Mutinous TF commanders!

[Roger Neilson]

I am trying to make sense of this game by playing Coral Sea over and over as the Americans. I have several times set my CV TF to go and patrol due south of Gili Gili in the hope that it will sit on station there and hit the japs as they come down to tkae Buna and Gili Gili. By keeping low down i hope to hit them as they first come into range of my carrier planes, having already run the gauntlet of the land air at Port Moresby.

Two games ago the TF commander decides on his own initiative it seems to steam way up to NE or Buna, behind the Jap Air TF - result is attacks from the Jap TF plus LBA from Rabaul...

Last game I set the same strategy, for some reason the Jpas this time head for Guadalcanal - and lo and behlod my TF commander decides to take his CVS into the Slot!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

How can i get them to obey my orders and stay on station?

[Jagger2002]

Delete double post.

[Jagger2002]

I just had a similiar situation.

Were your Task Force orders set to retire or react?

If the TF orders were set to react, the task forces did what they were suppose to do.

If the TF's orders were set to retire, then your commanders changed your orders to react.

I am not sure how you are to protect yourself from commanders changing orders and committing suicide.

What is weird is I play primarily Japanese. I don't ever recall a Japanese Carrier TF changing his orders. It seems to be an American thing.

[mogami]

Hi, I had this happen in 2 PBEM games. I am pretty sure I set do not react but CV TF's reacted long distances (I know about the small adjustment reaction if enemy CV are in range.) both times the reactions were disaters. In one game I had 2 CV TF's and had ordered both to retire back to port. One followed orders the other sped away the opposite direction to 5 hexes from a size 4 airbase on Lunga (and several TF's of IJN CV's)
While I think TF commanders should sometimes ignore/change orders even if it results in such disaters I feel much better knowing it wasn't me.

[Didz]

Unfortunately you cannot allow your TF commanders any degree of initiative in this game. The AI is just not sophisticated enough to cope.

The symptoms you mention are the classic response of any CV TF left with React to Enemy switched on.

In order to play this game effectively you must switch React to Enemy off on all CV task forces and take personal responsibility for them.

Also:

Never allow the computer to control your subs. They always head straight for Truk.

Never allow the computer to control your transports they frequently decide not to deliver the goods.

Never allow the ASW patrols the option to retire because they always do rather than attack an enemy submarine.

There's probably more but these are the main ones I've come across so far.

[Ron Saueracker]

Is there a setting that says "react with your brain" or "react as an admiral, not an idiot"?

[Jagger2002]

Perhaps the default setting for surface and air combat missions should be "retire" rather than "react".

If I am going to make a stupid error of omission, I would rather make a mistake that doesn't kill my carriers.

[Jagger2002]

Perhaps the default setting for surface and air combat missions should be "retire" rather than "react".

If I am going to make a stupid error of omission, I would rather make a mistake that doesn't kill my carriers and throw the game away at the same time.

[Didz]

Originally posted by Jagger2002
Perhaps the default setting for surface and air combat missions should be "retire" rather than "react".

If I am going to make a stupid error of omission, I would rather make a mistake that doesn't kill my carriers and throw the game away at the same time.

The problem with setting 'Retirement Allowed' is that thats exactly what they do. You can't keep a fleet at sea if you allow the TF commander the option to retire becuase he just turns his fleet around and heads straight for the nearest port.

[Henri]

Originally posted by Roger Neilson
I am trying to make sense of this game by playing Coral Sea over and over as the Americans. I have several times set my CV TF to go and patrol due south of Gili Gili in the hope that it will sit on station there and hit the japs as they come down to tkae Buna and Gili Gili. By keeping low down i hope to hit them as they first come into range of my carrier planes, having already run the gauntlet of the land air at Port Moresby.

If you had set your TF to "not react" and to "patrol" it would have stayed on station. You have two settings to play with, one to tell the TF whether or not to chase enemy fleets (if conditions are right) and another to tell them whether or not to turn for home when they reach the destination hex.The "patrol" order will make the TF stay on the destination hex, and the "not react" setting will prevent him from running after enemy task forces (but not from engaging them, presumably that is why you sent it there...).

I have yet to see a case where this did not work, so I am fairly sure that you had your task force set to "react".

Starting on p. 43, the manual describes exactly how various types of TF will act depending on the reaction/return settings.

Henri

[Mark W Carver]

Originally posted by Didz
Never allow the computer to control your subs. They always head straight for Truk.

Never allow the computer to control your transports they frequently decide not to deliver the goods.

I guess I'm lucky because I have computer controlled subs in New Britain, New Ireland and The Slot. What I do is control their movement out of port to a certain area, for instance around Gili Gili and the Slot, and once they reach their destinatio, I then switch them to computer contol.

AND

I've yet to have computer controlled convoys not deliver their goods. I currently have 4 on the map, all based out of different ports. There sending supplies to Port Morseby and Gili Gili.

I'm playing Scenario 17, historical setup as the Americans.

[Jagger2002]

Opps, should rephrase that:

Default should be "do not react" rather than "react" for air combat TF's.

I know that the first thing I do with every air combat TF is change the command to "do not react" from "react". I don't believe I have ever intentionally set an air combat TF to "react".

[Erik Rutins]

I've been playing this game at least as much as all of you and I just don't see how these things are as bad as some folks are making them out.

I've _never_ had a TF set on Do Not React move more than a hex or two in reaction. Frankly, I'll believe it when I see it - if someone can send me a save that shows their orders set to Do Not React and their carrier jumping across the map, I'll change my tune completely. Until then, I have to believe this is user error. I've done that plenty of times.

I leave a lot of stuff to the computer, including much of sub control. The computer runs them quite effectively as far as I'm concerned. I regularly see it position them in places other than Truk (though the fleet subs often get sent up there). It attacks effectively and the cordon it often sets up around Truk nets a lot of Japanese ships. Just because its strategy is different doesn't make it wrong.

Also, I keep seeing folks referring to Retirement and React as opposites. Um, nope. Retirement Allowed and Patrol/Do Not Retire are the opposites. And TFs with Retirement allowed will not immediately return to base. I use this all the time with my carriers and my transport TFs.

Learning how to use Retirement Allowed is a key part of the game. If you have a combat TF set to Retirement Allowed and given a hex in the ocean as a target, it will sail to it and if it doesn't find anything worth engaging, it will sail back home. If it is engaged along the way, Retirement Allowed gives the commander the latitude to avoid a superior enemy force. I've saved a few Carrier groups this way that would have been smoking wrecks if they'd been set to Do Not Retire. If you set a Transport TF to Retirement Allowed, they'll sail to the base you assigned, unload, then sail home. If they get within a spotted enemy carrier's range, they'll retire and wait until the enemy carrier clears off or they run out of fuel, then complete their mission (or head home if out of fuel).

Similarly, if you have a Transport TF unloading at a base and an enemy Bombardment TF is sailing in for a Tokyo Express Run, they'll stop unloading, retire a hex from the base and avoid the enemy ships (as long as a patrol plane or coastwatcher spotted the enemy ships on their way in and warned the Transport TF in time). This has saved many transports for me that would have been full of enemy shells and torpedos had I had them on Do Not Retire.

React is also a key setting for Surface Combat TFs in particular. You can post a surface combat TF within range of a friendly base but out of range of enemy LBA, setting them on Patrol / Do Not Retire to keep them on station and React to Enemy to get them to intercept any enemy TFs that try to hammer your base.

All in all, I appreciate that this can be complex and confusing at times, but the manual does explain it pretty well and it's part of being a good wargamer to be diligent in learning and exploring the various aspects of a wargame. If you've given up on some of these settings, give them another try - we didn't put them in because they were useless. The only setting I rarely ever use is React on Air Combat TFs. That's it - and that's one setting of a great number of combinations. I hope we'll have a chance in the future to do something about allowing a reaction range of sorts, but for now the existing orders are, in my experience, really quite flexible and useful.

Regards,

- Erik

[Didz]

Originally posted by Mark W Carver


I guess I'm lucky because I have computer controlled subs in New Britain, New Ireland and The Slot. What I do is control their movement out of port to a certain area, for instance around Gili Gili and the Slot, and once they reach their destinatio, I then switch them to computer contol.

AND

I've yet to have computer controlled convoys not deliver their goods. I currently have 4 on the map, all based out of different ports. There sending supplies to Port Morseby and Gili Gili.

I'm playing Scenario 17, historical setup as the Americans.

I know I think I saw you post this solution on another thread but I tried it myself and when I went back to check discovered all my computer controlled subs were heading for Truk so it just didn't seem to work for me.

As for the convoy thing I regularly use routine convoys and have never bothered checking carefully to see if they do deliver. But there are others who have monitored these thngs and swear that frequently they either don't load or don't unload the goods. I have certainly seen a Human controler convoy make an empty trip before but I put that down to me doing something wrong.

[Black Cat]

Originally posted by Erik Rutins
I've been playing this game at least as much as all of you and I just don't see how these things are as bad as some folks are making them out.

I've _never_ had a TF set on Do Not React move more than a hex or two in reaction. Frankly, I'll believe it when I see it - if someone can send me a save that shows their orders set to Do Not React and their carrier jumping across the map, I'll change my tune completely. Until then, I have to believe this is user error. I've done that plenty of times.

I leave a lot of stuff to the computer, including much of sub control. The computer runs them quite effectively as far as I'm concerned. I regularly see it position them in places other than Truk (though the fleet subs often get sent up there). It attacks effectively and the cordon it often sets up around Truk nets a lot of Japanese ships. Just because its strategy is different doesn't make it wrong.

Also, I keep seeing folks referring to Retirement and React as opposites. Um, nope. Retirement Allowed and Patrol/Do Not Retire are the opposites. And TFs with Retirement allowed will not immediately return to base. I use this all the time with my carriers and my transport TFs.

Learning how to use Retirement Allowed is a key part of the game. If you have a combat TF set to Retirement Allowed and given a hex in the ocean as a target, it will sail to it and if it doesn't find anything worth engaging, it will sail back home. If it is engaged along the way, Retirement Allowed gives the commander the latitude to avoid a superior enemy force. I've saved a few Carrier groups this way that would have been smoking wrecks if they'd been set to Do Not Retire. If you set a Transport TF to Retirement Allowed, they'll sail to the base you assigned, unload, then sail home. If they get within a spotted enemy carrier's range, they'll retire and wait until the enemy carrier clears off or they run out of fuel, then complete their mission (or head home if out of fuel).

Similarly, if you have a Transport TF unloading at a base and an enemy Bombardment TF is sailing in for a Tokyo Express Run, they'll stop unloading, retire a hex from the base and avoid the enemy ships (as long as a patrol plane or coastwatcher spotted the enemy ships on their way in and warned the Transport TF in time). This has saved many transports for me that would have been full of enemy shells and torpedos had I had them on Do Not Retire.

React is also a key setting for Surface Combat TFs in particular. You can post a surface combat TF within range of a friendly base but out of range of enemy LBA, setting them on Patrol / Do Not Retire to keep them on station and React to Enemy to get them to intercept any enemy TFs that try to hammer your base.

All in all, I appreciate that this can be complex and confusing at times, but the manual does explain it pretty well and it's part of being a good wargamer to be diligent in learning and exploring the various aspects of a wargame. If you've given up on some of these settings, give them another try - we didn't put them in because they were useless. The only setting I rarely ever use is React on Air Combat TFs. That's it - and that's one setting of a great number of combinations. I hope we'll have a chance in the future to do something about allowing a reaction range of sorts, but for now the existing orders are, in my experience, really quite flexible and useful.

Regards,

- Erik

Save Game on the way to you. The CV TF are set to do not react.

I have had this twice, maybe more. In the file I`m sending I`m up near PM with Fletcher ignorning my retirement orders and jumping 5 hexs to engage 4 fresh Japanese CV`s with his 2 that had been bombing a BB TF all day and therefore had very high fatigue pilots, the US strikes were wiped out and the CV`s sunk.....Game Over.

Same thing in another Game up in Lunga, Set to do not react and Sprunce charges a Japanese 4 CV TF with tired pilots and gets wiped out by them and the Betty`s. Game Over


Now you say you not getting it but it seems that more then a few of us are, and I think it a _Bug_ , perhaps connected to moving through a certain Hex, ( I am am sure the Minelayers not moving up to Lunga is conected to this ) or some other interaction that`s hard to reproduce in a Game with a lot going on.

Nevertheless it`s a Game Killer.

Playing the most recent Patch.

PS: Where to send the Save File, seems your Forum prefs are set not receive EMails here ???

[Sabre21]

I too have had my carriers on the US side react up to 8-9 hexes...after the first few times that happened I switched to Patrol/Do not react. As for the Japanese, they only have ever reacted a few hexes at most. My subs I leave on computer controlled. Both sides seem to run them very effectively...maybe too good. I had the US subs set up wolfpacks east of Rabaul slaughtering ap's going into shortland, in the slot, around and in Rabaul and Truk and just about anywhere the Japs conducted an operation.

Andy

[Didz]

Originally posted by Sabre21
I too have had my carriers on the US side react up to 8-9 hexes...after the first few times that happened I switched to Patrol/Do not react. As for the Japanese, they only have ever reacted a few hexes at most. My subs I leave on computer controlled. Both sides seem to run them very effectively...maybe too good. I had the US subs set up wolfpacks east of Rabaul slaughtering ap's going into shortland, in the slot, around and in Rabaul and Truk and just about anywhere the Japs conducted an operation.
Andy

The important difference I have noted is that AI controlled TF's will react but rarely if ever wander into LBA range of player controlled bases, whereas TF's on the players side seem to ignore the AI's LBA's when reacting which is why I keep the setting firmly on Do not React for my surface and Air combat TF's.

Subs I keep on manual control becuase despite assurances to the contrary as soon as I switch to computer control they make a b-line for Truk. Mind you this was #17 Allied so perhaps their behaviour varies by scenario.

Incidently, the funniest thing I've seen so far was a Bombardment TF that finished its preparatory movement phase enroute from Shortland to Gilli Gilli in an FVH occupied by three of my subs. It hung there for a second and then displaced to an adjacent hex as though it had spotted a periscope and changed course at the last minute. The important point being the the hex it displaced to was not en-route to Gilli Gilli (its target) and that reaching it actually involved a reversal of course. Needless to say none of my subs got a shot off.

[Rex Bellator]

Just to confirm what Black Cat and others have said. In my current PBEM game I had a USN 2 CV TF attempt to strike a IJN 3 CV TF and inflict almost no damage on the first day, but as usual lose masses of Dauntlesses to the horrendous flak.

Therefore I ordered the CV TF out of there the following move and back to Luganville on 'Do Not React' to replenish the depleted airgroups. I knew that a 2nd day of action would be most unwise with my much reduced strike capability.

Unfortunately Spruance thought better of it, reacted 1 hex toward the IJN CV TF and promptly had the Hornet smashed to pieces

Oddly he decided to retire properly on the 3rd day with exactly the same orders settings.

Didz - The funniest (?) Bombardment I've seen is as the IJN player. I had taken Cairns and based some heavy ships there under a mass of Zeores on the captured airbase, then ordered them to bombard the big airbase at Cooktown. A tiny journey of a few hexes straight North along the Australian coast.

That night the Bombardment TF set sail and swung right out through the gap in the coral way out into the Coral Sea, finishing their move closer to Gili Gili than Cooktown. They then loitered there for 2 days before making their run in, after getting heavily bombed from the airbase they should have smashed on the first night :rolleyes: