum
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Post by hermanhum »

ORIGINAL: incredibletwo

This needs to be changed. It wastes ammo (I like to fire 1 missile per incoming weapon/plane) and definitely takes the fun factor out of the game. Also, why have the option of weapons tight/free? Kinda contradictory.
You're preaching to the choir. [&o]

Everyone else has already tried to convince AGSI of their folly to no avail. It's your turn now... [:D]

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread. ... to-defense
http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread. ... to-defense
incredibletwo
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RE: Harpoon

Post by incredibletwo »

I just read the posts in those links that you posted.
The point isn't about a platform being able to defend itself or not, the point is about WHO does the defending, and playability. This isn't the Pro version we're talking about. Maybe the naval colleges etc like/want/need this "feature", but for us it isn't required. I personally control almost every engagement. When it comes to my ships, EVERY engagement, be it offensive or defensive.
VCDH found it amusing that people were "complaining" about the auto-defence "feature" but that wasn't really a satisfactory response to his customers. We are, afterall, putting bread on his table so a little consideration on his part would have made better reading.
Anyway, I hope this "feature" is removed in the next release.
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RE: Harpoon

Post by rsharp@advancedgamin »

Howdy,

I'll add some detail to a few things and also take the opportunity to explain some plans for future development.

First, to the original topic,

Attack Range Display
General weapon range rings work as you expect. They display the maximum range of a platform's weapons versus general types of targets. Other considerations are if the mount is ready (not broke or reloading), if munitions are available, and if illumination is required then the range is limited by the sensor horizon.

That said, the feature is a guide for the user. It's a fairly accurate guide but does not consider all the requirements considered at the time of the actual attack.

No-Escape Envelope
The no-escape envelope is a limitation for attacks on air targets created by the AI. One of the first fixes in 3.9.4 was to remove this limitation for user ordered attacks. That bug would lead to the game engine canceling user ordered attacks without informing them of doing so. I would like to introduce a separate no-escape envelope for AI attacks with torpedos but that's another thread.

Micromanagement and auto-defen(c|s)e
Within reason, the user should be allowed to play the game how they like. I'm not going to change the default behavior of the game because that gets us back where we started with a different group of people unhappy. What I'm going to do is the following:

Allow the user to configure the AI response. The user will be able to set some parameters to define how the game will design attacks. i.e. How many attacks to assign to an incoming missile.
Introduce new ROE sets. Weapons Really Free and Weapons Really Tight will be added to the current ROE sets of Weapons Tight and Weapons Free. Weapons Really Tight will only engage targets ordered by the player.
Allow the user to configure the default ROE.

I cannot tell you the timing of the changes because I do not know. The earliest point they would be included would be 3.10, the planned release after 3.9.4.

Thanks,
Russell
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incredibletwo
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RE: Harpoon

Post by incredibletwo »

Hi Russell,
Thanks for a quick and detailed response. The changes you outlined sound great, and I think 99% of users will be more than happy with them.
I just reloaded 3.9.4 and noticed that you can fire at the maximum range of the weapon if everything else is correct, so that's awesome! This small tweak makes the game much more playable, I think.
 
Thanks for everything. I'm looking forward to 3.10!
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RE: Harpoon

Post by FreekS »


Micromanagement and auto-defen(c|s)e
Within reason, the user should be allowed to play the game how they like. I'm not going to change the default behavior of the game because that gets us back where we started with a different group of people unhappy. What I'm going to do is the following:

Allow the user to configure the AI response. The user will be able to set some parameters to define how the game will design attacks. i.e. How many attacks to assign to an incoming missile.
Introduce new ROE sets. Weapons Really Free and Weapons Really Tight will be added to the current ROE sets of Weapons Tight and Weapons Free. Weapons Really Tight will only engage targets ordered by the player.
Allow the user to configure the default ROE.

I cannot tell you the timing of the changes because I do not know. The earliest point they would be included would be 3.10, the planned release after 3.9.4.

Thanks,

Russell,

The 3.6 AI had a more sophisticated 'Weapon Tight' behaviour than most people think.

Namely the Players units would defend themselves against incoming missiles (so ships would fire SAM at incoming SSM) but it would NOT fire on SSMs aimed at other ships. This ensured that ships would defend themselves, but avoided lots of missiles fired at 'crossing targets' with poor Pk.
I was therefore quite safe to play constantly with Weapons Tight. I would have the advantage of self defense plus minimised expenditure of SAMs, no automatic firing on unarmed or low-threat targets in Weapons Tight mode, and I could close helo's or planes and kille them with sidewinder or guns and save my long range AMRAAM, for example. When things got hot it was little trouble to switch to Weapons Free and all other ships in my Task Force would start firing.

I'm not sure which group of people was unhappy with this bahaviour, but I submit that the discussion was probably not based on the true facts; there were statements made like 'of course you want your units to defend themselves' probably not realising that they did!

So when considering the new Weapons Tight/Weapons Free functionality; I'd request that this sophisticated Weapon Tight But Maintain Real Self-Defense is considered.
I have nothing against making this new Weapon Tight/Weapon Free behaviour configurable; but lets realise that the more configurable options; the more likely it is that players have them set up in ways that scen designers did not foresee. So the fewer options the better.

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Post by hermanhum »

ORIGINAL: incredibletwo

The point isn't about a platform being able to defend itself or not, the point is about WHO does the defending, and playability. This isn't the Pro version we're talking about. Maybe the naval colleges etc like/want/need this "feature", but for us it isn't required. I personally control almost every engagement. When it comes to my ships, EVERY engagement, be it offensive or defensive.
VCDH found it amusing that people were "complaining" about the auto-defence "feature" but that wasn't really a satisfactory response to his customers. We are, after all, putting bread on his table so a little consideration on his part would have made better reading.
I think that you play your game like the majority of Harpoon owners - personal control. I also think that you have hit the nail on the head. The idea probably came about from a senior AGSI staff member (you probably already guessed his name) and got implemented without knowing all the disasterous side-effects. Now that it is in the game, it seems as though its removal would somehow be a 'loss of face' for him so AGSI jumps through all kinds of hoops to try and make the situation work. Instead, every change just complicates the matter and creates more problems.

Take for example some of these new *.OPT files.

MissionDefaultWeaponsFree370.opt
MissionTransitAggressive.opt
MissionPatrolAggressive.opt

In general, they seem to be point towards reducing the WeaponsTight problems instead of just taking it out and fixing the entire situation. Instead of taking one right turn in their car, AGSI seems to want to take 3 (or 7) left turns in hopes of achieving the same results. What a waste of time. And the problem remains unfixed. [:(]

In short, we want to play the game. Not have the AI play it for us. [:@]
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Post by rsharp@advancedgamin »

Herman,

That's 90% guess work and just plain wrong. Who's name are you trying to imply?

You should notice that I also plan introduce a Weapons Really Free. Those options will be rolled up into that ROE. Weapons Really Tight will allow users to micro manage. Being able to configure these ROEs on a per mission basis or just the mission default will allow those unhappy with the options to make their own.

Also missed is if changing the ROE is what caused this problem then changing it again will not fix it. There is no rewind button in this work.

Thanks for the feedback.
Russell
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Post by hermanhum »

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

You should notice that I also plan introduce a Weapons Really Free. Those options will be rolled up into that ROE. Weapons Really Tight will allow users to micro manage. Being able to configure these ROEs on a per mission basis or just the mission default will allow those unhappy with the options to make their own.
Yup. Saw that in the list of planned changes. Unfortunately, AGSI's track record for implementation of new features and functions is far from stellar. If in doubt, a full and complete list can be provided upon request.

IF it works as claimed, then it might solve the situation. That's a pretty big if...
ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

Also missed is if changing the ROE is what caused this problem then changing it again will not fix it. There is no rewind button in this work.
That is the point; there wasn't really a problem. This new ROE was the solution in search of a problem that simply did not exist. It certainly sounds like it was resultant from the lack of knowledge of what was already available for self-defence.

In H3, units already defended themselves with point-defence weaponry and full control could easily be given to the AI at the flick of a switch. It was that simple. It was that clear. It was that functional. [:(]
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Post by rsharp@advancedgamin »

So whose name were you implying?

Thanks,
Russell
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Post by hermanhum »

As if it matters...

The only real matter should be that this problem continues to fester and exist -- three years after the initial release of ANW.

But I think that the fellow who most vehemently and stridently tried to defend this lame-brained scheme is the likely culprit.  Even a relative newcomer (or returning veteran like incredibletwo) to the scene could arrive at the same conclusion.  Regardless, it is still an AGSI problem.
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RE: Harpoon

Post by rsharp@advancedgamin »

It matters. I wanted to clear this up first because you are getting personal and hiding it behind vague speculations. Also, you are wrong.

There are many technical things we can speculate on. Let's reserve the forum for that.

Thanks,
Russell
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Post by hermanhum »

ORIGINAL: FreekS

I'm not sure which group of people was unhappy with this bahaviour, but I submit that the discussion was probably not based on the true facts; there were statements made like 'of course you want your units to defend themselves' probably not realising that they did!
Had an open forum been used to discuss this Weapons Free nonsense, you would have been told right away by real players that this was an extremely bad idea. Instead, AGSI used one of it's 'secret/protected' fora. Now, you think that you're stuck with it. That's just not true.`

A two-foot hole does not necessarily make a grave... unless you keep digging it.
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RE: Harpoon

Post by rsharp@advancedgamin »

Freek,

Thanks for the details. I'll keep a copy of this for consideration in the planned changes.
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RE: Harpoon

Post by FransKoenz »

Here are my 2-cents on this discussion.

I just want control my own assets during the game at all time. Weapons tight is weapons tight as long as I decide to keep it that way. One of things I really hate is when at game start my [USN] units launching Tomahawks at hostile [red coloured] enemy land based units. These launches are automated and ruining imho the game fun, especially when the player has other plans with these missiles. This is just 1 example.

When anything is getting automated, the player's only option is to watch the AI playing the game instead of the player. Great fun! [:(]

Greetings,
Frans [aka Taitennek]


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