Ecco....

[Korgmeister]

I think I have your answer to that, Thogrim

[Thorgrim]

*Everybody* works to protect their homes, they just do it in different ways. And the concept of "protecting home" might be regarded as something else by those who are the targets of said "protection".

[rosary]

The reasons given by the U.S. media for the bombing of the wedding was that some people in the wedding were shooting their weapons in the air. [which I thought was stupid regardless]. By firing their weapons in the air they became a target and were subsequently bombed.

[Thorgrim]

They were in *their* country, celebrating *their* wedding, according to *their* ways. Not knowing a people's ways is not an excuse, just like not knowing the letter of the law isn't when you break it.

[rosary]

I'm just informing those not in the U.S. what we are being told. I'm not saying that I believe the media.

[Megrez]

About this problem I think we should divide it into two different and distinct parts.

1) It's to be hoped that, if it's necessary to bomb, the bombing has to be more precise, to avoid to strike innocent civilians.
2) About the fact that in Afghanistan is a tradition to shoot the weapons in the air for a wedding.... well it's not really a tradition. In Afghanistan the massive diffusion of firearms started during second world war, and it achieved its peak during the war against russian invasion.
So the use of weapons during weddings is something quite recent in Afghanistan.
Moreover I think that everyone could express his point of wiew about traditions, also deploring them when they are idiot (for example like the african forced female infibulation).
If someone does something wrong to follow a tradition he's not justified.
And I think that to shot in air with guns or machine-guns during a wedding is "very" idiot also if it is a way to express joy.
Affirming this I don't want to justify the error that was incontrovertibly made by the people who bombed during the wedding.

Megrez

[Megrez]

I guess I should mention that the EMP has a chance to do light damage vs. systems. I do not think it affects pilots regardless of race. I realize there is an argument that this device could possibly damage an android or cyborg pilot but it doesn't. I prefer to listen to arguments about why something like this wouldn't affect these races. For one thing, I hate instant kill weapons. They screw up the gameplay.

This is my idea:
The cockpit is insulated with a special anti-electromagnetic composite made with graphite.
This composite is too much expensive, and it's not useful to cover the entire titan with it, also because to do that you should reduce the thickness of the armour which is more useful to protect the titan from the other kinds of weapons.
So, with only the cockpit insulated, the joks are immune to the EMP pulser (also if they're cyborgs or androids), but the titan is not.
That special insulation doesn't work with neutron blaster 'cause that weapon is designed specially with the purpose to "pierce" it, and it doesn't work also with the radiations due to engines' explosions ('cause they're too much powerful).

Megrez

[Megrez]

In this week I tried to reflect upon my idea: I wanted to understand what is so wrong with it.
And I figured out 2 principal reasons... but they don't deals with the validity of nanotechnology, or with presumed distortions to the gameplay...
I will try to explain them... but, before that, I have to reject some inaccuracies that someone blamed me for.

One thing that people have neglected to mention in their 'F-18' example is that they've left out the hard part: Getting a lock on the enemy in the first place.

To get a lock on the enemy, you have to be able to calculate and anticipate their movements on the fly, also taking into account hot spots and other variables such as wind etc.

That's why the guided weapons skill is INT/INS based.

That's true... never said anything against that
In this post I wasn't talkin' about locking a target and pointing the weapons.
I was talking about the possibility to activate a weapon through a command sent by radio-link to an infected neural-bridge device.
Iceman was sayin' that it's not possible. On the contrary I affirm that, theoretically, it's possible to do that.
In the other post (Sorry for the delay) I explained how my weapon should work, and something that concerns locking the target and pointing the weapons.
But probably it's better if I summarize another time those concepts.

So this is my idea about NWM vector (NWM = NanoWare Machines).
The NWM vector is a very big missile. It hasn't got an explosive warhead, but it makes a "light" damage when it impacts the target.
It should be 4 or 5 damage-points.
This missile transports the nanos (nanomachines.... small robots built with nanotechnology): so, I was thinking about a "cruise"-class (or "tomahawk"-class) missile.
I think that SRM, LRM, NM and also GM are smaller than this type of missile (I think to them as "maverick"-class or "hellfire"-class missiles); but they have an explosive war-head so they make some points of damage.
A "cruise"-class missile filled with an explosive war-head would produce an higher damage (like an autocannon 20 I think).
But the NWM-vector hasn't got a warhead. So it cannot produces such an high damage. But it's a big missile and when it impacts its target it produces a sort of light damage (I thought like a punch of a light or medium titan).
Maybe it's not a "light" damage if you compare it to the damages produced by other types of missiles in ToS, but you have to admit that a "cruise"-class missile with an explosive war-head should make more than 4-5 points of damage.
When the NW-missile strikes the target, it releases a multitude of nanos on it.
Apart the sudden damage (4 or 5 damage-points), the nanos penetrate inside the hit titan and attack its electronic systems.
Mostly the neural device, and the battle computer.
To be more understandable from this moment I will call the attacker-titan as TITAN A and the the hit-titan as TITAN B.
The NWM vector's damaging effects could be divided into a sequence of 3 levels:
1) first level: the immediate impact damage (4 or 5 points of damage).
2) second level: after 50/60 game seconds, if the TITAN B is a medium, heavy or assault titan, it could be immobilized if its jock doesn't pass a skill check.
[If TITAN B is a major titan (medium, heavy or assault) it has got a neural bridge device, and probably also a battle-computer. The nanos attack this devices in two ways: 1) in a mechanic-way, damaging "physically" these devices 2) installing virus-softwares on these systems; viruses which deny or stop the neural connection between the TITAN B and its jock.
So, after a certain period of time from the moment in which the TITAN B is hit, the jock of TITAN B is forced to do a skill check: if he/she doesn't pass the skill check all these systems will be infected by nanos; I proposed that the period of time should be very long (for example 50/60 game-seconds), but I accept other suggestions.]
3) third level: after another 20/30 game seconds, if TITAN A is a major titan (medium, heavy, or assault) and its jock has got an high electronic warfare ability ( > or = 70%) and also a good indirect fire ability ( > or = 50%), and if the TITAN B is a major titan too, previously immobilized by the "infection" of nanos, the jock inside TITAN A could gain the control of TITAN B if he/she passes a skill check.
[After TITAN B is infected by nanos, these machines exploit and modify the internal systems of TITAN B (neural bridge device and battle computer) to establish a radio-link with the TITAN A. When this link is active, they substitute the cerebral impulses of TITAN B's jock with the impulses of TITAN A's jock inside the neural-bridge device.
I mean that they make like a radio-link between the TITAN A and TITAN B: while this link is active, the TITAN A's jock controls TITAN B instead of its jock, but only if all the requirements I told before are ok. I proposed an interval of 20/30 game-seconds from the moment the TITAN B is immobilized, but I accept suggestions about this; then the TITAN A's jock will be prompted to a skill check, and, if he/she will pass it, when it will be the turn of TITAN B to attack or to move, that jock will control TITAN B instead of its pilot.]

So there are 4 possible situations:
a) TITAN A is a recon or light titan, and TITAN B is a recon or light titan too: in this case the NW-missile produces only a damage of first level (and maybe also a decrease of probability to hit the locked target for TITAN B, 'cause nanos affect the battle-computer, if there's one inside the titan).
b) TITAN A is a recon or light titan, and TITAN B is a medium, heavy or assault titan: in this case the NW-missile produces a damage of first level, and eventually also a damage of second level.
c) TITAN A is a medium, heavy, or assault titan, and TITAN B is a recon or light titan: in this case the NW-missile produces a damage of first level (and maybe also a decrease of probability to hit the locked target for TITAN B, 'cause nanos affect the battle-computer, if there's one inside the titan).
d) TITAN A is a medium, heavy, or assault titan, and TITAN B is a medium, heavy or assault titan: in this case the NW-missile may produce a damage of first level and of second level, and eventually also of third level.

In the case of a damage of third level, TITAN B will be temporary a member of TITAN A's team.
It's TITAN A's jock the one who controls TITAN B; so no jocks are mind-controlled. TITAN B's jock is still inside TITAN B's cockpit but his/her titan is controlled by someone else.
TITAN A's jock will be able to command movements of TITAN B, and also to lock targets and to point weapons against them. And he/she will be able to activate them. He can do all these these things sending his/her cerebral impulses through the radio link established with the infected neural device.
It's logical that TITAN A's jock probably has got different attributes and abilities from the "owner" of TITAN B, so he/she won't be able to pilot well that model and to use its weapons properly.
Moreover I think it should be added a decreasing-modifier to the probability to hit a titan locked by an infected TITAN B, 'cause TITAN A's jock is piloting TITAN B through radio-link which isn't a very good way to pilot a robot.

So, about the things Korgmeister said:

One thing that people have neglected to mention in their 'F-18' example is that they've left out the hard part: Getting a lock on the enemy in the first place.

To get a lock on the enemy, you have to be able to calculate and anticipate their movements on the fly, also taking into account hot spots and other variables such as wind etc.

That's why the guided weapons skill is INT/INS based.

I can say that my weapon's idea is well balanced.
It won't be simple to use weapons of TITAN B; anyway I think that TITAN A's jock should be able to control in a certain way also TITAN B's weapons.
Someone says that it should be impossible for TITAN A's jock to activate TITAN B's weapons, 'cause they say that, on major titans (medium, heavy, assault), the weapons are still activated by manual controls.

As Iceman says:

Doesn't it strike to you as logical that if a weapon skill's primary attribute is dextrerity or reaction that that weapon is fired manually?

On the contrary I think those attributes are related to the pointing of weapons (and so with the probability to hit the locked enemy), not to the "activation" of weapons. And when TITAN B is infected, it's the jock of TITAN A that points the weapons with his/her abilities.

How do you make the *giant* leap to it being fired by the neural link?! It doesn't say anywhere? It doesn't need to.

That's not true... if it's possible to control movements through the neural bridge (which is a difficoult thing, 'cause it implies a series of complicated commands), why should it be impossible to activate a weapon (which is an easier thing... it's only like a switch with two positions: on and off)?
Moreover, activating a weapon through the neural bridge device would reduce the lag between the moment the jock "thinks to fire" and the moment the jock "press the fire-button", helping him/her to be "the-first-who-shoots".
[About the movie "Firefox", this was one of the reasons why the jet's weapons were controlled by a neural device]

I explained my reasons in other posts but Iceman continues to say that weapons are fired manually.
But also this thing is not written anywhere (or at least I didn't notice it).
It's true that also a big titan has got manual controls, but, as I said before, I don't know precisely the purpose of these manual controls (I tried to find out on the manual, but it's not written).

Firestorm said:

the manual quote says the big titans are "...controlled with the help of a neural link..." I take that to mean that moving the actual titan around is helped by the link. (this is supported by the Neural Sense being needed for the piloting skills)
figuring out where for the jock to shoot might be done via the battle computer, but a) the battle comp doesn't tell the guns when to shoot. it just tells the jock where to shoot. b) i doubt the guns are gonna go off unless the button/trigger/switch/insert-activation-method-of-choice is hit. c) once the button is hit, a signal is sent stright to the desired wepon, telling it to shoot.

But, about the medium, heavy and assault piloting skill, I noticed also that the manual says:

This skill is needed to pilot medium or heavy titans (up to 140t). These titans are piloted
by neural bridges, therefore neural sense and dexterity are the primary and secondary attributes

So neural sense is the primary attribute to pilot a major titan: it means that a major titan (medium, heavy and assault) is piloted mainly through the neural bridge device.

And, as I said in my previous post, my opinion is that there are some manual controls but they are emergency-controls, in case the neural device breacks down.

About the quote Firestorm made:

controlled with the help of a neural bridge

it can be intended in two ways: one is the way that Firestorm said, and the other one (mine) is that without "the help" of the neural bridge a jock is not able to pilot a major titan.
And I think my opinion is more close-fitting to the manual.

Also if it's impossible to use the weapons there are other things that It's possible to do...
Example:
1) I can order to TITAN B to jump, and then I could leave it fluctuating in the sky until its jump-ports finish their charge. So the titan will collapse to the surface.
2) I can eject the enemy jock.
3) I can order to TITAN B the self-destruction (if the new version of ToS:WS will have this improvement).
4) I can order to TITAN B to swim in a pool of lava or acid or to run off a cliff, or to flee from the battle.
So, also without the use of TITAN B's weapons, NWMs are quite lethal.

There are also other things to be said:

- If the major titans has got emergency manual-controls, the TITAN B's jock can try to regain the control of his/her titan.
That jock is not dead (and he/she isn't mind-controlled), and he/she is still inside the cockpit (apart in the case he was ejected in a forced way).
I don't think that he/she is powerless in the face of his/her defeat.
Probably the jock will try to re-gain the controls of his/her titan before it's too late, using the manual controls to bypass the battle-computer and the neural-bridge device (depending from his/her abilities and attributes).
Moreover if the battle-computer is very good (I mean a top quality computer) it will have some internal defenses like firewalls or antivirus (maybe also specific anti-nanos defenses).
Apart that, the radio link between TITAN A and TITAN B could be obstructed by natural obstacles: if you're controlling another titan with NWMs, and somebody attacks your titan forcing you to escape, the connection between your titan and the infected one could be interrupted if you move behind a mountain or a big hill.
Due to these reasons I think that the jock of the infected titan should be allowed to try to re-gain the controls.
So I proposed a periodical skill-check (every 50-60 seconds of game-time).
Maybe my proposal it's much simplistic, but, as I already said, we can discuss about this if you have other ideas.

- Maybe also the radio link could be stopped if TITAN B is hit by an EMP pulser, or if it is invested by radiation of an engine's explosion (which could disturb the communications).

- In case TITAN B's jock passes the first skill check, he/she will avoid that TITAN B get "frozen" and he/she will keep the controls of his/her titan.
But at every 50/60 game-seconds, he/she has got to do another time the skill check ('cause the NWMs are still resident on the TITAN B).

- If TITAN B is paralyzed, TITAN A's jock has got to pass a skill check after another 20/30 game-seconds to gain the control of TITAN B: if he/she doesn't pass that skill check, he/she will be prompted again at every 20/30 game-seconds ('cause the NWMs are still resident on the TITAN B).

- When TITAN B's jock passes the skill check to re-gain the control of his/her titan, it will also finish the paralisys. But after another 50/60 game-seconds he/she will be prompted again for a skill check to avoid the paralisys of TITAN B ('cause the NWMs are still resident on the TITAN B).

- It is possible to remove the NWM only when the battle is finished, at the factory: this means a surplus of expenses for the repairing of TITAN B. Maybe we should also consider NWMs disactivated if TITAN B is hit by an EMP pulser after he was infected.

- If TITAN B is hit for 2 or 3 times with the same weapon by the same titan, I think that it should be reduced the probability of TITAN B's jock to pass the skill check (or maybe it should be reduced the time before the TITAN B's jock is prompted for the skill check).

- If TITAN B is hit many times with NWM vector by different titans, the only effect of nanos is to paralize TITAN B, 'cause happens a conflict between NWMs when they try to reach a radio-link with their respective "owners".

- If a jock is not mentally prepared to tolerate the splitting-neural-radio-link [as I told before, TITAN A's jock must have an high electronic warfare ability ( > or = 70%), and also a good indirect fire ability ( > or = 50%), 'cause it's difficoult to control a titan when you're already controlling another one], he won't be able to keep the control of the other titan for a long time (maybe also remaining mentally scrambled for a while, or also dying for the neural shock).
We could discuss about establishing other limits about abilities of TITAN A's jock... but basically I think these limits I proposed are enough to balance the use of this weapon.

- TITAN A's jock cannot sustain two (or more) links in the same time: accepting a new link he/she will stop the previous one.

- If I remember well, the maximum weight for a weapon in ToS is 12 tons (the autocannon 20): the NWM vector should have a bigger weight than this one.
And it should occupy 3 slots. The number of the ammos should be very low (I think 3) and the price should be very high. Considering all these parameters, you should notice that, for a titan, it's not a weapon easy to carry (you cannot install it everywhere... in small titans maybe only in the cetral torso): and it's not also a decisive weapon ('cause it has got a few ammos only).

- I intended this weapon to be used mainly by major titans.
In fact I proposed some parameters which make this weapon difficoult to be installed on a recon or light titan: anyway, as you said, it's still possible to install it on recon and light models.
But if you do that, the effect of the weapon is lowered.
Well then the NWM vector is a sophisticated weapon for sophisticated targets: the recon and light titans are quite "immune" from it; and they also cannot use it properly.

- Anyway, also if installed on a recon titan, it permits to achieve good results.
Try to imagine about a recon titan which has got the NWM vector and a close combat weapon (like a flamethrower), and to an assault titan full of powerfull weapons and with an heavy armour.
The recon will strike the assault with the NWM vector, and then it has to hold out against the assault until the NWMs freeze it (50/60 seconds of game-time). When the assault is "frozen", the recon starts to make called-shots to the assault's cockpit with the flamethrower, killing the enemy-jock: and it wins the battle.
So my weapon permits to a recon titan to beat and assault model if it is used properly: it doesn't seem to me this weapon is so useless.

- Someone said that I want to create a GOD-weapon, and someone else said it's over-balanced. I think that is a good balanced weapon. It has got powerful effects, but it has got also many flaws which balance its effects. Many of the weapons that users on this forum proposed are similar to weapon I saw in many other games; so nothing original to be added to the gameplay. On the contrary nanos are like an innovation.

Maybe my entire idea seems to much complex if it's red on this post.
But in the game it would be a very simple weapon to use.
You have just to fire it and then you watch the effects.
There should be some subroutines of the game that do all the hard work.
Maybe it's true that to program NWM vector it would take a lot of time, but I proposed it for the sequel of ToS:WS. And I think they would have all the time they need to develop the subroutines.
But the important point is that I DON'T CARE IF SOMEONE WILL DEVELOPE THIS WEAPON, OR NOT.
It wasn't my intention to force anyone to develope it.

When I wrote the post "Sorry for the delay" I noticed that this idea was scorned (like some other ones that I wrote down), and so I started to write replies only to show that it could be a valid idea.
'Cause basically (I repeat this) I don't like when someone says that my ideas are bad on principle.

The thread started to grow up and some peoples got bothered by my insistence.
But I got bothered too 'cause I was still being criticized on principle and I don't like that.
Lately I started to see some offensive sentences and words.
I tried to make clear that I don't like this kind of attitude.
But I continue to see it.
If I don't answer back it's only 'cause I'm polite.
But I could change my mind.....
And about these things Iceman said:

EMP: how thorough can a discussion be if it's about something people don't know how it works? You can discuss all you want about its possible effects, but I guess you'll be doing it alone.

Well... So, when Mutt and You was discussing about EMP on the forum, was you doing it alone (or should I say "privately")?

Tell me, why do you base your argument on movies unrelated to BattleTech (where ToS gets origins), and not on the BattleTech universe?

I don't base my arguments on movies; I base them on the manual. That one was an example to explain what I think. period.

Moreover, when the game will be sold, many peoples who don't know anything about BattleTech universe will start to play with it.
What will you do when they will start to post on this forum, saying things that you don't like? Will you say to them that they have to know BattleTech universe before talking about the game?
It's a little ridicolous idea.
I know BattleTech, but is really so important to know something about BattleTech universe to play with this game or to talk about it?
Be realistic.



Megrez

[Megrez]

Now... let's talk about those two reasons which are against my idea.

Number 1:
CREDIBILITY OF NANOTECHNOLOGY?

One of the things that I like much in this game is that there are many futuristic weapons (in ToS v1.4, and surely also in ToS:WS), for example:
- cold light gun
- tesla bolt
- black ray gun
- gauss cannon
etc... (never seen one of these weapons in action in real-life).
Moreover the titans are motorized with nuclear engines, and they can have an armour made of a fantastic metal-alloy called "vicenium".
All these things don't exist in this moment. Probably they will in the future, but they're not real in this moment.
The same thing for nanos... They don't exist now but they probably will in the future.
So... what is wrong with nanos?
If all the other things are accepted as possible, why is impossible to accept nanos?
I think this is all due to a certain thing that we can call "suspension of desbelief".
It's a thing which is quite famous in comic-books For example: Why does nobody recognize Superman when he wears his glasses pretending to be a human?
Or why did Bruce Banner start to become Hulk after being exposed to gamma-ray, when all the peoples exposed to gamma ray die immediately or after a while with the cancer?
It's simple 'Cause when we read those stories we don't start to wonder about causes and consequences: we read those stories accepting all their premises in the way they are presented to us by the one who inveted them.
It's the same thing with games.
Maybe nanos will exists in the future, but, at the moment, they don't have any credibility in ToS, 'cause they are not in the game, and there isn't any other weapon similar to them.
When I wrote my ideas about nanos in the forum some people replied to say that they're sci-fi.....
Well..... for me also nuclear engines are sci-fi..... I don't notice the difference.
Maybe the difference is that in the game there are nuclear engines, and so they seem credible because of the suspension of desbelief.
Nanos aren't inside the game so they're not credible.
Well..... I don't like this thing but I can understand it.
Anyway I opened a post with some articles about nanotechnology..... I hope you will read it. In particular the document from NATO is very interesting.
Here's the link.

Number 2:
CHANGES TO THE GAMEPLAY?

If it would be developed a weapon that permits in some cases to take the control of your opponent, probably there would be some changes to the game-play.
People who play with ToS from a lot of time probably have got their tactics and their assurances about the games. A weapon like NWM vector probably would violate their cornerstones.
So they could think it's a dreadful idea.
It wasn't my intention to create problems, so from this post I won't talk anymore about NWM vector.
But I affirm this:
1) When you make sequels of a game you have to introduce new things..... if the sequel is too similar to the original one, maybe many people could think that the original is better than the sequel, and they won't buy it.
2) Introducing some new weapons with exotic-effects (not necessarily the NWM vector) would add some spice to the game, 'cause it will force also old players to find out new tactics.
3) Campaignes with unbalanced missions (with opponents superior in number and rank) would add some other spice.

Megrez

[Thorgrim]

As usual, you don't read what's been posted, and you use information arbitrarily.
1) If you know what happened, you know it was not a *bombing*, some guy flying by a wedding thought he was being shot at and decided to launch first and ask questions later.
2) If this is for me, then you should have noticed I never said the word "tradition", I used "ways". *You* used tradition, go figure why.
You pretend to know a lot about Afghanistan, nevertheless you "forget" they had already defeated the british. What did they do it with, rocks? Uh huh.
How do you know about the use of weapons in weddings? Are you Afghan? Were you ever there? A sword is a weapon, so is a knife.
My initial post was not about traditions, I know what it was about, Larkin knows too, you on the other hand don't have a clue. If you want to reply fine, just don't assume you know what it is about. It had nothing to do with Afghanistan.
About shooting to the air, I'm sure official ceremonies and funerals are very stupid things. Just like hunting and target practice and all that stuff. Oh, and let's not forget firecrackers and fireworks that everyone seems to enjoy so much - and which every year result in death and property destruction.
Maybe *you* should start a fund to buy blanks for all Afghan weddings. Or would that still be very idiot to you?

[Thorgrim]

Originally posted by Megrez

Well... So, when Mutt and You was discussing about EMP on the forum, was you doing it alone (or should I say "privately")?

I don't base my arguments on movies; I base them on the manual. That one was an example to explain what I think. period.

Moreover, when the game will be sold, many peoples who don't know anything about BattleTech universe will start to play with it.
What will you do when they will start to post on this forum, saying things that you don't like? Will you say to them that they have to know BattleTech universe before talking about the game?
It's a little ridicolous idea.
I know BattleTech, but is really so important to know something about BattleTech universe to play with this game or to talk about it?
Be realistic.

As you well know, we were discussing *real* EMP, not ToS EMP. But then it means nothing to you, right?

No you don't. What you think doesn't count. Period.

In all the years ToS is around, no one has misinterpreted the manual except you, even if not having any BT knowledge. Does that tell you anything?
Did I ever tell you you needed BT knowledge to talk about it? I refered you to BT to explain how things work, since you were "confused". And you know this. But like you've been pointing out, you don't like being beaten. Tough luck. And you can cut the "wounded ego" crap. You're trying to turn it into a snowball, but I don't give a rat's @$$.

[firestorm]

hmm... "disagree on principle..." seems like a lot more than "principle" was disagreed on.
with your weapon, duels would become a boring cakewalk if you had it, real games would lose their spice, and the game would become boring much faster than it does now. hell, i've been playing it for what, 3 years now, and i'm still not bored of it. whereas i've recycled probably 20 commercial games in that same period of time.
why duels would become a boring cakewalk: shoot NWM vector. get out of their range. enemy shuts down, has no support. bye-bye. the possiblility would mean both titans would try to have one: it would become "who gets the first shot off" which is not much fun.
why real games would lose their spice: Right end: when you say "3 shots" i'm assuming (i know, its a bad thing to do, but bear with me) you mean "3 shots per slot". (if i'm wrong, would help if you clarified.) 9 shots (so long as you can fit them) are plenty enough to shut down a team, even an 8-member one. 8 vurses 8, one side has a couple NWM vectors on them, they can shut down the entire enemy team. the only tactics and danger are getting enough shots off. Wrong end: it's not much fun watching your team butchered while they can't do anything. Trust me, i've had my entire team shut down due to engine explosions at once whilst the enemy killed them off. Ask Pete Y. after that happened a few times you wouldn't care any more. you sure wouldn't want to do it. your tactics would become either a) get the first shot off if you have NWMs, or b) don't get hit, which is ratehr difficult to do.
finally, from teh appearances, more people here either don't want it in, or don't care if it's in or not, than want it in. if you belive in democracy, majority rules. if you belive in monarchy, it sucks to be you, because the people with more power than you don't want it in.

one tip for any future suggestions you might have: if it's rejected by the populous, don't be insistant, or try to proove why it could exist, etc. either give it up (i've given up pages worth of ideas -- most before even posting them) or change it and try again. ask for constructive criticism, and build off it to make your wepon good enough.
ATM the NWM is still too powerful. as it is, if you're hit by it, you're screwed royally. you could say that being hit by a TB means you're screwed royally, but even most recon titans can survive a direct TB hit to the head. likely they'll only have 1 or 2 internals left, but that's better than nothing...

[firestorm]

one more thing: ok, so Titan A can shoot Titan B's guns. he can't aim them tho, can he?

ok i'm done.

[Megrez]

Hystorical notes about Afghanistan:
The independent state of Afghanistan was born in 1747, when the general Ahmad declared that Afghanistan was an independent nation and declared himself as the new King of Afghanistan.
His attempt to expand the afghan domination and afghan territories to India's detriment failed, 'cause it caused the military intervention of UK and Russia (at that time Russia was governed by a Zar).
Clashes between afghan army and UK's military contingents and russian army continued to happen until the early 1800.
In that period some internal dynastic disputes weakened Afghan leadership.
Russia and UK took advantage of this situation concordly subjugating Afghanistan.
In 1885 Afghanistan was practically under the control of UK and Russia. And in 1907 UK declared Afghanistan as a UK's protectorate.
But afghan pseudo-leadership's efforts to hinder UK's plans and influence caused a new war.
The afghan army defeated british occupation-contingent after a few years in which there was many bloody clashes: in 1919 was signed the Rawalpindi's treaty which determined the end of the war and declared definitevely the independence of Afghanistan.
In 1931 was approved the afghan Constitution.
In 1933 Mohammed Zahir was declared King of Afghanistan.
He was neutral during the second world war, and he continued to be neutral after that.
In 1946 Afghanistan became a member of O.N.U's assembly (O.N.U. or U.N.O if you prefer).
In 1964 Zahir promulgated a new Constitution: he did that to calm down the rising conflicts between the new middle class and the tribal aristocracy.
In fact the population of Afghanistan is composed by many tribes and ethnic groups, often in conflict the one against the each other; moreover there's a division between the tradionalists who live in the rural areas and the peoples in the big cities who follow a different life-style.
In the second half of sixties these conflicts achieved their climax, also because, after the end of the second world war, the trade of weapons at black market (in particular firearms) proliferated in those countries which was buffer states; Afghanistan was considered a buffer state in the new politic strategies due to the antagonism between U.S.A. and U.R.S.S. (soviet union), and both these nations started to provide with weapons the factions which supported their respective interests.
The generalized availability of weapons and the massive diffusion of firearms caused armed conflicts between tribes and factions.
This situation degenerated inexorably into an instability of institutions.
The 17th of July of 1973, while the King was abroad, a coup d'état, leaded by Mohammad Da'ud (the cousin of the King), abolished the monarchy and declared the republic. Zahir remained abroad in exile (for a long period he has been living in Rome).
But the new government, supported only by one politic faction, wasn't able to keep the leadership of the country.
In the April of 1978 a new coup d'état permitted to Nur Mohammad Taraki to gain that leadership: he was one of the leaders of the afghan communist party.
He intensified the bond of friendship with U.R.S.S.
But he was killed in 1979, and soon substituted by Hafizullah Amin (a member of Taraki's government): Amin was like a pawn in the hands of soviets.
When some new internal disorders started to menace the interests of soviet union, soviets decided for a military intervention and they occupied the Afghanistan.
They permitted to Babrak Karmal (one of the founders of the renewed afghan communist party) to gain the leadership.
Soviets probably was thinking to occupy Afghanistan for a limited period of time, until the situation would have been "bringed back to normal".
But the incapability of the new leader, and the guerrilla warfare by Mujaheddins (supported by U.S.A. with supplies of modern weapons), forced the soviets to keep a constant presence in Afghanistan.
I think that recent history is well-known by everyone: soviets retired their troopers from Afghanistan because of the military losses and because of the economic crisis which floored the U.R.S.S..
After a pale attempt to restore the republic, Afghanistan fell in the hands of talibans.
This means mullah Omar, Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda......


After these notes (I know something about afghan history...) it's time for me to reply.

If you know what happened, you know it was not a *bombing*, some guy flying by a wedding thought he was being shot at and decided to launch first and ask questions later.

I used the verb "to bomb" 'cause it seemed to me more striking, but I could have used "to fire" or "to shoot".
If you noticed, when I said:

It's to be hoped that, if it's necessary to bomb, the bombing has to be more precise, to avoid to strike innocent civilians.

I didn't mention in that sentence the "wedding", 'cause I was expressin' my general concept about the use of force in military interventions.
In fact at the end of that post I also said:

Affirming this I don't want to justify the error that was incontrovertibly made by the people who bombed during the wedding.

So probably you didn't catch the concept I wanted to express.

About the other thing, the term "ways" seems to me too generic, so I used "tradition". But, if in that sentence you substitute "traditions" with "way" (or also with "habit"), the meaning of that sentence doesn't change.

Example:
About the fact that in Afghanistan is a way to shoot the weapons in the air for a wedding.... well it's not really a way.

Then I said:

In Afghanistan the massive diffusion of firearms started during second world war, and it achieved its peak during the war against russian invasion.

As you can read I was talkin' about massive diffusion.
It's true that british was defeated by afghan army at the beginning of '900 (I know afghan history), but in that period Afghanistan was an underdeveloped country and, apart the army, firearms wasn't so diffused amongst common people.
The diffusion of firearms started after the second world war (due to the military supplies that U.S.A. and U.R.S.S. started to give to their political supporters).

And when I said that is a stupid thing to shoot in air during a wedding I was expressing my opinion (we're in democracy).
It seems to me that someone took my post about the wedding as personal attack and it wasn't.
Maybe it's time for someone to take a camomile.

Meg

P.S.: today I'm a little busy... tomorrow if I have time I will reply to the other posts. Anyway I will certainly do sooner or later.

[PrinceCorrin]

The argument over the wedding is getting a little more heated than is really necessary.
Someone once said that to err is human. A mistake is a mistake. A mistake with a large destructive machine is deadly, true.
I do have one question. If a large number of firearms where discharged in your general direction while flying over what could reasonably be considered hostile territory, and you took it to be a hostile action, would you simply ignore it?
I am not questioning whether it was a mistake, or whether the Afghans were shooting at nothing in particular, but a point of view makes all the difference in the world.
And it's hard to argue a point of view, when you are half a world in the opposite direction of the person with whom you are discussing.
So tragic it is, but somewhat understandable, if you really think about it.
General Robert E Lee said: "Thank God war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."
Bad things happen when people shoot at each other.

I live so that others may die. This is my lot in life. This is the path I have chosen. I do this to serve my country. I love my country. I do not pity those who attack her. I pity those they hide behind. I pity those who cower in caves, and tell others that to die killing innocent people is their ticket to paradise.

Politics are not my strong point. I do not wish to discuss this further, but if you must argue more, let us do so privately at least. Sectaagnusdei@aol.com.

[Megrez]

why duels would become a boring cakewalk: shoot NWM vector. get out of their range. enemy shuts down, has no support. bye-bye. the possiblility would mean both titans would try to have one: it would become "who gets the first shot off" which is not much fun.

mmm.... when a NWM vector strikes a titan, that not means that titan will mathematically shut down.
In fact after 50/60 game-seconds its jock will be prompted to a skill check.
If he/she passes the skill check nothing will happen, at least until the next skill-check after another 50/60 game-seconds.
A period of time of 120 game-seconds is enough to destroy a titan. So the attacker could be destroyed before the target gets immobilized.
And the period of time before the hit-titan gets immobilized could be longer if its jock passes other skill checks.
I wrote also:

To pass the check the jock should have a very high attribute in "Neural Sense", or a very high ability of "electronic warfare".

Attributes related to electronic warfare are intelligence and istinct.
They are also the attributes related to guided missiles' ability: I think the NWM vector is kinda a big guided missile, so, to fire that one, a jock needs guided missiles' ability and indirect fire's ability.
It means that a pilot who is able to "fire" properly a NWM vector, potentially is also able to immunize its titan against NWM's effects.
'Cause he/she will have the possibility to improve his/her warfare's ability to reach an high percentage.
So in case there's a duel between two titans armed with NWM vectors, quite surely the duel itself will be decided by the other weapons installed on each titans.
So it's not said that it will happen that thing that you mentioned:

it would become "who gets the first shot off" which is not much fun.

And generally, all the jocks who are able to fire guided missiles are potentially able to immunize their titans against NWM.
And also those jocks with an high survival ability (which I think is vital for close-combat titans' jocks).
So the NWM vector has got its best effects against major titans (medium, heavy or assault) armed with medium-distance weapons (due to the fact that, probably, jocks of those titans hasn't got the necessary abilities to face the effects of my weapon-concept).
But also this supposition is not always true. 'Cause also jocks who are able to use medium-distance weapons sometimes could pass the skill-check.
Moreover, also if a titan is paralized, its jock could regain the control... etc...

About the dimensions of the weapons and the problem of the ammos you're probably true saying I wasn't clear
I should have explained better my idea.

I said that the weapon itself occupies 3 slots.
I imagined my weapon is composed by 3 pieces:
(1) launching pad + (1) reloading device + (1) NWM vector missile
So 3 slots.
But the NWM missile occupies an entire slot (it's very big).
When I said the NWM vector has got 3 ammos I was meaning "the missile, ready to be lauched, plus other 2 missiles".
So 3 slots + 2 slots (one slot for each one of the two ammos): practically 5 slots (it's still possible to install it onto some recon's chassis).
So, if you want to add more ammos, you have to sacrifice a slot for every missile you want to upload on your titan.

About the other thing you asked I didn't understand your question, if you want we can talk about it privately, 'cause, as I promised, I don't want to continue to post on this thread.

Meg

[Megrez]

About democracy:

if you believe in democracy, majority rules. if you belive in monarchy, it sucks to be you, because the people with more power than you don't want it in.

one tip for any future suggestions you might have: if it's rejected by the populous, don't be insistant, or try to proove why it could exist, etc. either give it up (i've given up pages worth of ideas -- most before even posting them) or change it and try again.

I understood that my idea about nanos was not appreciated after the first post in which I tried to explain it, because of an high number of adverse replies.
I accepted this.
And probably I wouldn't have talked about it anymore after a few posts.
But someone said and tried to prove that my idea of a weapon based on nanos it's not a valid idea.
Saying that an idea or a concept is not valid or hasn't got valid foundations on the things reported by the manual it's different from saying that you don't like that concept or that you don't agree with it.
It's like to say: "this is not an idea, this is a rubbish-trash-thingy".
So, as I told in another post, I started to reply... not 'cause I want that the others accept my weapon-idea or develope it (I don't want to force anyone to do that), but only to show 2 things:
1) the concept my weapon is based on is valid.
2) you can say you don't like it, but technically it could be possible and it wouldn't be in conflict with things that are reported by the manual.
My insistence hasn't got the purpose to plead my case or the development of a nano-based weapon.
As I told in another previous post, I continue to reply only 'cause I don't accept people say my nano-weapon is not a valid concept 'cause they don't like it (and it's not your case Firestorm).
I appreciate best people who say clearly that they don't like my idea instead of people who report things from the manual to try to prove this weapon concept is not valid only 'cause they don't like it (or at least this is the impression I had...).




About the popolous thingy....
well... I noticed that actually 14 peoples expressed their preferences on my poll (me included).
(and 13 on yours poll about titan's class)
14 peoples are not a popolous; we are approximately a tribe (this is intended to be a joke)
Anyway there's the possibility that a lot of people reads this forum without expressing their ideas, so I'm not sure we're only 14 here.
Because "majority" doesn't like nanos I will end talkin' about them on this post.


P.S.: anyway I suggest you to check my poll 'cause NWM vector has got 3 votes (the same of the mine-launcher, and more than the EMP pulser, which has got only 2 votes).

[mutt2050]

Well I have not checked the forum in a while so this was a long read. Megrez I live in America which is a democracy and in America only one third of the population votes. All this means is that the other two thirds does not care about that vote. You need to accept the facts about your weapon. I would love to see a tommahawk size missile in the game, but why would you need such a large missile to care a payload of monomolecular robots. I would think you could fit millions of them in a hollow point .357 round. It seems to me you are grasping at straws to give your weapon a down side just to balance it out and justify it's use. We did not start out belittleing or ridiculeing you for your idea. We were just pointing out the faults and problems with it. You need to reread the posts me and Thorgrim had about the EMP and see we were hashing out the probability of the EMP weapons design. As for the sci-fi weapons you talked about like the cold light gun gauss cannon. I for one have seen a gauss cannon and seen it fire ( it did not fire as well as it was supposed to but it could have killed) and I have also seen an EMP bomb. As for the other weapons they all seem to be based on scientific principles. I am not saying you don't have good ideas or am I trying to put you down so please do not get defencive. I am only trying to point out the contridictions and inconsistancies of your weapon. In a real life war I would love to have such a weapon, but that is war and this is a game played for fun and enjoyment. Such a weapon would be too devistaing in the game to be fun. In real life war has only two rules 1.Destroy the enemy. 2.Survive the war. If you want to learn about war you will not learn about it from books you will learn about it from those who were there inthier voices and faces. Just remember this is just a game sometimes you will win sometimes you will lose but you can always play again.

[rosary]

I'm surprised that you say that 1/3 of the U.S population votes. I'd estimate it a lot lower. In fact, I didn't vote at the primaries because in my district we only had republican candidates and I'm offically 'undecided'. So either I could join the Republican party or not vote. How screwed is that? I'm not kidding.

[mutt2050]

I say only one third votes because that was the last statistic I had heard and that was for the last presidential election, but I agree with you that it is probable alot lower for most elections and fother votes.