Diplomacy?

[lordhoff]

Has anything been said on changes to the diplomatic system? That is what makes/breaks a game of this sort as that is what makes it replayable time after time. I was disappointed with the limited selections in the old game and will base my buy/no but decision on how much better diplomacy is. There was a lot more to treaties then the afterthought system of the old game.

[tgb]

Diplomacy is unchanged - but are you sure you're thinking of CoG? I'd hardly call the diplomacy an afterthought.

[Joram]

Diplomacy has indeed been left largely unchanged though there are some tweaks to it.  I guess I too wonder why you say it feels like an afterthought because there are a large variety of options you can pursue.  What in particular are you referring to as far as things absent?
 
 

[lordhoff]

There is no way to name specific countries a treaty applies to (EX: mutual defense if attacked by Russia), no way to designate areas of interest as treaty terms (EX: OE might wish to offer the incentive of swearing off on Morocco to get a defensive alliance), no way to state treaty conditions such as "only applies if two countries declare war on "x"", and no way to create a purely defensive treaty (alliances were considered offensive in nature and are severe reasons for alarm by neighbors whereas a defensive alliance was much less so).

Perhaps "an after thought" was too harsh. More like not given the effort that other parts of the game received. I was just plain disappointed at the lack of flexibility. Or perhaps I am just spoiled; Victory Games (Avalon Hill subsidiary) "Empires at Arms" board game was just so enjoyable for me that the counters are difficult to read. I may have been expecting too much.

[Joram]

Those are pretty good ideas really but also add considerable complexity.  I would suggest keep the ideas coming and maybe Eric could consider some of them. 

FWIW though
1) You can ask a nation to swear off Morocco by respecting it's neutrality.  
2) You can have a defensive treaty by having a mutual protection pact but you cannot make it conditional to certain countries attacking (e.g. declare war on Russia if it attacks but if France attacks you are on your own or in affect on 2+ countries per your example).  A mutual defensive pact by the way is not the same as an alliance in game terms.

[cdbeck]

Seriously, of all the parts of CoG, I would say that diplomacy is one of the MOST flexible and well thought out parts of the game. I have never seen a <working> system as detailed in any other computer game. Empire in Arms for PC had, perhaps, a more detailed system - but it was difficult to use, had a terrible UI, and the options were poorly documented (the same could be said about much of that game). CoG, on the other hand, is much more clear, gives just enough to be workable without being bogged down (as Joram says, that sort of thing would add to the complexity of an already massively complex game). I thought there was a way to make exceptions [i.e. Mutual defense unless attacked by "X"] but I loaded up the old game and didn't see it. Still, I'm pretty impressed withe the diplomacy.

BTW, what is the difference between Dec. Alliance and Enforced Alliance?

SoM

[Joram]

You can't break an enforced alliance over the timespan indicated.&nbsp; You can break a declare alliance since it's just declared on that moment of time.&nbsp; In the latter case the AI may choose or be forced to break the alliance though generally they won't as long as they like you, unless forced to by treaty.&nbsp; In the former case, you wouldn't normally ask that for a friendly nation (though I suppose you could try) but it's a good way of keeping an alliance with a nation you forced to surrender.

[lordhoff]

Empire in Arms for PC had, perhaps, a more detailed system - but it was difficult to use, had a terrible UI, and the options were poorly documented (the same could be said about much of that game).

That's why I didn't bother with buying that one. As I said, though, I was probably expecting too much. AI's are hard enough to program for regular game functions let alone something as complex as diplomacy. With the board game, you could pretty much write as made you happy. [:)]
In other ways, it was better then I expected and I'm guessing, that with seven other human players, quite a few things could be done via house rules concerning diplomacy.

[cdbeck]

Yeah, that was what I was going to suggest. In a PBEM you could actually send "missives" and play a diplomatic game outside of the CoG engine.

[Hard Sarge]

BTW, what is the difference between Dec. Alliance and Enforced Alliance?

I think you mean enforced peace, in a Dec Alliance, it is a normal Defend minded pak, you will DOW on anybody who DOW on your Ally, or they will DOW on anybody who DOW on you (with in reason, other treaties, conflicking wars, and what not)

Enforced peace, I will say, offer Peace to Prussia for 5 years, I swear, I will not attack Prussia at any time over the next 5 years (if I break that treaty, it is going to hurt me much more then a Dec Alliance)

tie that in with a Royal Wedding and you really don't want to break it

[cdbeck]

Nope, HS, I meant Enforced Alliance - from Joram's AAR:



It is the one right under Enforced Peace. But Joram's explanation makes sense to me now.

SoM

[Hard Sarge]

ahhh, my bad, I got the names mixed (also, I don't normally use that one , most Nations do not ally with me, or for long at least \

from the in game help screen

Relations [*] Declare War – The specified nation declares war on another specified nation. [/ul] [*] Surrender – A specified nation surrenders to another specified nation.[/ul] [*] Declare Alliance – An alliance is declared between the specified nations.[/ul] [*] Embargo – A nation’s provinces do not provide Merchants with income.[/ul] [*] Pledge of Defense – A specified nation agrees to declare war on all the enemies of another specified nation for the duration of the clause.[/ul] [*] Enforced Peace – Specified nations may not declare war on one another for the duration of the clause.[/ul] [*] Enforced Alliance – An alliance is declared between the specified nations. This alliance may not be broken for the duration of the clause.[/ul] [*] Respect Neutral – The specified nation agrees not to declare war on a specified independent country for the duration of the clause.[/ul] [*] Refuse Alliance – The specified nation may not enter into an alliance with another specified nation for the duration of this clause. This also breaks any ongoing alliances between the specified nations. [/ul]