Round two - DING YH v TS

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Does lesson 1 apply to atoll assaults as well? If the answer is yes then the practical limit for invasion forces would be 1 reinforced regiment?

In focused play testing we've tried both reinforced regiments and full divisions in attacking tiny islands - "atolls". Both work. The limited amount of time needed to take an island (2-3 days usually) results in penalties that can be absorbed by the attackers provided lots of supply is brought.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

The limited amount of time needed to take an island (2-3 days usually) results in penalties that can be absorbed by the attackers provided lots of supply is brought.

That sounds pretty right, BTW. I'm not an expert, but it has the right feel to it.

[Andy Mac]

Yuh just dont try it without
 
1. Air Superiority
2. Naval Superiority
3. Amphibs to speed your unload rate
 
Allied players who try smash and grabs on atolls ....may...be able to take them - holding them thats a different kettle of fish - without 1 and 2 its dammed hard.
 
Defending atolls is almost nothing to do with land power and everything to do with air and naval power

[Andy Mac]

You really really really really don't want a SAG getting in amongst LST's at anchor unloading they will get crucified the escorts will help but there is a limit

[traskott]

So if you want to defend Midway as an allied in early 1942, putting 24th US division there without plenty air cover and/or carriers will result in a lot of joes dead ? 

[Yamato hugger]

Putting a division on Midway will eat so many supplies so fast you wont be able to supply it fast enough. Midway has a stacking limit of 6,000 which is about a regiment. Anything beyond that is basically cannon fodder.

[Iridium]

In other words, yes, lots of dead Joes. Stacking limits seem to make an interesting situation on deciding what appropriate combat/support ratios are needed at these islands now.

Do I want a base with mainly air support on it and barely any other types of troops or do I want the island to actually stand up to an attack for a few days?

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Does lesson 1 apply to atoll assaults as well? If the answer is yes then the practical limit for invasion forces would be 1 reinforced regiment?

In this, I wasnt talking about the initial wave. Seems the first wave (or first day of landings if you will) all pretty much dump everything. Its the follow-ups I was talking about.

[bradfordkay]

"One thing to note about tenders in AE: you need supplies on the tender for it to function"
 
How do you put supplies on an AD?

[Mike Solli]

Tenders have a cargo capacity.  I saw a screen of one somewhere on one of these pages some time ago and asked why they had a cargo capacity.

[Don Bowen]

Ammo ships and tenders have a cargo capacity. It indicates ability to rearm in the same way a port capacity does. Big tenders/ammo ships can rearm big ships - little ones can't.

Supply cargo on tenders and ammo ships works just like supply at ports. It is, in affect, ammunition on board and available for issuing to ships needing rearming. They can load (supply=ammo) from ports just like any other ship.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Ammo ships and tenders have a cargo capacity. It indicates ability to rearm in the same way a port capacity does. Big tenders/ammo ships can rearm big ships - little ones can't.

Thanks Don. Is there any way to know what size a ship a specific tender can rearm?

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Ammo ships and tenders have a cargo capacity. It indicates ability to rearm in the same way a port capacity does. Big tenders/ammo ships can rearm big ships - little ones can't.

Thanks Don. Is there any way to know what size a ship a specific tender can rearm?

Rearm cost is actually by individual device (i.e. weapon), not ship type. A BB that only needs MG ammo can rearm just about anywhere, etc.

There will be a table in the manual with representative costs and required rearm ports (thanks to JWE). I think all the calculations for rearm cost calculation are in there too.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

There will be a table in the manual with representative costs and required rearm ports (thanks to JWE). I think all the calculations for rearm cost calculation are in there too.

Matrix should laminate this chart and include it separate in the box. With port size / ship cap on the back [:D]

Frankly, once its finalized, thats exactly what I plan to do.

[Elladan]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Putting a division on Midway will eat so many supplies so fast you wont be able to supply it fast enough. Midway has a stacking limit of 6,000 which is about a regiment. Anything beyond that is basically cannon fodder.

So in this theoretical situation in which I would have 1 division on Midway and no other troops there, how many supplies per month would I need to keep it fully supplied? Just to see things in the right perspective.

[Andy Mac]

A full strength US Inf Div requires 1,100 tonnes per month or c 39 tonnes per day
 
In combat mode and under attack that requirement doubles so 80 tonnes per day and 2,200 per month
 
A Div has c 13,000 men so roughly 220%
 
For every 10% overstacked supply requirement goes up an additional 20% for every unit on the atoll.
 
So base Supply 1,100
Penalty Supply 22 - 10 x 20% i.e. 240% supply penalty
 
So that Div now requires 340% of normal supply or about 3,800 per month
 
In combat that means it needs 7,600 per month actually thats a lot.....
 
A div in all honesty is just about liveable with on an atoll its tight and cramped but just about doable....
 
Now 2 Divs = 26,000 men thats 440% overstacked ?
 
So thats 44 - 10 x 20% or 680% supply penalty
 
So thats 1,100 x 2 Div = 2,200 x 680% = c 14,000 suply per month or 28,000 in combat mode.
 
On attack I never bring more than a Div on defence I will run to about 20 or 30% overstacked if I must but I dont like doing it.
 
Andy
 

[Elladan]

Thanks Andy, It clears a lot. I pressume the actual force allotment will depend much on particular situation in the game. Things will really get more interesting in AE

[traskott]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Putting a division on Midway will eat so many supplies so fast you wont be able to supply it fast enough. Midway has a stacking limit of 6,000 which is about a regiment. Anything beyond that is basically cannon fodder.

Thank you. I really love this feature. No more "stacks of the death over the Pacific" !! [&o][&o]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Thanks Andy, It clears a lot. I pressume the actual force allotment will depend much on particular situation in the game. Things will really get more interesting in AE

IMO it will get more realistic (as it should be) but in the case of atolls not more interesting as atolls are far more easy to take in AE than in WITP from what I´ve read so far. In WITP you were never really sure about what to do with the atolls as you could easily run into 50.000 defenders behing level 9 forts which lead to D-day like invasions against some Pacific atolls. In AE you bring 5 divs, land one or two, if you don´t take it throw another one into the fight and pick up the other two. With the stacking limit it makes it far more easy to estimate what you will need to take the place.

More realistic but not more interesting for the game play, at least not for me. That´s no critiscm, I always thought stacking limits are a must as it´s just too unrealistic if you encounter 75.000 soldiers on Canton Island.

[Andy Mac]

Yeah but this goes both ways.
 
If the allies over stretch and cannot maintain Air or Naval Supremecy you could lose a lot of LCU's
 
i.e. if the Allies lets say decide to sieze Kwajalein via coup de main in the early phase of the game its probabbly easier for them to do so now if they commit enough resources.
 
BUT can they hold it ?
 
The Japanese can bring in KB/Mrs Betty regain air supremacy and naval supremacy and the allies cannot stack multi divs to ensure they hold the atoll so suddenly the japanese reinvade with full support because they only lost 6,000 men on the atoll in the first place so they have force to spare back at the Marianas to retake it.
 
The 6,000 limit makes both sides more carefull...
 
Against PZB I staged a mutli corps invasion from Marcus and Wake that would be total lunacy now
 
The Marianas are vital now, so is Iwo Jima so is Tarawa
 
Nothing else in the Central Pacific can take a sizeable garrison until you get to Fiji/New Cal or Pearl.
 
What I am saying is individual atolls are unimportant UNLESS you have the air and sea power to protect them