Open Data Model

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Rick
or put in a checksum of some kind to verify that the game data hasn't changed.

That may be in place now. If PBEM games don't run after a number of turns it may be people fiddling with the data.

[benpark]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

So far we are good to go. Now, I'm playing Ben Park but he likes his own data file better than yours Mobius....I don't know why he just does...and he doesn't use the one I sent. BP's data file has the T-26S as being more effective than yours and my PzIII's get banged up worse than the other German gamers. I come in last in the tournament.........which could happen to me in real life without a data base issue.....[X(]

After the round is over BP admits he used his own data file. The entire tournament is compromised.

Realize, of course, that this is just an example. I'm using the three of us as the players because we have discussed this issue at length. Please, don't anybody think that, I feel for a moment, BenPark would intentionally do anything like I just described.

[&:]

"Player X" and "Player Y" would have worked just fine.[:-] Of course I wouldn't cheat, because I don't play MP!

Why "lock" anything due to hypothetical situations, as most of us playing the game here are modding it?

Here's a hypothetical that might make better sense though- In a future expansion there IS a locked part of the next game's install that runs MP. This of course makes the game a large install. SP remains tinkerable to the users. MP is, but the modder must encrypt the mod. The two players that wish to use a given mod run a verified installer (from online) that comes with the game that installs the "mod pack" that is also a locked item. Obviously this requires work on the coders side, as well as more work for the modder to create a "set".

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: benpark

Why "lock" anything due to hypothetical situations, as most of us playing the game here are modding it?

Because at some point we won't be in hypothetical if PC becomes wildly popular. Fix the issues now, not later, and start to get some mileage from the system to be played as it is now.

Here's a hypothetical that might make better sense though- In a future expansion there IS a locked part of the next game's install that runs MP. This of course makes the game a large install. SP remains tinkerable to the users. MP is, but the modder must encrypt the mod. The two players that wish to use a given mod run a verified installer (from online) that comes with the game that installs the "mod pack" that is also a locked item. Obviously this requires work on the coders side, as well as more work for the modder to create a "set".

Each of you has a specific name for your data files I'm thinking.

This could be as simple as when the game goes and checks for version compatibility, it checks for data file compatibility as well.

Would that be hard to implement? I would that would be easy. Then no worries about having to do anything special with the mods. All that would have to be done is make sure the mod set name is unique.

Good Hunting.

MR

[RyanCrierie]

I think what we need to do as a community is get together and release coherent mod packs -- e.g. we get together a group called either Panzerwerke or Red October and they compile all the good mods together and release them as a mega-mod pack; similar to how Silent Hunter 3 and 4 coalesced around Real Fleet Boat/Real U-Boat/Grey Wolves/Trigger Maru, etc.

[spellir74]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
After the round is over BP admits he used his own data file. The entire tournament is compromised.

If this becomes a problem then the data should be gathered by the game and sent with the first turn setup phase to the other player. This stays with the game all along. Then even if each player's local game was updated by a PCK update the PBEM game could go on using the old data.

I don't know how that is done but that is a good solution, given that modder types like the data open for 'fixes' (eg wrong stock gun etc) and the ability to add easy additions (eg T-26 vs Buzzard) but we don't want cheating (especially if things grow into real competitions) .

I in particular want a solution to the "cheater potential" problem, since I don't want to be denounced ...being as I will always win. [8D]

ORIGINAL: Mobius
What happens now if there is some patch that updates the game's data in the middle of a tornament? Players are stuck until the end of the tournament running the old software?

[spellir74]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Rick
or put in a checksum of some kind to verify that the game data hasn't changed.

That may be in place now. If PBEM games don't run after a number of turns it may be people fiddling with the data.

I've had issues with enemy floating squads. But I assumed --and was told-- that was 'out of sync turn' issues.

Would a simple gun value change or speed change etc in an XML create noticable bugs?

Hopefully the answer is yes, so one will know by the bugginess that occurs that funny-business is afoot. But how will one know if it was innocent out of turn issues or nefarious value changes.

[spellir74]

Do you have info on this PzC ladder? (So I don't have to google-gamble it.)

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Why wasn't I asked?...

[Erik Rutins]

Just FYI, right now if people play a PBEM and they actually have different data (i.e. different penetration or accuracy values for a gun) then the first time that data comes into use, the PBEM will crash and not continue. It's not "elegant" at all, but it does mean that you can't monkey around with the data on one side only and get any real advantage. In the long-run, we definitely need some kind of data validation system and ideally one that can allow for mods and keep a separate version of the "stock" files as an option for compatibility.

Regards,

- Erik

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just FYI, right now if people play a PBEM and they actually have different data (i.e. different penetration or accuracy values for a gun) then the first time that data comes into use, the PBEM will crash and not continue. It's not "elegant" at all, but it does mean that you can't monkey around with the data on one side only and get any real advantage. In the long-run, we definitely need some kind of data validation system and ideally one that can allow for mods and keep a separate version of the "stock" files as an option for compatibility.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik,

If that's the case then it is protected against cheating or to be more positive, it's prtoected agasint inadvertantly changing unit values during a PBEM. It seems like that is really all that's needed. Perhaps if anyone organzies a tournament, they just need to make sure all players know that.

Just to be clear, let me ask, does this mean that during a PBEM game you don't want to update your unit data for either side, for any unit currently used in game?

Thanks!
Rick

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: spellir74

Do you have info on this PzC ladder? (So I don't have to google-gamble it.)

-----------
Why wasn't I asked?...

WaW Panzer Command Ladder

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just FYI, right now if people play a PBEM and they actually have different data (i.e. different penetration or accuracy values for a gun) then the first time that data comes into use, the PBEM will crash and not continue. It's not "elegant" at all, but it does mean that you can't monkey around with the data on one side only and get any real advantage. In the long-run, we definitely need some kind of data validation system and ideally one that can allow for mods and keep a separate version of the "stock" files as an option for compatibility.

Regards,

- Erik

So, if I understand this right....you send me your setup and your first file.

I then load the game and see what it is I've got. Since I have to have the scenario to load it as well I can also load up the game and look and see what you have.

Once I see what both sides have I can modify my game data file. Load the game, do my opening turn file and send it back to you. As long as I use my modified game file the entire game, without changing it again, I'm okay.

Does that describe what is possible for a tournament game at the moment?

Good Hunting.

MR

[spellir74]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: spellir74

Do you have info on this PzC ladder? (So I don't have to google-gamble it.)

-----------
Why wasn't I asked?...

WaW Panzer Command Ladder

Good Hunting.

MR

Thanks.

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Regarding your next post...

Boy you have a sneaky mind. [:)] Good eye though, if you're right.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I then load the game and see what it is I've got. Since I have to have the scenario to load it as well I can also load up the game and look and see what you have.

Once I see what both sides have I can modify my game data file. Load the game, do my opening turn file and send it back to you. As long as I use my modified game file the entire game, without changing it again, I'm okay.

If you modify the data so that it is different than your opponent's data I'm pretty sure the turn won't process.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I then load the game and see what it is I've got. Since I have to have the scenario to load it as well I can also load up the game and look and see what you have.

Once I see what both sides have I can modify my game data file. Load the game, do my opening turn file and send it back to you. As long as I use my modified game file the entire game, without changing it again, I'm okay.

If you modify the data so that it is different than your opponent's data I'm pretty sure the turn won't process.

If that's right we're good to go.

At present the PBEM system has an issue. It stops games where you have to go back a game file set or two to get the game to start again. Once you do it will play through. I don't think that has anything to do with changed game files. If it does why would it let me play it out after I go back a couple of files?

Good Hunting.

MR